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antifeminism antifeminist women gross incompetence lying liars MRA oppressed men

The E-Day Concert that Wasn’t: The Canadian Association for Equality turns a PR disaster into a PR catastrophe

o-EDAY_large3

MRAs seem to think that they can spin their way out of pretty much anything. And on the internet, particularly in their own little echo chamber, they can kind of get away with it. It’s when they venture out into the real world that they run into some trouble.

Take, for example, the mad spinning that accompanied the implosion of the Canadian Association for Equality’s “E Day” concert scheduled for last weekend. CAFE, you may recall, is a Canadian Men’s Rights group that’s probably most famous for organizing a series of talks by Men’s Rights-friendly folks on Canadian campuses that, well, caused a tiny bit of a stir.

Oh, sorry. The group says that even though its “focus is currently on men and boys … [W]e do not consider ourselves a Men’s Rights Group.”

Anyway, so this non-Men’s Rights group decided to hold a concert on Toronto Island celebrating “Equality Day,” a holiday they made up just for the occasion. They found a venue, got some sponsors and even managed to convince a bunch of bands to sign on.

Everything was ready to go until a few days before the concert was scheduled to happen, when some of the people who had been roped into the event discovered just what they had gotten themselves involved with.

A headline from the Huffington Post sums up what happened next with admirable succinctness:

Men's Rights Concert In Toronto Cancelled Upon Discovery It Was A Men's Rights Concert

The exodus from E-Day kicked off after a post appeared on the lefty Canadian news site Rabble.ca pointing out what CAFE was really about. Musicians and sponsors quickly distanced themselves from the event, and CAFE lost its venue as well.

CAFE’s response to all this? A press release stating:

CAFE received overwhelming support from musicians, sponsors and the general public for Equality Day. After several months of productive collaboration, the original venue Artscape Gibralter-Point cancelled the use of their location after receiving a small number of misinformed complaints.

That’s a rather … odd way to describe what happened. According to a good number of those who had originally signed on for the concert, it was CAFE that was actively spreading misinformation about their own event and hiding its Men’s Rights agenda.

The musical group Giraffe posted a statement on Facebook saying:

We feel that we were not fully informed about what it was that is being supported here, and also that calling it a festival that celebrates “equality” as opposed to “men’s equality” was intentionally misleading to us in it’s effort to entice us to play this show.

Hogtown Brewers, one of the sponsors, offered a similar explanation for why they pulled out. “We’re kinda surprised that an event that built itself on being for equality turned out to be anything but that,” the president of the company told the The Star. “The minute that it came to our attention that it wasn’t a concert in line with our values, we moved to remove our support. We regret any involvement.”

Meanwhile, a spokeswoman for Artscape, the venue that was to have originally held the event, told The Globe and Mail that

[t]he premise of the event as it was given to us was a fair and equitable event that was family-friendly and a lovely music festival. It has since turned political and we anticipated that there could be health and safety concerns as well.

Perhaps the most amazing revelation: Jagermeister, which had been listed as a sponsor on CAFE’s publicity materials, said it had never agreed to be part of the event in the first place:

CAFE’s creative, er, spinning continued in an interview the group’s outreach director Denise Fong gave to NowToronto. I’m not even going to summarize this one. Go read it.

A scaled down E-Day celebration of sorts did go ahead last weekend. It consisted of some CAFE volunteers standing on a corner handing out pamphlets and talking to passersby about their support of “boys, men and families.” (That’s a strangely limited notion of equality, huh?)

In their press release last week, CAFE announced that

Equality Day musical activities will be postponed to next Sunday, June 8. Details to be announced.

So far no details have been announced. But, hey, they’ve still got a couple of days to go.

On a totally unrelated note, I will be holding “E-Kwalitee Day” in my apartment sometime this afternoon. I am proud to announce that I have managed to book some outstanding musical acts for this extravaganza. They don’t know it yet, but I have written their names down in my appointment book.

Here’s the headliner:

I support kittens, cats and families. Ask me why!

 

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Marie
Marie
6 years ago

@cassandra

Again, Marie, I really don’t think you’re quite grasping how social dynamics work here.

ok, how amen’t I grasping how social dynamics work here? Because just saying I don’t grasp them is uh kind of weird, and uh, thanks? gah.

