Is A Voice for Men using phony “death threats” allegedly directed at those planning to attend its upcoming “Men’s Issues” conference in Detroit, as well as upon employees and guests of the hotel where it’s scheduled to be held, as an excuse to smear feminists and raise a quick $25,000 in donations from readers and possibly even from a handful of gullible feminists?
As incredible as that sounds, that’s what some people I respect are saying. Despite AVFM’s history of lying about alleged feminist threats – you may recall John Hembling’s infamous confrontation with an imaginary mob of 20-30 feminists brandishing boxcutters – I’m not willing to go that far.
But there’s a lot about the story that makes no sense, and some big questions that need convincing answers.
1) The Doubletree Fort Shelby hotel has not confirmed that the letter Paul Elam posted on his site several days ago, and which he has now removed, actually came from them. The letter is, so far, the only evidence that there were any threats.
Hotel management needs to confirm whether or not they sent this letter to Elam.
2) Both the Detroit News and the Detroit Free Press spoke to Detroit Police spokesman Adam Madera, who told them that the police had not received any reports of death threats from the hotel. He told both papers that hotel staff had asked about hiring off-duty officers for security but hadn’t specified why.
Hotel management needs to confirm either that 1) they got death threats and didn’t report them or 2) that they got no such threats. They should also confirm whether their calls about off-duty police officers were related to the “Men’s Issues” conference.
There are a few other clues that support the “hoax” theory, though they’re far from definitive:
Several people who have allegedly contacted the hotel to ask about the threat say that the managers they spoke to knew nothing about the threats. Even if these reports are true, this may not be significant; managers may not have been told about threats related to a conference many weeks off.
The Detroit News also spoke to the owner of the hotel, and he said he was unaware of any threats. That may not be significant either; he may simply be out of the loop.
Essentially, we’re waiting for the Doubletree Fort Shelby management to answer these questions. If you look at the news coverage so far you’ll notice that the hotel staffers who can answer these questions don’t seem to be answering their phones or returning calls. I left a message for them today as well. No reply yet.
The other bits of evidence we’re waiting for? Well, the letter Elam claims he got from hotel management says that he and the other conference organizers need to send the hotel proof that they’ve hired the required number of Detroit police officers to handle security, as well as proof that they have also paid for at least $2 million in liability insurance. They have to have this done by the 6th.
In light of all the questions still swirling around, I think people are going to want to see this proof too.
It may be that the hotel comes forward and confirms that the letter was real, that the threats were real, and that indeed A Voice for Men does have to shell out $25,000 for extra security. It may even be the case that it was a feminist or a group of feminists making the threats. But we don’t know. And right now the people who do know are either not talking — or they have pretty much no credibility. Let’s hope the silence ends soon, because there’s no way the not-so-good folks at AVFM are suddenly going to turn credible overnight.
EDIT: I toned down some of the language, which I think was detracting from my main points, and added a new final paragraph.
EDIT 2: Removed some speculation. We’ll know some of the answers soon enough; no need to speculate.
UPDATE: DOUBLETREE STATEMENT
So I’ve heard back from Atiya Frederick, the PR Manager for Embassy Suites Hotels & DoubleTree, and she’s made clear that the hotel won’t be answering specific questions about any of this just yet. Here’s what she sent me.
At this time we are confining our comments on this matter to the below statement …
Hilton Worldwide strives to operate meeting places for people from all walks of life, regardless of beliefs, race, color, national origin, religion or sexual orientation. The views of our guests do not reflect the sentiment of Hilton Worldwide. As places of public accommodation, our hotels do not discriminate against any individual or group. Our goal is to provide quality accommodations and a pleasant environment for our guests, employees and members of our community . We would like to emphasize that we strive to be an inclusive company and regret if this policy has unintentionally offended any individual or organization.
This statement seems to be their standard response when they host a conference by a controversial group.
titianblue, those kitty memes are the best. I am laughing very loudly.
