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no trolls allowed open thread

Open Thread for Non-Personal Stuff. No Trolls, No MRAs.

trollhunter

I had an interesting conversation recently with a woman on Twitter who told me that my policy of letting MRAs and misogynists comment here, at least so long as they’re not abusive, was keeping her and others she knew from joining in the conversation; she wanted a place to discuss MRAs where she didn’t have to deal with them.

I know a lot of the regulars here like engaging with the trolls and MRAs who stop by, but I’d like to create some space here for commenters who want to discuss the issues in a Troll- and MRA-free zone.

So I thought I’d try starting a new kind of Open Thread: A No-Troll, No-MRA, No-Misogynist, No-Rape-Apologist, No-Douchebag Thread to discuss the issues I cover on the blog and anything related to that: Misogyny, MRAs, PUAs, MGTOW, the “Red Pill,” and so on. Enjoy!

Oh, and if a troll wanders in, or if someone starts being douchey, ignore them and send me a note. I’ll delete their comments and ban them. No warning, no moderation, straight ban.

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pecunium
6 years ago

I’m for it. Safer Spaces for the win.

Ally S
6 years ago

Great idea, David.

taitaisanchez
6 years ago

I took the Red Pill and now Advil has taken my headache away.

Still, life’s going relatively decently. I picked up Mario Kart 8. Anyone else pick it up? I’m taitaisanchez on Nintendo Network.

LBT (with an open writeathon!)

I admit, I’m here partly FOR the troll-whacking, but I totally understand why others might not want that.

Auntie Alias
Auntie Alias
6 years ago

I like this idea a lot. It’ll be handy for posting links we find about other misogynist awfulness so we don’t derail comments on unrelated posts – something I do but feel a bit guilty about. You might even score some worthwhile leads from it, David.

BritterSweet
6 years ago

I want to share this adorable video I recently found. I originally wanted to save it to use as brain bleach, but there’s nothing wrong with cuteness just for cuteness sake.

SaltPickles
SaltPickles
6 years ago

Hi. A long time ago – like maybe a year, David asked us about our experience with MRA’s and most of us hadn’t had any direct involvement with them.

Now I seem them all over the internet. Sites that allow comments always had sexist commenters, mostly of the old fashioned variety, but I can’t go to any mainstream news or current affairs sites now that don’t have MRA buzzwords and irrationalisms crawling all over the comment sections. Any time there is a news story on the Guardian that even tangentially touches on feminism, gender relations or sexual violence creates a comment thread that is 30% MRA bullshit and the rest people horrified by what they are saying.

And then my brother came out with few MRA buzzwords in actual real live speech- hypergamy was one. He isn’t an MRA in the slightest but just an ordinary person in their 20’s who unconsciously absorbs sexism when he can’t be bothered thinking through his ideas, He didn’t realise where those words come from, although he had vaguely heard of the MRA. It just seems to be some of the new ideas and vocab that is circulating around his mostly male friendgroup.

I dread the day when my father actually finds out how to use the internet, because the MRA will have him in a shot. A year ago I thought the chances he’d ever hear about them were pretty slim.

cloudiah
6 years ago

Safe threads is a great idea!

I still know not one single man away from the keyboard who uses MRA terminology; there are a few programmers I was kind of giving the side-eye to, just because they fit the demographic so perfectly, but I’ve since gotten to work more closely with them and can safely say they are okay dudes.

pinkfluffyunicrone
6 years ago

As a 39 year old woman who lives with a cat and a boyfriend, has never been married, and is profoundly happy- what is with the resurgence of the word “spinster”? Seriously? Are we bringing back Victorian insults?