I can’t even articulate shit right now.

fromafar2013
6 years ago

I think I’ve got it. I think.

When examining preferences, I don’t think it’s good to make people feel like they have to change those preferences. I think it’s about changing WHY you have those preferences.

Example:

If I, as a lesbian, say “I don’t like men and therefore trans women because they’re actually men in disguise.” That’s transmisogynistic. Trans women are not men. Period.

If I, as a lesbian, say “I only like fem cis women. Cause that’s what I like.” Not transmisogynistic.

Difference.

Same preference, different reasons.

enhancedvibes
enhancedvibes
6 years ago
Reply to  cassandrakitty

@cassandrakitty

I am not too familiar with this topic to be honest, where it seems there is a group of trans folk who think cis peoples should be doing this type of examination of their preferences. The way I look at it is, we are not born knowing what we like, and sorry to inject this here but this is something MRAs strongly believe – that we are born knowing what (features, characteristics etc) we are attracted to — this is something learned. So in the context of re-examining one’s preferences, I think what is important there is being able to recognize why we have those preferences, whether they change upon introspection or not. And sorry to go back to this example, but it’s at the crux of a lot of MRAtalk, a lot of men, in general not just MRAs, really believe the features they are attracted to aren’t learned. The underlying premise of all MRA thought is that the things society most dislikes about men and women’s behaviors is innate, when we know this is not true. Anyway, thems my thoughts.

enhancedvibes
enhancedvibes
6 years ago

Damn, ninja’d by fromafar2013!

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

@ katz

I’m starting to have a feeling that this topic might turn into Exodus 2. I’m certainly not going to stick around if “sure, it’s OK to tell women that they need to examine their lack of interest in having sex with people who they don’t want to have sex with” is the eventual consensus.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
6 years ago

Ok, I REALLY do not want to jump into this one, because I have NEVER seen this conversation lead to anything besides anger, but on thing that hasn’t been mentioned — TERFs will, or at least the Bug will, go after lesbians who have/are dating trans women claiming they can’t be lesbians because lesbians don’t have sex with the peen.

Which is obviously bullshit, you can be a lesbian and have trans women partners, you don’t have to or anything, but if you do, you don’t have to go turn in your lesbian card.

That’s the sort of assumption that Ally’s arguing against — that being a lesbian requires you never have sexytimes with someone with a penis, even if it’s attached to a trans woman — you’re bi or something if you do, so turn in your lesbian card. (This would likely be less of a headache if biphobia wasn’t a thing, and it wasn’t “turn in your lesbian card and get the hell away from me”. But that’s a conversation for another day)

hellkell
hellkell
6 years ago

Katz:

So at the risk of being “the person who brings that up,” there was a discussion of the race thing during the Great Manboobz Exodus that boiled down to “if you aren’t attracted to people of all races, you’re a racist.” I don’t know whether that’s coming to mind for Cassandra or anyone else, but there is a little latent bad blood on the topic.

It has crossed my mind, and yeah, I’m questioning my commitment to Sparkle Motion.

Ally S
6 years ago

Here’s a summary of my views here as they relate to this topic:

1) No one is obligated to have sex with anyone for any reason whatsoever.

2) Sometimes people’s sexual preferences are rooted in oppressive attitudes.

That is literally all I’m arguing. Asking someone to reexamine their preferences in order to pressure them into sexual relationships they don’t want to be in is an abusive strategy and I completely oppose it. I have been pressured into sex before by straight men, so I have experienced a similar social dynamic. It’s not okay and it’s not what I’m advocating at all. How many times do I have to state this?

Fade
6 years ago

cassandrakitty

And about Fade’s question about whether or not people are thinking about genitals when they’re talking to people they’re attracted to…um, yes? I mean, maybe I’m odd or something, but if I’m considering going to bed with someone then yes, I’m probably going to be thinking about what I’d like to be doing with their genitalia if they also would like me to do those things.

fair enough. i never had sex so maybe i’m missing something

Marie
Marie
6 years ago

@fromafar

I agree with most of what you say, about how it’s better to just look at why you have them instead of trying to change them (preferences) but for this:

If I, as a lesbian, say “I don’t like men and therefore trans women because they’re actually men in disguise.” That’s transmisogynistic. Trans women are not men. Period.