The kitties do not approve.
Anand: You are a simple shitstain if you think that Elam can do satire, and you think FeMRAs are intelligent.
Why do you keep coming back here? Do you do this offline too after people tell you to fuck off?
I’m willing to grant that FeMRAs can be intelligent. Even if they are that doesn’t mean they 1: can’t be wrong, 2: can’t be blinkered by one aspect of an idea to the rest of the problems with it.
So, if we assume they think men are oppressed, and they hold this as immutable article of faith, then they can be bloody brilliant, and still make asses of themselves.
It’s not as if brains = common sense. Critical thinking is a skill. It takes training, and feedback and practice. Absent those things, all the brilliance in the world isn’t going to make up for it. If one adds belief in a counterfactual then one will get all sorts of tortured attempts at making the lie appear true.
Now it happens I don’t have a whole lot of faith in the idea the FeMRAs mentioned are all that smart. It’s not the folly of their ideas (the most dangerous of which, to them, is, “they will like me, because I’m different”) it’s the quality of their reasoning and their use of rhetoric. JB’s recent, “I totally don’t know if she did it, but you need to tell her to confess, REALLY I HAVE NO EVIDENCE, so call her and tell her she’s in a lot of trouble if she doesn’t own up to it. I’m only doing it because I care” is a prime example of why I don’t credit her with being a top-notch thinker.
Careful about harping on that point, Anand. If you mention “pulling the fire alarm” a third time you’ll summon Big Red!
Oh, what I would give for recordings of these calls! I wonder how unhinged they sound trying to make this case to non-MRAs.
Anand: I have Big Red, Anita Sarkeesian is a liar, but FemRAs!, and “satire”. Wanna throw in a Zombie Solanas so I can have BINGO?
You’re assuming that they need extra security, and that the money can only be going toward that… and considering they’d already met their needed amount before you mentioned donating, seems like you wasted your money. Even if they’re completely on the level, unless they’re going to refund every penny that wasn’t needed, you donated to the website and the organisation, not to the security.
So, I probably have to hand in both my feminist and gamer cards, because I’ve never actually seen any of her videos or read much of what she’s written, but do you have any examples of how her theories have been debunked? People on all sides of every issue claim that their pet hates have been debunked, so, examples please?
Also, how does being wrong, assuming that her theories have actually been debunked, make her a liar? Or are the two statements independent of one another?
And, even assuming she is a liar, and that her theories have been shown false, how does that make her unworthy of financial support to defend her against harrassment? You’re willing to give money to other liars whose theories have been debunked so many times it’s ridiculous to even mention their names again (Elam, AVfM) so why not her?
For the record, despite having not heard her theories, I have noticed a great many sexist elements in many of the games that I’ve played, so if they’re debunked by the fact that there’s no sexism in games… well, the debunking is bunk.
I’m also not a woman, in case you think I’m just being over sensitive and don’t understand how games work.
Also quoting msmagazine for men’s rights is like quoting an uber Christian website to debunk evolution. Nice try.
Looks more like quoting an uber atheist website to debunk creationism to me… jus’ sayin’.
I doubt you’ve read or listened to anything they’ve said if you think they’re intelligent. I know very little about typhonblue, but Judgy Bitch has gone on record blaming children for their being victims of paedophilia… not sure I’d go so far as to call that a pro-paedophilia position, but it’s definitely not an intelligent one. Girl Writes What, on the other hand, has gone on the record saying that women shouldn’t vote and that domestic violence is a good thing. If I didn’t know better, I’d say she was just a glove puppet.
Besides, it’s entirely possible to be both intelligent and wrong. Under certain circumstances, reasonable, intelligent arguments can be made to justify siding with a movement that hates you – there’s a reason that the word “collaborator” has a definition, you know?
