Oh, Reddit! Need another reminder that on Reddit, whiny lady-hating man-babies can be found outside the Men’s Rights and Red Pill subreddits? Take a look at this lovely comment from occasional Red Pill commenter purple4th in Change My Views, which (the last I checked) had garnered nearly 150 net upvotes from the crowd there. Here’s the money quote:
[S]ocietal laws are so filled with misandry that in 99% of societal contexts such as going to office, going to the supermarket, going to the movies, etc;, it is men who have to be continually afraid of women.
That’s right, fellas. Women who worry about men harming them are all a bunch of big sillies. It’s MEN who should be worried Oh, sure those gals may look innocent, but don’t let your guard down for a minute lest one of them misander you with a false accusation of being too much of a dude! con
Purple4th continues:
As my investment banks’ Sexual Harassment presentation says, “It is harassment if she says so”. Period.
Really? I decided to look online to see if I could find any Sexual Harassment literature making that argument. A search for “It is harassment if she says so” in quotes returns only one hit on Google: Purple4th’s comment on Reddit.
In fact, the legal standard for sexual harassment — in the US at least — is not “whatever the hell a random woman wants to call harassment.” It’s whether or not a “reasonable person” would see the behavior as harassment.
But that’s how it works in the real world. MRAs and the MRA-adjacent don’t live in the real world.
—
Thanks, AMRthroaway on Reddit for pointing me to this lovely quote.
Angrymouse: Welcome, and glad you got out of that situation–good on you for making your way free.
Tinyorc: Blech. And the reactions of the dudes you told this too is one of the better examples of privilege that I’ve come across. “No, I don’t understand why someone a foot shorter and a hundred pounds lighter might be worried about starting a confrontation where there’s no allies around.”
I’m almost 5’10,” and I won’t confront men who are following me or harassing me. It’s not even about size, but the fact that they’ve already proven themselves not to have the ordinary social boundaries. But I get the same question a lot. Why did you “let” him do that?
Lavande,
The day you do and things get hairy, those same people will say, “What were you thinking?!?!” as if it was your fault.
Do what feels right to you and know that it was never you who had the power to “let” him do anything. His actions are his alone. No matter what, it will never be the “correct” thing for some people because blaming you for his actions is A) standard sexism and B) makes them feel safer and more self righteous.
Uhh… most of reddit doesn’t think like that at all… Believe it or not, reddit is actually millions of people, not one single entity. It’s like saying “tumblr users agree: all men are rapists” in regards to the more extreme end of the feminist spectrum on tumblr. It’s obvious that most tumblr users don’t think that right? I guess since one dude said something stupid and a few people agreed with him (150 upvotes is barely anything by the way) then that means that MILLIONS of people (including women) believe it! Makes total sense!
@fromafar:
That story reminds me of my standard response to unwanted touching in public places, especially on public transit, or in a theatre, at the gym,. or anywhere there are lots of people crowded together. I just shriek out “This guy’s touching my ass! Stop touching my ass!” in my loudest stage voice. EVERY head turns to the ass-grabbing jerk, with looks that could kill. Usually the entitled asshead does his best to leave as quickly as possible, but on a bus or streetcar that’s between stops, watching everyone else glare daggers at the creep until the next stop can be seriously gratifying. I figure that I have nothing to be embarrassed about here – he’s the one who should be ashamed as all hell. This seems to be the general public’s reaction as well. And the reaction of the creeps who get called on their creeping. 🙂
Tinyorc, WWTH – that’s awful! There is never an end to the weird new ways creeps will attempt to approach women they don’t know, or just get off on our presence without our consent. Gross!
Creep-shaming! Misandry!
/s
I’m sorry you had to experience shit like that. 🙁 I have also had some very scary and creepy stuff happen to me dozens of times.
Lavande: I’m sorry this is happening to you, but be of good chair bc hey! You’re not alone.
These people aren’t just on Reddit.
In the past few months, every single article or website, I’ve visited, that mentions any women’s issue has been inundated with the same antagonism and deliberate obtuseness . These a**holes are out in full force all over Teh Internets ,especially in the wake of the Elliott Rodger Shootings and #Yesallwomen events. They’ve even been on that particular feed proving the women’s point.
It’s galling because after a while There are almost no safe places where women, or any other marginalized group, can discuss issues of any importance to them or even just have a grownup conversation without one of these creatures waiting to chime in some gas lighting, or mansplaing or even the old toughen up speech. There are a handful of men who do speak out but the deliberate obtuseness is as thick as molasses.
These people aren’t there to discuss or argue or even just troll. They are there specifically to derail and prevent grownup discussion of any issue that pertains to anyone except themselves, ( basically a massive, collective “Waaahhh! You’re not paying attention to me”whine, ) and they are sometimes very successfull. The entire convo gets hijacked into definitions of words or arguing the reality of a singular event of importance to the derailer.