davidgerard
6 years ago

I’m that guy from RationalWiki. (Regular contributor, Board of Trustees 2014 member – we’re a very small charity – I run the Twitter.) We’ve been increasing our manosphere coverage lately – e.g. Manosphere, which links to most of the MRA-related topics.) We have a pile of contributors working hard on gender issue stuff. We would GREATLY welcome your ideas, contributions and sensible critiques. (We get a ton of the less-sensible variety; I promise that if you are polite and sensible, we will do our best to respond sensibly. It’s not hard to be less rude than an MRA who thinks he’s being polite.) I am quite proud to be able to say that RationalWiki is one of the few skeptic spaces that isn’t actively hostile to people other than the pasty white nerdboy audience, and welcome your assistance in keeping up our mission to encourage coherent joined-up thinking in the world that people actually live in. Thank you 🙂

Falconer
6 years ago

@taitaisanchez:

Still, life’s going relatively decently. I picked up Mario Kart 8. Anyone else pick it up? I’m taitaisanchez on Nintendo Network.

Sadly, I cannot afford a Wii U. I am saving up to buy D&D Next instead. But I understand that it’s loads of fun and the most popular feature is the slow-motion replay camera. I suppose there’s some slight chance you’ve escaped noticing the Luigi Death Glare meme that blew up this week.

Pabu
Pabu
6 years ago

I know that this forum is for MRA stuff, but since this thread was shared in response to an article about misogyny as it relates to the Elliot Roger’s shooting, and the MRA type people who I was dueling with in the comments section both shared it and supported it, I kind of want to hear what everyone else here thinks.

http://thoughtcatalog.com/jamie-varon/2014/05/sexual-assault-problem-nuanced/

It starts out reasonably enough, but it just gets worse as it goes. The writer is pretty out of touch with feminist issues.

fruitloopsie
fruitloopsie
6 years ago

Saltpickles

“Now I see them all over the internet”

http://imgace.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/idiots-everywhere.jpg

Every site about women I go to there are comments saying: ‘women do it too!’, ‘what about teh menz’, etc. Every. Single. Site. It’s SUPER annoying of course we care about teh menz and we know that women do it too! But stop derailing the conversation and making it about you. There other places to go to talk about your problems. Its also very insensitive that’s like telling a child who lost his parents: ‘Other kids lost their parents so you have no reason to cry.’

taitaisanchez
6 years ago

Sadly, I cannot afford a Wii U. I am saving up to buy D&D Next instead. But I understand that it’s loads of fun and the most popular feature is the slow-motion replay camera. I suppose there’s some slight chance you’ve escaped noticing the Luigi Death Glare meme that blew up this week.

The Luigi Death Glare/Road Rage would be funnier if my shitty “BUT IM A NICE GUY” ex roommate didn’t cosplay as Luigi.

maistrechat
6 years ago

@davidgerard I’m glad to hear it about RatWiki. I used to edit there (under a different name) and was never really satisfied with the state of the MRA article. I think the issue at the time (this was about a year and a half ago or so, I’m not sure if it’s changed since then) was that the article was WAY to focused on their “platforms” (circumcision is bad! Men should be able to get custody of children too!*) and so ended up treating it as a far more legitimate ideology than it really is.

I think (once again, referring to the state of the article in January 2013) the article could be considerably more snarky and would do better pulling more quotes from the MRAs themselves instead of position statements.

*I live in a state where it was actually illegal for widowers to maintain custody of their children. It took a Supreme Court case to deal with that. Now I have a family member fighting with an abusive ex for custody, and it seems that the state has overcorrected itself considering how much success he’s having despite his obvious lack of desire to even try to provide a safe environment or even expend minimal effort in parenting.

fruitloopsie
fruitloopsie
6 years ago
fatherteresapodcast
6 years ago

Reblogged this on fatherteresablog.

fruitloopsie
fruitloopsie
6 years ago

Auggziliary

Lol they’re so funny when they run and dat pretty music

davidgerard
6 years ago
Reply to  maistrechat

@maistrechat We hope not to suck. (Of course we suck. It’s a wiki, it’s on the internet, it’s loaded with idiots.) I think the MRA stuff has improved tremendously, in both accuracy and range. The MRAs showing up on the talk pages (every. bloody. day.) have actually helped sharpen it. We do what we can, in a slow infuriating wiki-not-actually-run-by-anyone sort of way. Our gracious host continues to provide top-quality reference material of course. We probably do a terrible job, but we try our best! Mostly. When we remember.