If I, as a lesbian, say “I only like fem cis women. Cause that’s what I like.” Not transmisogynistic.

I stil think the second one is a little off. Obviously not as bad as the first one, but I think turning it to ‘cuase that’s what I like’ doesn’t make it much better. Because it is possibe to be a ’cause that’s just what I like’ but in the current society it’s nearly impossible to actually say whether it is a ‘just what you like’ or because of how trans women are portrayed/stereotyped.

@enhancedvibes

I think what is important there is being able to recognize why we have those preferences, whether they change upon introspection or not

^ditto.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

And now I feel like we should put an age warning on this thread, if we’re going to get into this amount of detail.

Marie
Marie
6 years ago

@ally

1) No one is obligated to have sex with anyone for any reason whatsoever.

2) Sometimes people’s sexual preferences are rooted in oppressive attitudes.

^QFT.

And I really don’t see why pointing out peoples sexual preferences can be rooted in opppressive attitudes is causing such a big deal :/

Gen
Gen
6 years ago

Wow, this is hard.

I completely get why people felt that there was a coercive element in what Ally said – it struck me like that as first. There really is an implied “or you’re a bigot” to “examine your position”, which I think is maybe part of where the problem lie.

That being said, I don’t think that is the dynamic we see in place in this specific discussion. I don’t think it’s transmisogynistic for a lesbian who doesn’t like peens to prefer not to have sex with someone whose genitals include a peen – regardless of whether that person is trans or cis and, not to speak for Ally (please stop me if I’m getting this wrong) but I don’t think that’s what Ally is referring to here.

If someone has previously in their lives realized that what they find sexually exciting is genital A but sexually offputting is genital B, that’s one thing. But when the extent of the thought is “I like “real” women” or “I like “real” men”, that might be something that could be explored further.

Also, and I’m asking this because I genuinely don’t know, is this something that would generally come up early in a relationship-to-be?

Gen
Gen
6 years ago

And now I feel like we should put an age warning on this thread, if we’re going to get into this amount of detail.

LOL, you have no idea how much TMI I took out of my post for just that reason XD

fromafar2013
6 years ago

That’s the sort of assumption that Ally’s arguing against — that being a lesbian requires you never have sexytimes with someone with a penis, even if it’s attached to a trans woman — you’re bi or something if you do, so turn in your lesbian card. (This would likely be less of a headache if biphobia wasn’t a thing, and it wasn’t “turn in your lesbian card and get the hell away from me”. But that’s a conversation for another day)

I think this is why I’m kinda invested in this a little too much for my own good. I had a huge crush on a classmate in college, and asked her out, but when she found out that I’m bi (and one of my past girlfriends was a trans woman) she freaked out on me. Refused to talk to me. Like I was trying to trick her into something. I couldn’t place why at the time, but I’m beginning to think it has something to do with what you posted above. Maybe she was a TERF?

I just realized (well, not just, but I have been bringing it up a lot) I’ve been rejected a lot because I’m bi. -_-;

But like you said, that’s another conversation.

@ Marie

Yeah, I get what you’re saying. I think my goal was just to show that you can have preferences without throwing entire groups of people directly under the bus in the process.

Marie
Marie
6 years ago

@fromafar

Fair enough.

katz
6 years ago

I’m starting to have a feeling that this topic might turn into Exodus 2. I’m certainly not going to stick around if “sure, it’s OK to tell women that they need to examine their lack of interest in having sex with people who they don’t want to have sex with” is the eventual consensus.

Obviously you can do whatever, but I’d like to think that we’re all big kids here and can, at the worst, shelve this alongside the plural of octopus under “discussions that are just going to make everyone angry so seriously just don’t bring it up.”

weirwoodtreehugger
6 years ago

Ally,
For the record I never thought you were trying to say anyone should be coerced into sex. I think the point is we just have to be really careful when analyzing a person’s sexual preferences because it can get dangerously close to crossing the line into that.

Shadow
Shadow
6 years ago

@Marie

ok, how amen’t I grasping how social dynamics work here? Because just saying I don’t grasp them is uh kind of weird, and uh, thanks? gah.