The whole thing is just very disheartening until I remember that I know plenty of men in my personal life who get it. They aren’t online but they are around and they are watching and listening to all of it. This thing these a**hats are trying to do is only going to backfire on them. They’re only going to help accomplish the goals of feminism in their zeal to stop it.
RE: Cliff Pervocracy
my point is just that wow, sexual harassment cases are not at all the “accusing is easy and you get to ask for anything you want when you accuse a guy” thing MRAs would like to think they are.
Someone fetch me my fainting couch!
RE: AngryMouse
Anyway, he legit did not understand that this was sexual harassment.
I’m not surprised. Realizing it was sexual harassment might entail realizing he’s a sexual harrasser, and that’s a bad thing! He doesn’t want to be a bad thing! Better to just bury his head in the sand and pretend it’s all eeeeevil women’s fault.
RE: David
The 2 movements are surprisingly distinct.
I realize you do mocking, but I wouldn’t mind seeing a post where you describe and compare and contrast the two movements! I’d find it really interesting.
RE: fromafar2013
Great monster voice! I love the smell of schadenfreude in the morning. Considering the issues I’ve been having with Creepy Tim, I very well might let Gigi sort him out in a similar manner.
I think “do something so weird that your victim doesn’t know wtf” is a bona fide harassment strategy. Like, if a guy grabs your crotch or chest, that’s… not an easy situation in any way, but it’s at least recognizable as a scene from the No Zone lecture.
If he burps on you or licks you, your brain just goes into “what is even HAPPENING” mode. Like, you have to spend time figuring out if this is a weird joke or something before you can even start figuring out how to respond. And it’s harder to get people to believe the story or to understand that this was clearly intended as harassment.
LBT: I suspect that one of the big lines of distinction is that at least some of the father’s rights guys are making legit arguments against legitimate grievances; those men are often approachable, as their position (that divorced men can do, on average, as good a job as their ex-wives at being the primary care-giver) is something that most feminists would actually agree with.
Of course, that’s not true of the whole FRM. There’s an attorney in the Chicago area (Jeffery Leving, IIRC) who has advertised for years on his record at working for fathers in divorce cases. That’s all well and good; people are people, and some people get really shitty in divorce, and then the kids suffer and it’s best to have decent advocates on all sides to make sure things are processed fairly.
But about 6 months ago or so, he ran a second series of ads talking about how devastating it was for a father to have a child suffer a medical malpractice issue at birth, and how he’d help dads whose kids had been harmed. And it was still all about Daddy, even though this is the sort of situation that affects both parents equally. Apparently, if you’re a single mom whose kid gets injured by the hospital at birth, he doesn’t want to know about it, because only kids with dads count. Seriously, WTF?
My way of handling things like that in the past was to be loud or confront. You should do whatever is comfortable for you to do but my big fear when I did this was the exact opposite. I thought if I didn’t nip it in the bud, in exceptionally loud and clear terms,right then and there, that the person would take it as permission to escalate
. My thinking was that they’ve already stepped over one of the boundaries of good behavior and they damn well know it. If I don’t do or say anything they’ll step over another. I’m not advocating this for everyone, just how I felt at the time I did it. As I’ve grown older and drive more, this doesn’t happen anymore. I think I’ve aged out of the generalized harassment most women get. I mostly am ignored now. I still get mansplaining and more subtle stuff but street harassment no longer happens.
I’d also like to point out the intersectionality of it. When you guys are getting treated this way, what race is the perpetrator? I’m genuinely interested in the answer. I know Black men do this as I experienced street harassment when I was younger but I have never encountered any of the stuff that I’ve heard White women talk about. (I had this idea that Black men know damn well they better not touch a sistah without her permission or they won’t ever get that hand back. Also, a lot of Black men absolutely will not do this if you are a sistah over a certain age. Then it’s all yes ma’am, and please or completely ignoring. ) I KNOW Black men get up to stuff and have issues with black women but maybe they’re doing different stuff or they are just more sly about it and I’m not seeing it? Do black men act like this to White women when Black women aren’t around? Do you notice a difference at all? What about Asian men or Latinos?
Also want to point out I’m speaking strictly about street harassment. I’ve never been harassed by White men on the street. Not ever. I only ever got harassed by men of my own race and I wonder how often racial lines get crossed when this behavior happens.
RE: Cliff
If he burps on you or licks you, your brain just goes into “what is even HAPPENING” mode.
Yes, exactly, and in some ways, that’s TERRIFYING because you don’t know an appropriate response! (That’s why the woman using her monster voice linked earlier is also so effective; her groper didn’t know how to deal with being roared at by Satan.)