Winter Walker
6 years ago

It seems that I’m not the only one who’s been noticing *WAY* more MRAsshat commenting online. Anyone else getting scared here? Does anyone even know how many of these guys there are out there? Are they gaining ground, or are they just an extremely vocal, obnoxious minority?

@unicrone: I kind of like the word spinster for describing myself. Single woman, over 35, with a beloved cat and a love for anachronism. I know it’s meant to be an insult, but I’m thinking of queering up and reclaiming the word “spinster”. Oooh, I can just see a badass tat of a spiked black spinning wheel… XD

M
M
6 years ago

@Winter Walker: They’re still a bit of a “fringe” group I suppose, but there are many of them.
I am not sure if you have heard of the author Michael Kimmel, but, he has a really great book called “Angry White Men: American Masculinity At The End of an Era”. In the book he specifically discusses the ONLINE MRA movement/trend in great detail….he talks about the type of men that seem to be inclined to participate in the movement, a lot of the myths or lies MRA’s like to spread online, etc. He also has various other chapters in the book in regards to rampage school shooters, physical/sexual violence against women AND men, etc. It was a very interesting read, and has given me a lot of the answers I was hoping to find.

The amusing thing about the book is…MRA’s really hate it haha. I’v seen Paul Elam and others complaining and ranting about the book in the manosphere.

http://www.amazon.ca/Angry-White-Men-American-Masculinity/dp/1568586965

Auntie Alias
Auntie Alias
6 years ago

Winter Walker, It’s hard to judge whether it’s become worse. It seems like there was a perfect storm a couple of years ago with Steubenville, Maryville, the birth of Slutwalk, and related events that unleashed a misogynist backlash that is only getting worse.

I try not to think about how widespread it is. I hope what I see online is a small subset of the population that takes advantage of anonymity to express their rage. As with other forms of hatred, it bothers me a great deal that bigots can promote hate, threaten, and harass with impunity. This is probably a minority viewpoint but I believe there should be stricter limits on hate speech.

pinkfluffyunicrone
6 years ago

Winter Walker- I also like the idea of reclaiming the word “spinster”- I sort of want to create a t-shirt with a picture of an awesome female dj with a cat on her shoulder, spinning records with the word “spinster” on it.

Lex-Man
Lex-Man
6 years ago

I only stumbled upon this site a few days ago and wanted to know how much harassment women face on a daily basis? I listened to the radio show that was posted a few days ago and a lady on it said that woman often try to spend the shortest time possible getting between locations because of the amount of harassment faced by men. Is it something that happens everyday, week or month? I have heard stories from women I know but I thought it was a rare/ freak occurrence not a regular thing.

fruitloopsie
fruitloopsie
6 years ago

This is random but I just found this it’s called: ‘feminism is bullshit’ on tumblr and it’s pretty more hateful garbage.
However I do find a few things quite hilarious like this line for the site:

‘A blog about one man’s quest to stop the evils of feminism’

http://youtu.be/E5j4DIellR4

Ann Somerville
6 years ago

I’m that woman you conversed with. And thank you, David 🙂 Been struggling with some hateful males over the last week so it’s wonderful when a guy actually listens! Plus my background stress level since the Rodger killings has gone way up, so anything that gives me/us a break is also wonderful.

banshee
banshee
6 years ago

I like that idea, pinkfluffyunicrone!
I don’t keep up with the latest online trends, but imo, “spinster” beats “old maid” any day of the week. That’s the epithet I grew up with. Thankfully people don’t use that one anymore!

pallygirl
pallygirl
6 years ago

When I have more time, I have decided I shall learn to spin. And then I shall correct anyone who refers to me as a spinSTER to say, no it’s pronounced SPINster. I’m also wanting to learn Irish crochet and tatting. Tatting looks really hard to master (as does spinning).

