Is A Voice for Men using phony “death threats” allegedly directed at those planning to attend its upcoming “Men’s Issues” conference in Detroit, as well as upon employees and guests of the hotel where it’s scheduled to be held, as an excuse to smear feminists and raise a quick $25,000 in donations from readers and possibly even from a handful of gullible feminists?
As incredible as that sounds, that’s what some people I respect are saying. Despite AVFM’s history of lying about alleged feminist threats – you may recall John Hembling’s infamous confrontation with an imaginary mob of 20-30 feminists brandishing boxcutters – I’m not willing to go that far.
But there’s a lot about the story that makes no sense, and some big questions that need convincing answers.
1) The Doubletree Fort Shelby hotel has not confirmed that the letter Paul Elam posted on his site several days ago, and which he has now removed, actually came from them. The letter is, so far, the only evidence that there were any threats.
Hotel management needs to confirm whether or not they sent this letter to Elam.
2) Both the Detroit News and the Detroit Free Press spoke to Detroit Police spokesman Adam Madera, who told them that the police had not received any reports of death threats from the hotel. He told both papers that hotel staff had asked about hiring off-duty officers for security but hadn’t specified why.
Hotel management needs to confirm either that 1) they got death threats and didn’t report them or 2) that they got no such threats. They should also confirm whether their calls about off-duty police officers were related to the “Men’s Issues” conference.
There are a few other clues that support the “hoax” theory, though they’re far from definitive:
Several people who have allegedly contacted the hotel to ask about the threat say that the managers they spoke to knew nothing about the threats. Even if these reports are true, this may not be significant; managers may not have been told about threats related to a conference many weeks off.
The Detroit News also spoke to the owner of the hotel, and he said he was unaware of any threats. That may not be significant either; he may simply be out of the loop.
Essentially, we’re waiting for the Doubletree Fort Shelby management to answer these questions. If you look at the news coverage so far you’ll notice that the hotel staffers who can answer these questions don’t seem to be answering their phones or returning calls. I left a message for them today as well. No reply yet.
The other bits of evidence we’re waiting for? Well, the letter Elam claims he got from hotel management says that he and the other conference organizers need to send the hotel proof that they’ve hired the required number of Detroit police officers to handle security, as well as proof that they have also paid for at least $2 million in liability insurance. They have to have this done by the 6th.
In light of all the questions still swirling around, I think people are going to want to see this proof too.
It may be that the hotel comes forward and confirms that the letter was real, that the threats were real, and that indeed A Voice for Men does have to shell out $25,000 for extra security. It may even be the case that it was a feminist or a group of feminists making the threats. But we don’t know. And right now the people who do know are either not talking — or they have pretty much no credibility. Let’s hope the silence ends soon, because there’s no way the not-so-good folks at AVFM are suddenly going to turn credible overnight.
EDIT: I toned down some of the language, which I think was detracting from my main points, and added a new final paragraph.
EDIT 2: Removed some speculation. We’ll know some of the answers soon enough; no need to speculate.
UPDATE: DOUBLETREE STATEMENT
So I’ve heard back from Atiya Frederick, the PR Manager for Embassy Suites Hotels & DoubleTree, and she’s made clear that the hotel won’t be answering specific questions about any of this just yet. Here’s what she sent me.
At this time we are confining our comments on this matter to the below statement …
Hilton Worldwide strives to operate meeting places for people from all walks of life, regardless of beliefs, race, color, national origin, religion or sexual orientation. The views of our guests do not reflect the sentiment of Hilton Worldwide. As places of public accommodation, our hotels do not discriminate against any individual or group. Our goal is to provide quality accommodations and a pleasant environment for our guests, employees and members of our community . We would like to emphasize that we strive to be an inclusive company and regret if this policy has unintentionally offended any individual or organization.
This statement seems to be their standard response when they host a conference by a controversial group.
emilygoddess,
Point and laugh.
Anand: Weirwoodtreehugger, True. The more i read the comments here the more i support the MRAs. After coming across this thread, ive personally donated to avfm for the extra security costs. The fact that violence has been used once to silence MRAs for a peaceful talk is proof enough that there are going to feminists at this conference too.