And I really don’t see why pointing out peoples sexual preferences can be rooted in opppressive attitudes is causing such a big deal

It’s not pointing out that a preference can be problematic that there’s a push back against. It’s that there needs to be a logic behind pointing it out and, as far as I can see, there hasn’t been a good argument for why it’s oppressive or trans-misogynistic.

I have no interest in having sex with someone who has a penis. I don’t care if that penis is attached to a cis man or a trans woman. This is not equivalent to saying I’m not interested in having sex with trans women, this is me saying that I’m only interested in having sex with women with a vagina, cis or trans.

As far as social dynamics go, especially in a progressive space, people’s goal is to eradicate bigotry and oppressive practices, both within themselves and in society. If you tell me that not wanting to have sex with trans women with penises is transmisogynistic then basically what is being said is that I must either change my preferences, or I will continue to oppress trans women. This is why there is an element of coercion there, especially in a space like this.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

@ katz

I really hope that you’re not implying that finding the potentially coercive elements in the whole “examine!” thing horrifying is a childish response. I’d hope that part of all being big kids on a feminist site would be acknowledging the fact that women as a group have very good reasons to respond negatively to anything that smells like possible sexual coercion.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
6 years ago

Yeah, I’m with Katz, I’d much rather this go on the shelf of “things that just make everyone angry” than have another exodus.

Fromafar — idk about TERF, but I’d imagine the underlying attitude is the same — “real” lesbians have no sexual contact with the peen, no matter how many lovers removed it is or whether it was attached to a woman.

Damn, this whole mess must really leave intersex people in a lurch huh?

Cats have the right idea — you give me pets, I like that, and this spot is comfy, so I’ll curl up with you until I change my mind. I may have a cat next to me.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

@ Shadow

Thank you. You phrased that much more neatly than I did.

Ally S
6 years ago

I have no interest in having sex with someone who has a penis. I don’t care if that penis is attached to a cis man or a trans woman. This is not equivalent to saying I’m not interested in having sex with trans women, this is me saying that I’m only interested in having sex with women with a vagina, cis or trans.

And I’m not saying that people like you are transmisogynistic. I never meant that, even though earlier I was articulating my views poorly.

fromafar2013
6 years ago

@ Shadow

I have no interest in having sex with someone who has a penis. I don’t care if that penis is attached to a cis man or a trans woman. This is not equivalent to saying I’m not interested in having sex with trans women, this is me saying that I’m only interested in having sex with women with a vagina, cis or trans.

This is NOT transmisogynistic. This is like a better and more well thought out example 2 from my post above. 🙂

katz
6 years ago

I really hope that you’re not implying that finding the potentially coercive elements in the whole “examine!” thing horrifying is a childish response. I’d hope that part of all being big kids on a feminist site would be acknowledging the fact that women as a group have very good reasons to respond negatively to anything that smells like possible sexual coercion.

Sorry, I totally realized after I said it that was a really bad way to say that. I didn’t mean that what people are doing here is childish at all (and FWIW I’m with you on this one; I think we should leave people’s pantsfeelings alone); I just meant that when people left in a huff, that was very childish, and I know that all the people around right now are generally reasonable folks and I hope we can find a space between “everyone is angry at everyone else” and “half the people leave and never come back.”

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

I’ve encountered the whole “nope, not dating you because you’re bi, which means you’ll cheat on me/leave me for a man/insert assumption here” thing too, when I was younger. And yeah, it isn’t a whole lot of fun, and it is based on negative stereotypes, but it would never occur to me to tell someone reacting that way to reexamine their refusal to date people who’re bi because a. they have a right to decide who they want to date, even if it sucks for me, and b. why would I want to date someone who doesn’t really want to date me? I don’t WANT to be involved with someone who has to be strong-armed into it, whether that’s via social coercion or personal guilt-tripping or whatever. It would be nice if society as a whole would drop the idea that bisexual people are evil untrustworthy homewreckers, but on a personal are-we-going-to-date-right-now level? Nope, not OK for me to ask them to change their mind.

Ally S
6 years ago

Here’s a summary of my views here as they relate to this topic:

1) No one is obligated to have sex with anyone for any reason whatsoever.

2) Sometimes people’s sexual preferences are rooted in oppressive attitudes.

Now, do I need to put flashing LEDs around this post in order for people to drop all of their fucking straw arguments? Maybe some loud music, too?