For a thing to be taken as satire, it needs to be distinguishable from your actual views. I would not write a satire about how women are people who deserve to be taken seriously as human beings based on their own thoughts and actions. I might write a satire about how women are a hive mind who all think and act the same way. I might even write a satire about how men should beat women. The thing you have to understand about this is that the point of satire is to express the opposite point. If you’re saying that “bash a violent bitch” is satire, then you’re basically saying that Elam is actually a feminist (and… he isn’t). Well, either that or you think he was satirising the idea that patriarchal attitudes exist, but that wouldn’t really be satire either – it would be a strawman. There really is no way to argue that it was satire without calling him dishonest or a deep-cover feminist, trying to discredit the MRM from the top.
Emilygoddess: Is Zombie Dworkin the free space?
Damn, blockquote monster was eaten by the typo monster:
should’ve been in a blockquote, like it is here, not in a “blockquotes.” *Hangs head in shame.*
Spending the weekend with future hubby, so I’m just stopping by because I noticed Anand the pooper brought up a pet peeve of mine; Anita Sarkeesian.
I’m just going to confirm that Anand is full of shit.
I have a bachelors degree in video game design. I’m a programmer for a living. I’ve been a guest lecturer at my alma mater and several other local universities in their game design theory classes. I have used Anita’s videos at a few of those classes, and they were not only well received but also generated some really useful dialogue about representation of minority groups in games and media in general. College professors agree with Anita. Almost all major game designers agree with Anita. Her videos are well done, well researched, and not controversial or confrontational. I have never, in all of my years in game design, met anyone actually involved in the industry who would actively dismiss her ideas. The problem with tropes, is that they are a default, pervasive, and need to be consciously challenged to change them. Very few game designers deny this, even the ones who have generally adhered to them.
tl;dr Anand is full of shit, still.
And I’m off to enjoy the Arts Festival. 🙂
Fromafar2013, She has definitely lied a lot in her videos. She introduced herself as a childhood gamer whereas in a leaked viral video she says that she hated violent games and never liked shooting games. First red flag.
I admit you are in a better position to talk about gaming than me (assuming you’re really what you say you are) but you have to admit that she has used selective nitpicking to prove her point. I can pick out more than a handful of femal protagonists in gaming
@ Anand
I’ve never played COD either. Should I turn in my degree, quit my job, and stop working on my game because I haven’t played a game that people like you use to narrowly define what a video game is or who is a video game player?
Not all games are violent and not all games are FPS. She could have played nothing but Tetris and Mario in her childhood and that would make her a childhood gamer, you ignorant little shit.
And the criticism is of tropes, not that there aren’t any women characters, but that the ways they are represented are formulaic and problematic. Have you even watched her videos or are you just repeating what your echo chamber of dude bro gamers tells you to say?
Fromafar2013, She has definitely lied a lot in her videos. She introduced herself as a childhood gamer whereas in a leaked viral video she says that she hated violent games and never liked shooting games. First red flag.
I admit you are in a better position to talk about gaming than me (assuming you’re really what you say you are) but you have to admit that she has used selective nitpicking to prove her point. I can pick out more than a handful of female protagonists in gaming that i adored and respected and so have my friends. She bases her point on mario, a game made decades ago… Really!!? I can point out various videos and blogs where her work is debunked but i have a hunch it wont be credible enough for you since you are such an ‘authority’ on games and media.
@marinerachel, i wonder who gave you the idea that all MRAs are white? I know many men of different races who identify as MRAs. Heck i even have a friend(indian) who identifies as an MRA. If you check the traffic of avfm, you can see that they have regulars from different continents. Also know two gay guys who are friends with my best friend who calls themselves MRAs. I dont use reddit much, but racism is usually never tolerated at avfm which is what i gathered from their recent articles. So your assumption that all MRAs are white is factually incorrect.
LOL:
I’m a gamer and I hate violent games (GTA, Red Dead Redemption) and I don’t play FPS either. But heck, I’ve been playing computer games since Space Invaders and was heavily into WoW for 5 years, including end game raiding. RPGs are my thing. But, shit, I guess since none of those sorts of games fits your narrow definition of gaming, guess I wasn’t a gamer either.