Let me get this straight… you are supporting AVfM because there was, “violence” at a previous event; in another country. By Violence you mean, “someone pulled a fire alarm”.
So you will send money to a group which supported terrorism in pursuit of it’s aims? A group which has praised people who kill women.
You’re sense of “justice” is either significantly mis-calibrated, or you just don’t give a shit if women are the victims.
I will not tolerate violence from any group in an attempt to silence a particular group
Unless it’s AVfM saying women need to be beaten so they will shut about being abused.
Unless it’s AVfM saying rapists need to be acquitted so long as women can file rape charges.
Unless it’s violence directed at women. That you don’t really give a shit about.
I would never call myself an MRA or a feminist but i severely condemn violence.
Which is why you jus sent money to “Thomas Ball is a Hero” and “Bash a Bitch” Elam.
its a matter of protecting free speech for everyone.
Liar. No MRM event has been suppressed by feminists*. MRA have said women shouldn’t be allowed to vote. So you arn’t really in favor of supporting free speech if this is where your activist dollars are going.
I know you believe feminism is above criticism but using violence in the name of feminism or any other ideology to silence a group should and always should be condemned by the followers of the particular ideology
What you know is wrong.
Again, Elam, et al, encourage violence against those whom they disagree with. You sent them money. You therefore are supporting those who advocate violence, because a group which didn’t use violence is philosophically opposed to the violence of the MRM.
Again, you need to send your sense of justice into the shop to get it calibrated.
Anyone who thinks violence is a good way to get your point across will be mocked
Which is why you are mocking Elam. Oh! Wait, you aren’t. You are attacking someone who wasn’t violent, and libeling her. Got it.
*yes, some sponsors have pulled out of events when they found out about the nature of the speakers; and yes feminists told the sponsor, but there ws no force. Feminists used their free speech to tell the sponsors, who made their own decisions, so that dog don’t hunt.
Sarah: I have probably 6 people flaming me right now for being an illogical idiot for assuming law enforcement would be contacted.
They assert that the hotel would not want the bad PR/cause a panic.
They are wrong. The hotel will call the police if they have what they think is a credible threat. The Police aren’t in the habit of calling the press to say, “we have an investigation of this vague thing”. They call when they have some sensational bit of news to relate showing how good they are at stopping threats.
That, or when they need help from the public about something which has already happened.
The hotel, from a liability standpoint, has a greater interest in telling the police than they do for ignoring a threat they have reason to believe
Exactly. I can just imagine any insurer’s reaction after something happens, to find out that the hotel received threats beforehand and didn’t bother to tell the police. The hotel could forget making any insurance claim.
Yeah, you have to ignore logic and typical procedure for their argument to hold water.
I’m pissed at Doubletree for not confirming whether or not they sent the letter though. Kind of makes me want to print it out and hand it out to folks on the street by the hotel, ha.
sarah: The insurance would probably pay for direct cost, but subsequent costs (i.e. related to the lawsuits resultant) might be the subject of different legal troubles.
The only way to avoid the PR is to not inform the conference against which the threats were made. By sending a letter to the group; and demanding a level of security, they have made it a PR issue, and a larger one than, “we got some threats, we called the police”.
From the hotel’s POV the threats are immaterial. It’s not about the hotel, it’s about the group. Depending on the group it can be good PR. If, for example, it was a Muslim American group (this being Detroit) and they got threats, Doubletree can spin it as, “we care about free speech, and we won’t let this sort of harassment against our guests persuade us to cancel their event”.
But once they send a letter, it’s out of their control. Look at this event. It’s already over the news. They are getting calls from the press. They’d be stupid to not have turned any evidence over to the police.
That’s why, given that the police say no report has been made of the threats, that I think the letter is a fabrication.
I’d be willing to believe that they got death threats. Maybe they were even sent by a coven (because of course coven) of feminists. Not all feminists are reasonable, so, sure, it’s believable. The short notice makes it a little questionable, as does the lack of confirmation from the hotel or the police, but it’s not entirely outside the realm of possibility. Granted, only the corner of its right shoe is inside that realm, but that still counts as within. In no way is it our responsibility to pay for their security though. I’m not going to pay for security at KKK rallies just because I’m not a racist, I’m not going to pay for security at UKIP events just because I’m not an ignorant reactionary, and I’m not going to pay for security in this case just because I’m not a misogynist. Not a chance. Let them bilk their true believers.