Shadow
Shadow
6 years ago

@Ally

Yep, totally get that now.

hellkell
hellkell
6 years ago

If it’s racist to prefer to have sex with white women, it’s also transmisogyistic to prefer to have sex with cis women just because of genitals.

This was just poorly articulated, then?

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

@ katz

Yeah, I was hoping we were just getting crossed wires there, sorry if I sounded touchy. The whole “your preferences are inconveniencing me/other people, and isn’t women’s sexuality meant to be fluid?” thing is one of those subjects where I’m not prepared to compromise at all, but I’d really rather not see Exodus 2 – The Grudge happen either.

Ally S
6 years ago

Yes, hellkell, I shouldn’t have phrased it that way, and I apologize for it.

I’ve encountered the whole “nope, not dating you because you’re bi, which means you’ll cheat on me/leave me for a man/insert assumption here” thing too, when I was younger. And yeah, it isn’t a whole lot of fun, and it is based on negative stereotypes, but it would never occur to me to tell someone reacting that way to reexamine their refusal to date people who’re bi because a. they have a right to decide who they want to date, even if it sucks for me, and b. why would I want to date someone who doesn’t really want to date me? I don’t WANT to be involved with someone who has to be strong-armed into it, whether that’s via social coercion or personal guilt-tripping or whatever. It would be nice if society as a whole would drop the idea that bisexual people are evil untrustworthy homewreckers, but on a personal are-we-going-to-date-right-now level? Nope, not OK for me to ask them to change their mind.

And I agree completely with you on this. Can you please stop misrepresenting my views? I already admitted that I phrased my points poorly, I apologized, and I attempted to clarify my views.

I really don’t want to have this argument, especially not with folks like you, for whom I have a lot of respect.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
6 years ago

*drapes solar powered LEDs over the thread* there, those should stay lit awhile.

Cassandra — I think you and Ally are talking past each other, based on your last comment. Nobody, at least no one here, wants to strong arm lesbians into dating trans women, because yep, who’d want to be with someone guilt tripped into being with them? That’d suck all around. But as you said about biphobia, it would be nice if society as a whole would take a look at these stereotypes and slowly back away from them.

Who you love/sex up is still going to be who you love/sex up, but less “oh, you’re X, GTFO” would be great, regardless what X is.

katz
6 years ago

Cassandra, you didn’t sound touchy at all, I was just communicating REALLY badly.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
6 years ago

My last sentence needs a clause added about the GTFO being based on social stereotypes and GTFO of that sort of relationship, not that bedroom. Getting dumped sucks, but better to just go if it can’t be worked out (I hope you all know what I mean here, worked out like…”we don’t eat out enough” “well that’s an easy fix”, not deal breakers)

fromafar2013
6 years ago

I’m starting to get the sense, after going back and rereading the thread a little, that we all basically agree, especially on the big points.

@ cassandrakitty

It would be nice if society as a whole would drop the idea that bisexual people are evil untrustworthy homewreckers, but on a personal are-we-going-to-date-right-now level? Nope, not OK for me to ask them to change their mind.

Agreed. I honestly think people auto rejecting me like that is a blessing in disguise. I probably wouldn’t want to date them anyway! But yes, never even occurred to me to try to guilt anyone into dating me, that’s abuser stuff.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

Which would be fine if we could remove the “btw you’re probably a (insert reference to specific form of bigotry here) if you don’t want to date people who’re X” part. Ally wasn’t the only one who was making comments that were leaning pretty heavily in that direction. I’m glad that she at least is now expressing a much more reasonable position, but I’m still side-eyeing a few other people.

(And just plain confused about the idea that people shouldn’t care about genitals in general. If someone is pan then sure, I guess maybe that’s how it works? But most people aren’t, hence my confusion. And even more confused by the idea that preferring to fuck people with genital configuration A rather than B means that you basically see that person as a giant walking vulva/penis and are reducing them to their genitals.)

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

@ fromafar

Yeah, I always told people that I was bi right upfront for precisely that reason. If they were going to not be OK with that I figured I’d rather know early on, before I got emotionally invested in the relationship. It was also a good way to weed out people on the other end of the spectrum who just love the idea of dating a bisexual woman, in a fetishy sort of way. I’d imagine that trans people probably want to do that kind of weeding out of people who see them as fetish objects too.