Nope, no red flag. And you have no other “examples” to “support” your contention that Anita is not a gamer.
She has used examples of tropes in games. She has used these to illustrate her point that the tropes exist. This is not nitpicking, this is demonstrating an evidence base for the existence of those tropes.
Your contention that you can pick out more than a handful (gosh, so maybe two handfuls then?) of female protagonsists is neither here nor there. For you to establish no gender issues in gaming, you must provide evidence that there is no difference in content aimed at male consumers vs. content aimed at female consumers. This includes, but is not limited to, the ability to choose the gender of one’s character in a game, demonstrating that clothing visuals are not gender-specific (e.g. clothing that accentuates female sexual characteristics for female characters, and no having male clothing that accentuates muscles is Not. The. Same. Thing), giving equivalent roles to male and female characters with respect to plot devices, and so forth.
The fact that there are some female protagonists in gaming, when computer games with gendered characters have been around for 30 years, does not demonstrate a lack of misogyny in gaming characters.
That you somehow apparently think that this is the case shows you have come to this type of argument ill-prepared with facts. Gosh, what a surprise.
Ahh.. WordPress tricked me.. Ahh.. -_-
Pallygirl, Intresting argument. But just a doubt, how do you suppose we can sexualize men? If not for muscles and shirtless runs, how can you further sexualize a guy? Or are you suggesting that men cant be sexualized? Or are you saying that women dont like looking at half naked men? The number of women who have rudely harassed me to take my shirt off in clubs immediately comes to mind. I wonder how much of that male celebs face. Its got to be 100x worse for them. Tell me.
@Anand, WordPress is just letting you know that your comments are low value and you should stop making them. Just like we’ve all been telling you.
@ Anand
You do realize that the Mario franchise is still going strong, right? And that part of examining tropes is looking at the history of the media, from the beginning to the present. Her videos end with modern games, and specifically point out games that are defying the tropes and getting better at representation of women. Last of Us was one example. She isn’t arguing that there are no good games, just that games can be problematic in terms of representation and that has real implications, same as any other media. Criticism is good, and good game designers welcome criticism because it helps us improve our games, think outside the box, and create a game that is both more unique and more universal. Do you seriously think that’s a bad thing?
And yes, if you want to continue believing what you do you shouldn’t post anything you wouldn’t want me to tear to shreds.
Anand, moving the conversation away from you and back to gaming, I was talking about clothing, i.e. what the characters normally wear, not what they’re in if you take all their gear off. And what tends to happen in games is that the female gear accentuates sexual characteristics and the male gear makes the male look bigger and stronger. This happens even with tiered armour sets, so they look completely different on depending on which gender is wearing them.
You missed that point, which was an obvious point, because you’re totes such a gamer.
Can you actually stay on topic, or can you only parrot talking bullet points as copy paste from elsewhere?
Oh look, that old misogynist saw. Can you explain in manly STEMlogic terms how the term “gamer” is defined as someone who plays shooting games? Here I thought that “gamer” meant a person who plays video/computer games. Then again I only have inferior ladybrainz. Please do enlighten.
You sure do have a lot of MRA buddies. Your claim to have ever been a neutral and “reasonable” person seeking the middle ground between the MRM and feminism wears thinner each time you post. Are you ever going to admit that you were lying and have identified as an MRA from the very start?
Hahaha!!! Guess you never played the Reddit or Stormfront game?
https://www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/2014/05/18/reddit-or-stormfront-the-hip-new-game-thats-sweeping-the-nation/
Anita Sarkeesian, born 1984. That puts her about two years older than me, so I’ll just run down a list of some of my favourite games from childhood.
Repton
Torin’s Passage
Spycat
Space Quest 6
Discworld
Mindmaze
Catz
Microsoft Flight Simulator
Ricochet
These are just the few off the top of my head, so… how the hell is not liking violent or shooting games a red flag?