So there’s this thing called “skepticism,” you might not have heard about it, but the basic idea is that you should make sure claims are actually, you know, true before you believe them and put your time and/or money into a product or cause.
It’s like when you go to a used car dealer, and they tell you that the rusty, buckled bike wheel in front of you is a world-class sports car that’ll give you eight billion miles to the gallon and you take a few minutes to yourself to consider how likely that it really is what they say it is. You take a walk around the whole rusty bike wheel, and you inspect it. You check for the reading on the odometer… check for an odometer… wonder why there’s so much taco sauce… look for it later. You inspect the way that the buckling improves its aerodynamic profile. You check the burger king voucher that you’re handed when you ask to see the documentation. Eventually, after you’ve seen all of the evidence, you decide not to buy this sports car. It’s saved me a lot of money so far.
How’s your shiny sports car doing? How well does it perform in a straight line? No veering off into the ditch, I’m sure.
See, what you’re forgetting is that if something ever happens, then it always happens. You know, like how there are a small number of false rape accusations which get pulled to pieces almost instantly, because of how they can be shown to be false, which means that 99.999% of rape accusations are false. The fact that a fire alarm was pulled once means that it always happens. It’s just that it’s a spiritual alarm pull all the other times, and only spritual fire fighters’ time is wasted.
They already know how to logic. They just need to learn how not to MRAlogic.
Enjoy your sports car.
……one of us has a very odd definition of violence.
Pfft, don’t you know that the only way men’s rights can really be protected is if feminism is first demolished? Demolishing feminism, of course, is accomplished by… um… giving people on reddit access to a private subreddit. I think we’re done for.
Well, Anand, if you’re giving money to Paul Elam and think that the red-haired feminist is the epitome of violence for swearing at a man and telling him to shut up while she was talking (as opposed to the doxxing, rape and death threats she received – I guess that doesn’t count as violence), then, what the hell is stopping you crime calling yourself an MRA?
You give money to an MRA organization and spout their talking points. Just be honest, if your capable.
You’re either dishonest or severely lacking in reading comprehension. Regardless, please stop saying things that aren’t true.
Also, how is saying “listen, fuckface” violent?
She was not merely ‘mocked’, she was continuously bombarded with horrific threats. Are you going to condemn the people who sent her rape and death threats?
Scott1139, Yes i do condemn people who doxxed her and sent threats to her. But it was a few trolls and a few angry people who may or may not identify as MRAs who did the doxxing. Paul Elam or avfm has never doxxed her or any other feminist out there. All information that he posts on the site have beem from social networking sites and websites where she willingly shared her details. The details were online and that’s what regirster-her does. They only share any information that the said person willingly shared on the internet(as is specified by the terms of conditions of the website or service through which she made the details public).
Also, i just read the bash a violent bitch article that everyone kept pointing at and he specifically mentioned in the article that it was satire. Its basically satire even though in poor taste.. Its silly to quote him from that article.
You mean like the recent posts on AVfM’s sister sites falsely accusing a woman of making death threats and encouraging people to contact her employer?
Anand:
Wrong.
That’s how they operate. They doxx random women, mostly those they think are the most vulnerable, like younger college women, in order to intimidate them. They post addresses and phone numbers so anyone angry enough to actually take it beyond Internet harassment can do so.
This is the organization you gave money to. You apparently don’t see a problem with this. That says more about you than anything else.
You’re either fucking stupid and gullible or a liar, Anand. Elam claims “it’s satire!” about every other thing he writes; it’s his go-to pretence. He’s not writing satire. This is the same man who says the thought of “fucking your shit up” gives him an erection (the “your” being feminists).
Do you think he was being satirical when he said he’d never vote guilty in a rape trial, even if convinced of the defendant’s guilt?
Do you think he was being satirical when he had Thomas Ball’s terrorism manifesto up on his site?