I would love to learn to spin my own yarn, as I knit and crochet. I admire anyone that can do that craft.

And this is so cool, ignore that it’s from “Lamebook” as this is not in the slightest bit lame:
http://www.lamebook.com/brightened-my-day/

fruitloopsie
fruitloopsie
6 years ago

Pallygirl

Just read the comments and on the few my face and was thinking:

http://www.captionite.com/view/23916/

me and not you
me and not you
6 years ago

tatting isn’t terribly hard, if you start with needle tatting. The hard part about shuttle tatting is the ‘flip’ and I have a hard time controlling tension that. Go visit ravelry, there are tons of folks there willing to give advice!

me and not you
me and not you
6 years ago

@auggziliary – people think that all the time!

Also, that video is terrifying #notallcatpeoplearelikethat

Ally S
6 years ago

@auggz

:: adds video to list of things i should never watch while on acid ::

pallygirl
pallygirl
6 years ago

@fruitloopsie: I figured the comment section was going to be bad and so made the decision not to read it. I think the photo and FB comment are just great.

@me and not you: oh gosh, I didn’t realise there was more than one type – I’m way below noob status. Thanks for the tip about Ravelry, I’m already on there because I knit and crochet, and hadn’t realised that tatting was also included. 🙂

pallygirl
pallygirl
6 years ago

@auggz: what environment did they create that in? I can’t work out the engine and there’s no information in the video blurb area.

me and not you
me and not you
6 years ago

@pallygirl – we’re a bit rogue there because (last time I checked) we weren’t included with other fiber arts. Sometimes our projects get taken down for not being knit/crochet 🙁 But there are a number of tatting communities on the boards.

pallygirl
pallygirl
6 years ago

@me and not you: ooooo, a rogue group. Sounds like fun. I’ll check it out, but have 3 crochet projects and 1 knitting project on the go that I. Must. Finish. First.

Just found this site: http://games.usvsth3m.com/the-theme-tune-of-your-life/

Mine is Kenny Roger’s Lady. Noooooooooooooooooooooooo. I think that maybe it should be what was on the NZ #1 chart. I shall investigate to see what my culturally-specific life tune is….I shall report back.

rtanen (@rtanen)
6 years ago

I had the joy of overhearing loud discussion of MRA talking points in Comp Sci today. Irritating 13:1 gender ratio. There’s lots of girls in high-level math, why aren’t any of them in Comp Sci with me? This time it was about child support, because that is definitely a problem that high school students face. I’ve overheard stuff about feminists being crazy before. It’s so ridiculous to think that our school should actually enforce the dress code for boys, right? And it’s just silly to actually care that our school does no assemblies about sexual harassment and assault and not being a bystander, yes?

pallygirl
pallygirl
6 years ago

Yes, did not translate cross-culturally. For me, it’s actually Shaddup You Face (which kittehserf should remember too!)

katz
6 years ago

Just found this site: http://games.usvsth3m.com/the-theme-tune-of-your-life/

Oh dear, Vertical Horizon.

pecunium
6 years ago

pallygirl Spinning isn’t that hard. This is not to say it’s not frustrating, nor that it isn’t full of subtleties and quirks. A couple of us here spin, and would be more than willing to help you figure things out.

I could go on for pages/hours about it; both spindles and wheels. Charkhas and supported spindles, flyer vs. bobbin drive, wools vs. plant vs. other fibers. Plying and cabling and worsted vs. woolen and…..

kittehserf
6 years ago

For me, it’s actually Shaddup You Face (which kittehserf should remember too!)

Oh thank you for reminding me of that, not! 😛

Nequam
Nequam
6 years ago

I sort of want to create a t-shirt with a picture of an awesome female dj with a cat on her shoulder, spinning records with the word “spinster” on it.