Female characters often wear clothing that features a boob window. Yet male characters never have a penis or butt cleavage window? Why would that be?
Also, the humungous jacked up muscley male characters play to male power fantasies, not female sex fantasies.
Yes there are some male attracted women who like men who look like that, but in general lean muscles are more popular with us.
Bullshit. I’ve never played FPS, and I had an Atari in 1980. There’s at least three women telling you they’ve gamed and don’t like FPS, but you won’t believe us because YOU’RE AN ASSHOLE.
In fact, this is for you:
Honestly, though I do like some FPS and TPS games, there are very few that I enjoy that don’t allow for non-violent, or at least non-lethal strategies. I’m a fan of the Splinter Cell series, for instance, but I have very little patience for Conviction, because it’s the only one in the series that makes it impossible to get through the game without killing almost everyone you see. Fisher’s kind of an over-aggressive dick in Blacklist too, but at least you can get through it without acting like a serial killer.
I lost interest in gaming once I hit my teens, but I did love it as a kid. The only shooting I played was Duck Hunter. Mostly because it came in a package with the original Mario. I was a huge Mario fan. I also loved Tetris, the Legend of Zelda and something called Air Fortress.
RE: WWTH
Have you ever donated to any feminist who was subjected to harassment? Has it ever even crossed your mind?
Stop trying to taint Anand’s masculine logic with your feelings! He only has so much money to spend at a time you know.
RE: Anand
I doubt intelligent women like GWW, JB, typhonblue etc would support a movement that hates women.
BAHAHAHA! Did you MISS JB’s recent appearance where she said they had absolutely no evidence against that woman Emma, and that we should totally reach out and help her? Because of Reasons?
Yeah, she’s really intelligent, that JB. She really made me believe she cared.
She introduced herself as a childhood gamer whereas in a leaked viral video she says that she hated violent games and never liked shooting games.
Uh, dude. I played games when I was eight. They weren’t shooters or violent. Because I was eight. Do you even realize how stupid you are? Shooters aren’t ALL of video game dom! Christ. You might as well insist that you can’t be a reader if you don’t like mystery novels!
She bases her point on mario, a game made decades ago… Really!!?
So shooting games are important, but Mario, one of the most profitable video game franchises ever, isn’t. Riiiight.
But just a doubt, how do you suppose we can sexualize men?
I’M SO GLAD YOU ASKED! I want cocks. Lots and lots of cocks. Come on, you guys get huge boobs on your female characters, so I want cocks, and outfits that show off that cock, and I want those male characters to make goo-goo eyes at me and for the camera to lovingly fixate on their ass. I want them dressed in outfits that accentuate their masculine assets.
While taking a break at the festival, eating artisan smoked cheese and drinking craft beers, I thought I would post a link for everyone’s reading pleasure.
http://www.gamasutra.com/search/?search_text=Women
Gamasutra is gaming news for developers, not just fans, so it’s my primary gaming news source. The link is just a search for ‘women’.
Among the results;
http://gamasutra.com/blogs/JenniferAllaway/20140331/214320/The_Reality_of_Sexism_in_the_Game_Industry.php
http://gamasutra.com/blogs/ElizabethSampat/20140324/213806/Women_Dont_Want_To_Work_In_Games_And_Other_Myths.php
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/213613/Practical_advice_about_queer_characters_in_games.php
http://gamasutra.com/blogs/MaryFlanaganPhD/20140318/213356/By_2020_make_the_game_industry_5050.php
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/213512/Anita_Sarkeesian_more_up_for_nominations_at_Women_in_Gaming_Awards.php
And more! Just to show that, yes, we are taking sexism seriously (and homophobia, racism, etc). That last link is how Anita is nominated for an award by Microsoft and IGDA. Among others. So the idea that Anita is a lying liar who no one takes seriously is total bull. Go figure!