Your donation says more about you than you like: you’ve finally, indirectly admitted that you don’t give a flying fuck about male-on-female violence, and categorise women shouting as us being violent to men.
You’re just another whining MRA loser. Own your shit, sonny.
This bunny captures my reaction to reading Anand’s boring bullshit for the millionth time http://www.tumblr.com/tagged/sleepy-gif
Ah, right. So it’s ok to collect people’s information together in a centralised place, where people who might not be savvy enough to seek it out themselves, but, having that information, may well be motivated to cause harm to those people can browse it? There are no problems with that? Certainly, we have no trail of cases that demonstrate the actual violence and harassment that results from such things, no siree.
RE: Anand
After coming across this thread, ive personally donated to avfm for the extra security costs.
Well, you sure showed us. You should do it again, just to REALLY spite us!
The fact that violence has been used once to silence MRAs for a peaceful talk
Uhhhh huh. Violence. That’s really what you care about, Anand. One fire alarm pull and some shouting. Damn, I can’t IMAGINE what conniptions you’d go into if you dealt with shit like Pride.
RE: Athywren (good to see you again!)
he basic idea is that you should make sure claims are actually, you know, true before you believe them and put your time and/or money into a product or cause.
Exactly. I write stories and draw pictures for folks! I did it for free a long time and uploaded a large volume of work so people knew that I could actually do it, and every writeathon I throw, the more evidence there is that when people pay me, I write what they want. I’m running entirely on word-of-mouth and reputation, so no shit I’m not going to piss off my fanbase by fleecing them!
Anand: Yes i do condemn people who doxxed her and sent threats to her
And you send them money.
But it was a few trolls and a few angry people who may or may not identify as MRAs who did the doxxing.
But the, unsubstantiated, allegations of death threats… those must be from feminists? AVfM cheerleads doxxing and harassment (google register her). Them you boast of sending money.
Paul Elam or avfm has never doxxed her or any other feminist out there.
So you are an ignorant fool, or a liar (ok, I can’t rule out the strong possibilty the two states overlap in the Venn diagram of your life).
Also, i just read the bash a violent bitch article that everyone kept pointing at and he specifically mentioned in the article that it was satire.
David Duke says he doesn’t hate blacks, nor “condone” violence against them. But he’s a highly placed member of the KKK, so I am sure he’s not got any reason to dissemble.
But as to Elam and violence: He has said that he would never; even if he is certain beyond all doubt, vote to convict a man of rape.
That’s condoning violence against all women, because he disagrees with the politics of some.
But yelling at someone, that’s beyond the pale
And you are proud to send him money.
You are paying to support violence against women.
You are boasting about paying money to support violence against women.
Yet we are the horrid people, because we don’t think protesting people who think rape ought never be prosecuted isn’t something to be ashamed of.
It is funny how Anand dismisses a whole lot of rape and death threats sent to woman after AVFM doxxed her as the work of random trolls that can’t be connected to the MRM, but that Elam saying that their group received death threats that police have never heard of, and claiming this threat was made by a feminist (and then immediately asking for money) is something that Anand just accepts at face value.
RE: sparky
Ssssh! Anand is logical and unbiased and objective!
So, got in contact with the local FBI office, just down the block from the hotel.
No threats have been reported, and they said they would have DEFINITELY been contacted.
Sarah,
What a shock!
Sparky, I dont believe that ALL the protestors are feminists. I donated money to them only for the extra security. I havent donated to the website or their conference till date but only to the extra security that they need. Even if nothing happens, i would be glad to know that the conference went fine without any illegal protests(pulling a fire alarm).
Pecunium, i recently read a satire by a feminist who wanted a national castration day to castrate all males in public.
Yet you dont see me using that as proof for why feminism is evil.
Anand,
Have you ever donated money to Rebecca Watson for security after she got subjected to years of harassment and threats for reporting harassment in the atheist community? Because misogynists sure love to go after her,
Or what Anita Sarkeesian or Melissa McEwan? They get harassment and threats for the crime of writing while feminist. Did you ever donate anything to them?
Have you ever donated to any feminist who was subjected to harassment? Has it ever even crossed your mind?