Ally S
6 years ago

I’m glad you understand my position now, cassandrakitty.

@everyone

I’m really sorry for starting this mess. If I didn’t do such a shitty job of explaining my views, none of this would have happened. I’m sorry. I may have to spend some time away from this place.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

@ Ally

The position that you summarized above is fine with me, btw.

weirwoodtreehugger
6 years ago

I blame Ruby for making inflammatory comments in the first place. Us fighting might have even been her goal.

Marie
Marie
6 years ago

@ally

It’s not your fault.

Viscaria
Viscaria
6 years ago

Is there value to examining our preferences, not to determine whether they are “right” or “wrong,” but just to question some of the attitudes behind them? If I wasn’t interested in men of Chinese descent, for example, I think it would be worthwhile for me to ask myself if it is because I feel that they are not properly “manly” like White men. If I look honestly at myself and find the answer is yes, that doesn’t mean I have to go and find some willing Chinese-Canadian guy to have sex with in order to make up for it, because choosing not to have sex with people is not oppressive. However it would be good for me to have identified this racist attitude in myself, because it has implications beyond just who I have sex with. If I am ever in a position to be hiring and promoting others, it would be oppressive for me to hire a white man over an asian man because I felt white men embody concepts associated with masculinity and success, like assertiveness and leadership ability; and that Asian men do not have these qualities and are therefore unable to do well.

Similarly, if I were to find myself unattracted to the idea of trans women with penises, I hope I would ask myself whether it is because I felt trans women were not really women unless/until they undergo bottom surgery. If that was true, it would affect whether or not I allowed these women into women-only spaces. It would affect whether I understood the transmisogyny they face as misogyny, something that I specifically oppose as a feminist.

I dunno.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
6 years ago

No, don’t go! Don’t let the TERF (apologist) and the resulting mess send you away. Much as this discussion turned into a disaster, it started because we had a TERF drop by, and fuck that, we’re better than letting one of them scare people off.

Cassandra — “if you, personally, don’t like X, then you’re Y” = bad bad beans! yeah (thank you Doctor for that line!). “If you, all of society, don’t like X, maybe we need to have a talk about Y”? Idk. It would be nice if trying to discuss this particular form of it could go the same way as discussing biphobia, or why PoC in ads tend to have stereotypically white features. The question certainly needs to be about social trends, not individual people’s love lives.

fromafar2013
6 years ago

@ Ally

For what it’s worth, I don’t think you really did anything wrong. We know you aren’t a troll. I kinda assumed what you meant based on past experience, and the fact that the ‘cis is a slur’ troll was being an ass, but its good to have clarification in case someone not familiar with this blog stumbles in here.

I think it was interesting to have a conversation about this sort of thing in a space with people capable of nuance and discussion without shouting over each other. I think I actually learned some things and feel better about my ability to express my feelings about this topic.

So, thanks? But I understand if you need a break. :/

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
6 years ago

What WWTH said!

Dvärghundspossen
6 years ago

That was nicely put, Viscaria. I think what you’re saying is what makes sense about “examining one’s preferences”.

fromafar2013
6 years ago

Clarification, Ally, I understood what you meant in the first place because you had expressed your opinion correctly in another place, and I assumed the same to be true here, even if poorly worded initially here.

Guh. I need to go nuke my coffee.

Dvärghundspossen
6 years ago

And I second all the “please stay, Ally”-comments.

fromafar2013
6 years ago

@ Viscaria

Yes! Seconding Dvärghundspossen.

Ally S
6 years ago

I don’t know. This whole argument really hit home for me, being a trans lesbian who has had to deal with cis lesbian TERFs. I understand that there isn’t really a disagreement among us anymore and I’m not holding a grudge or anything like that, but these arguments have been very hurtful for me. My leave may be temporary or permanent. And please understand that this is no one’s fault but my own. I got so fucking carried away in responding to RubyX3 that I ended up saying some unacceptable things on accident. I shouldn’t be careless like that, especially since I know many people here are rape survivors and me stepping on them is unacceptable, even if it is unintentional on my part.

I’m not sure if I’ll leave yet, but it sure is tempting.