I honestly feel like the “What? WHAT?” thing is something other people try to use on purpose. See: hubby marching at a Pride Parade where they let some God Hates Fags people in and defended the decision. His ‘What? WHAT?’ reaction lasted for HOURS before he could decide whether to be upset or not, just because it was so BIZARRE.
RE: lkeke35
When you guys are getting treated this way, what race is the perpetrator?
I get less street harassment and more rapey Nice Guy behavior, but I have overwhelmingly been targeted by straight white geeky men. My creeper here is black, but he is the first, and frankly, I HIGHLY doubt he’s targeting me out of any racial reasons — he’s also my first deaf creeper. It’s ALWAYS been straight white geeky dudes with me.
Interestingly, I have been approached on the street by a couple black guys. Not many, and the thing is, with the exception of Creepy Tim up there, they were always POLITE. Even the dude who used “gym-buddies” as an excuse was polite; he just called me incessantly. All of the others were actually pleasant. They weren’t harassing me; I mean, I was totally uninterested in them, but I didn’t feel the urge to run like hell. They were WAY easier to disengage from, and way less frightening.
I don’t think this is coincidental. The body I’m in, before all the modding got done, was basically the stereotypical nerdboy wet dream. We looked (and due to the multi, in part behaved) like a Manic Pixie Dream Girl, with enormous tits, blond hair, and geeky T-shirts, and they saw us as their just dues for being an “oppressed” nerd in high school. We were their “reward.” So it was a very, VERY specific type of creeping we got, in a very specific role, and they wanted US in a very specific role as well, the hot chick who’s a total freak in bed but will also play Super Smash with them and totally understand their broody nerdboy pain.
Ikele: It was one of a trio of black men who tried to lift my kilt. I’m white.
Hm… I do think it would be interesting, in a ‘look at the grotesquerie’ way, to do a study on street-harassment that looked at comparative racial identities–that is, do cat-callers target all women equally, do they target their own race more often, or do they generally opt for harassing WoCs on the grounds that they’re more vulnerable? (I honestly wouldn’t be surprised by any of the equally awful options there, by the way.)
In school, almost exclusively white boys, with one standard fare bully exception, and more than enough white girls to make up a cheerleading team (convenient, since many of them did). Since I got out in the real world and what my biological gender is wasn’t such a glaring fact? Only time I’ve had a non-white person who may’ve identified as a woman say anything to me, ze was complimenting the mixing of masculine and feminine fashion in my heeled wingtip shoes, best compliment ever. Some stares from white women, but nothing compared to the “I’m in a car, let me honk at you from behind” guys. Probably white based on the neighborhoods in question. My two least favorite were both black men though, one thought it appropriate to strike up conversation at a bus stop (normal enough), ask for a hug and then cop a feel, the other appeared out of nowhere one night demanding money — definitely homeless and I don’t think he was mentally well. And I’m white btw.
My favorite people to randomly comment on my appearance? The elderly, they’re always so polite about it! The ones who comment and then demand I smile and such? White men, exclusively.
I’ve been harassed by white and black men way more than Latino or Asian men for some reason. I’d say it’s black men harassing me 2/3 of the time. I’m white.
I wonder if some of it has to do with body type. I have a voluptuous figure that is similar to Christina Hendricks. When I’ve been in the midst of disordered eating and gotten a little thinner the percentage of white men harassing me would rise. It’s not like out of men who are attracted to women, all white men prefer thin and all black men prefer curvy. However, it is true that white people are socialized to find thin beautiful more than black people are.
That’s all just my own experience though.
I have been annoyed on the street by Black, White, Hispanic, and Asian men. I happen to be white. Not every instance fits a pattern so I feel uncomfortable assigning behaviors to groups, especially when there are always confounding factors like age or socioeconomic status. But, here are my generalizations, for what they are worth. (Probably nothing.)
I have had a lot of black men who were utter strangers approach me with a compliment on my appearance and a request for a date or a phone number. I’m not open to meeting men that way, but the problem was that most of the men who have approached me in this manner have been highly offended or persistent when I declined. In some instances, the man blocked my path and kept insisting that I give him personal information. One man pulled over and got out of his car to approach me while I was walking alone, and he was very persistent. He insisted on taking my photograph and suggested I do some modeling for some dubious enterprise he had going on. Another followed me in his car for blocks, pulling over several times and trying to initiate conversation. Most of these guys were well-dressed and kind of verbally smooth. They would generally only use polite language toward me, though one called me a racist when I didn’t accept a date offer in the grocery store. Another guy kept following the grocery store after I said I wasn’t interested, but not in a sneaky way, rather in a dominant and persistent way. He kept asking. But, besides once being called a “racist” and another time a “bitch,” I’ve never had a black man direct language more vulgar than “sexy” at me. However, I have had black men behave in a way that was extremely dominant and aggressive. One man followed me into a subway station commenting on my legs and how my shorts made him feel. He backed me against a wall and told me how turned on he was. Another (very large) man grabbed me by the arm in the park because I walked past him without responding to his overture. I’ve also had black men walk past me on the street and utter single comments like “beautiful” or “sexy.” I consider this cat-calling even if it isn’t technically vulgar. I also consider the persistent guys to be harassers, despite the polite language, because they were using intimidation to get what they wanted.