If you want to be really fun about it, feature an older DJ like DJ Ruth Flowers:

or DJ Wika (turn on closed captioning, it’s in Polish):

kittehserf
6 years ago

Don’t forget, all you fibre-craft type people, we have a WHTM group on Ravelry – Crafty SPINSTERS.

http://www.ravelry.com/groups/crafty-spinsters

Tarnished
6 years ago

@Lex-Man

In my personal life, harassment is a very rare/once in a blue moon occurrence. Maybe once every 6 months or so? Even then, I’ve never been in a situation where I was afraid or felt truly threatened. Usually it’s a guy (though twice it has been a woman) who feels they should have the right to touch my shoulder/waist/hand when they’re trying to flirt with me. I have a not insignificant touch phobia though, so it freaks me out more than it might someone who doesn’t. It’s easy to walk away from this, at least for me.

For other women, it may not be, and this needs to be taken into consideration. I’ve found that many women think they still have to smile or be polite to someone who is objectifying/harassing them, but I have no qualms in calmly but sternly letting the jerkface know that their words/actions aren’t something I want. I also don’t do any drugs, am not a fan of drinking, and don’t tend to frequent places with crowds, so that also helps to limit (but doesn’t eliminate) the potential for harassment in environments where I’m not in full control.

However, I think it’s *incredibly* important to realize that my definition of harassment may be very different than someone else’s. I have an extremely laid back personality, and work in the gaming industry, and experience the awkward/nerdy/geeky male subculture every day. Something that I would laugh at or not mind could potentially be harassment to another woman.

It’s always a good idea to err on the side of caution, and if a woman (or man) says “hey, I find that harassing” or “I don’t appreciate that”, then it’s up to you to change. Even if I think that person is being a prude or lacks a sense of humor it is up to *me*, as someone who cares about other’s feelings, to alter my behavior so they are more comfortable.

Hope this helps answer your question.

kittehserf
6 years ago

Lex-man – have a look at the #YesAllWomen; it’s about harassment and worse.

pallygirl
pallygirl
6 years ago

@pecunium, my goal will be to start learning next calendar year. I think that is a realistic date given my current health and workload/study load.

Thanks for the offer of help, I hope I won’t wear it out by asking too many questions as no-one I know spins so I have nobody local I can bug. And I’m a bit leery of websites as some of them will be marketing their own products and their advice may not be completely unbiased.

Something for me to look forward to next year! 🙂

fruitloopsie
fruitloopsie
6 years ago

Pallygirl

@fruitloopsie: I figured the comment section was going to be bad and so made the decision not to read it. I think the photo and FB comment are just great.

It was! 🙂

deniseeliza
deniseeliza
6 years ago

I often enjoy the vigorous troll-smashing that goes on here. At one blog that I used to read a lot (but not so much anymore) the comment section was never very lively, but it was largely dominated by a couple genteel homophobes/sexists/racists/pro-gun types. So when I say genteel, they couch their nasty beliefs in reasonable tones and the blog runner never shoo’ed them away because they never used profanity or made overt personal attacks.

They were the type who would deny, for example, that calling that Seattle Seahawks football player a “thug” was racist because there was no “proof” that everyone who ever used the word “thug” had racist intentions. And then if you argue that “thug” is used in reference to black people more than white people they would argue back that while that may be the case, clearly “thug” is sometimes used towards white people as well, therefore the only prudent thing to do is throw up your hands and declare that we’ll never know if racism really happened in this instance.

At least here we can mock, attack, and wish legos upon the types like that, no matter how “reasonable” their tone is.

However, it is also nice to have a space where we don’t have to worry about it at all. Yay!

pinkfluffyunicrone
6 years ago

Thanks for all the hilariousness regarding the word “spinster”- I’ve actually been a little bummed out by the word. It’s been years and I am still trying to undo the brainwashing the PUA (Pick up Abuser- I refuse to think of these dudes as artists) from hell did to me. I’m fighting with that little voice inside me that tells me I am worthless.

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