White guys who are strangers approach me directly less often, unless they have been drinking or in a situation where they feel otherwise emboldened. I’ve had white guys grope me, but almost as if they were assuming I would be okay with it. I’ve had several white men follow me in a creepy way while I was shopping; apparently they thought it would be a good way to get my attention. I’ve also had older white men follow me, either to my car or around a store while shopping, but, in those instances, they didn’t mind being obvious about it and approaching me with a request for a date. Once when I was eighteen, a man in his fifties followed me around for 30 minutes in a bookstore asking me for my personal information and a date. I’ve had white men say very nasty sexual things to me, and I’ve had them simply walk up to me and say “I want to fuck you.” I’ve had a white guy pull down his pants in front of me.
Hispanic men who are strangers to me do not ask me for dates, but I have had them catcall me, stare at me, or follow me. Usually they are in groups when this behavior occurs. One man approached me and groped my leg, then hurried back over to his buddies.
I’ve been grabbed by one Asian man on the street, and groped by two others. I don’t recall being catcalled by an Asian man. I have had some approach me with a physical compliment or a request for a date, but only one was hugely persistent.
I’m not sure there is any data to draw from all this, but I have had black women tell me that black men catcall them in a more offensive way, using slurs or vulgarities, especially if spurned. Again, black men tend to use polite language with me, even after I turn them down, but the actions–blocking my way, following me, not taking no for an answer–are not polite.
I’m white, and have mixed with all sorts of males of various ethnic groups, ages, and socioeconomic statuses. Since puberty this has been primarily been in one country (NZ). I’ve been in mixed ethnicity relationships too. The only boundary-crossing crap, including street harrassment, I have experienced has been with white cis-guys, I am *much* more relaxed if I am in a group of Maori and/or Pasifika males, regardless of their ages. Cat calling, stalking me, calling me a lesbian for turning down offers to be my boyfriend, body shaming me for the same reason, to the point where I will cross the street or walk down the middle of the road at night to avoid being near white guys I don’t know. White gay men, on the other hand, I am extremely comfortable with.
Oh, okay, pecunium. That is pretty creepy.
Free age: I think that’s exactly what I was trying to say, in my roundabout fashion. I was wondering if all street harassers just pick any woman at random. If they’re equal opportunity sleazes or just prey on certain women? What is it that they are looking for as there is no doubt that one has to make a very deliberate choice to behave that way. It’s not an accident or Tourette’s.
Also I was wondering could it be geographical area? Do some public spaces by their layout for example encourage or discourage such behavior ? And what is it about bus stops that encourage it? If they were designed differently, would harassment decrease?
Just curious as to why in some instances and not in others.
Was he a Jimmy Hendrix impersonator named Cleo? Because that same thing happened to me. He followed me off the bus, which was unpleasant because my apartment at the time was less than a block way. He wanted me to do bikini modeling for his website and pay me in tickets for a hip hop show. To appease him and get the hell away from him I said I’d think about it and took his number. You know, one of those soft nos that Nice Guys like to whine about.
I think it’s because with public transit they have a captive audience. Even before you get aboard the bus or train you’re stuck because you have to stay and wait for the transit.
Buses and bus stops are definitely where the majority of harassment has taken place for me. Even more so than bars and clubs.
Most of the people who have harassed me are white guys, so I tend to be afraid of them more than anyone else. I feel much safer around men of color. I mean, I have run into some jerks who are men of color, but most of them are very nice to me.
And for the record, I’m half-Desi and half-white, and most people identify me as Desi right away.
What WWTH said, basically. Being stuck there encourages talking about the weather and such, and, in my case, “do you have a lighter?” or “can I bum a cigarette?” — both of those, and weather discussion, being perfectly normal (well, I assume, people freak me out if they persist — using my lighter is not an invitation to gripe about the weather, it’s Mew England, trust me, I know about the weather)
Plenty of it is simple small talk, e.g. “The [insert bus route here] come by yet?” But then you get the “you can deal with me, or miss your bus” assholes. Because they know those are your options. Design change to prevent it? Let me ponder if there was a pattern in socialization, in general, in Pittsburgh’s bus stop layouts — they have a few. More rain cover = less sardine conditions when it rains (which is often).
Pittsburgh’s worse than New England with the weather, accounting for that might help.