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Men's Rights Activists respond to the Elliot Rodger murders with a hearty "Nothing to see here! Move along!"

nothing-to-see-here
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If anyone was hoping – against their better judgement – that Men’s Rights activists would be inspired by the tragedy in Isla Vista to reconsider any of their beliefs, or even to reflect for a moment on the many striking similarities between passages in Elliot Rodger’s book-length manifesto and comments posted every day by MRAs and others in the manosphere, well, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you should not keep that hope alive.

It’s not that they’re not talking about the tragedy. A look through the top 100 posts in the Men’s Rights subreddit, the largest Men’s Rights forum online, reveals that roughly a third of them, including the top stickied post, relate in some way to Elliot Rodger’s rampage and the discussions that have come up online and in the media in its aftermath.

But the message of virtually all of these posts is: “Nothing to see here! Move along!” There are numerous posts expressing outrage that anyone would see any connection between Rodger’s toxic misogyny to the Men’s Rights movement; there are others mocking and attacking the #YesAllWomen hashtag; there’s even one suggesting that Rodger, who wrote about how he longed to watch all the women of the world starve to death in concentration camps, wasn’t actually a misogynist at all.

Take a look. One post, with more than 500 upvotes, complains:

Feminists highjack what should be a Mental Health issue.
Another post makes a strikingly similar complaint:

Feminists Hijack A Mass Murder To Boost Self-Esteem
One angry MRA asks:

Why am I being compared to a mentally ill, narcissistic, racist, misogynist, sociopathic serial killer?
Another wonders:

So at this point would it be worth it to look into a Defamation suit against those trying to link MRA's with the recent tragedy?

Sorry to break it to you, fella, but that’s not how defamation suits work. If it were, all of us who call ourselves feminists would be collecting millions of dollars from the Men’s Rights subreddit for all the patently untrue things you guys say about us every day of every week.

Still others make sure that everyone knows that Rodger hated men too – not that this has actually gone unnoticed in the media or in discussions of the tragedy.

Proof that Elliot Rodger Hates Men
Finally! The MSM acknowledges that Elliot Roger hated *MEN*

And then there’s this fellow, who seems to think that Rodger only hated men, and that his big problem with women was that he loved them too much:

Elliot Rodgers the Misandrist. (self.MensRights) submitted 13 hours ago by TheWhimsicalFox In listening to Elliot's videos, and reading some of his manifesto, I almost feel as if this guy really just hated men. It seems as if he put women on a pedestal and held such an adoration for them that he could not understand how the "beasts" (among other terms)/men got to date them. This is a totally new idea for me, I haven't really thought it through for longer than a minute or two. So that's why I'm taking it here. What do you guys think?
There are, it’s true, two posts that raise the issue of what might be done to prevent tragedies like this from happening in the future. One of them takes on the issue of “virgin shaming.” (Sure, I’m against that, and against slut shaming too. Odd that roughly 100% of the virgin shaming I’ve ever heard in my life has come from MRAs and other non-fans of this blog, even though — sorry to break it to you fellows — I’ve not been a virgin since the early Reagan administration.)

Meanwhile, the other “positive” suggestion  — the stickied top post, submitted by one of the forum’s moderators — is pretty transparently intended as a PR move – and an excuse to bash feminists.

Time to get positive. What would help alienated men? (self.MensRights) submitted 20 hours ago * by nicemod - stickied post The recent tragedy in California has focused attention on troubled young men. Attempts by feminists to associate our movement with violence have met with little success, but have drawn many curious people to see what we're about. We can take advantage of this by proposing positive, male-friendly solutions to such problems. Proposals by feminists, based on the false assumption that maleness is inherently bad, will not work. What will? How could society effectively address male problems such as Loneliness Mental illness Alienation from society Virgin shaming Creep shaming Depression Demonisation What other issues need to be looked at? Please discuss.
Yep, “creep shaming.” That’s the problem! Way to cut through all the bullshit and get to the heart of the matter! The problem isn’t that some men — well, a lot of men — think and act in predatory and entitled ways towards women. The problem is that sometimes when they do, women call them “creeps.”

The problem isn’t that the world’s creepiest and most entitled man just killed 6 innocent people, the problem is “creep shaming.”

After killing his roommates and a friend of theirs, Rodger attempted to get inside a sorority so he could massacre the women inside it. But he couldn’t get anyone to let him in. Probably because, well, whoever was nearest the door thought he looked a  bit, well, creepy.

“Creep-shaming” isn’t some insidious form of discrimination against awkward men. It’s a defense mechanism that women develop to protect them against predatory men. And in the case of the Isla Vista murders, I’m guessing that the willingness of women to go with their gut sense that Rodger was a creep literally saved lives.

But the mods of the Men’s Rights subreddit would rather moan about “creep shaming.” They would prefer that women lower their defenses against men like Elliot Rodger — because it hurts their feelings to sometimes get called a “creep.”

Guys, this is why people think Elliot Rodger was an MRA.

EDIT: I added more to the conclusion because I had more to say about creep shaming.

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Chie Satonaka
Chie Satonaka
6 years ago

And there is already a truther movement claiming the shootings are a false flag. I knew there would be, but it just makes me sad, especially considering that these folks tend to stalk and harass the families of the victims now.

katz
6 years ago

Gah, the false flags. How can it be a false flag if actual people are actually dead?

Shiraz
Shiraz
6 years ago

Cassandra,

Nope, I didn’t read that bit. Err. Maybe I shouldn’t?

Chie Satonaka
Chie Satonaka
6 years ago

The claim is that “crisis actors” are hired to portray victims and the families of victims. As if the news is a stage play.

sparky
sparky
6 years ago

That Jezebel article:

OK, they’re just coming out and saying women are subhuman. They’re just coming out and saying that their should be and will be another more killing like this. They are amping each other up to do exactly what Rodger did. They are amping each other up to rape and murder women.

I mean, can society, like, I don’t know, take this shit seriously now?

WhatIsThisGravitasOfWhichYouSpeak
WhatIsThisGravitasOfWhichYouSpeak
6 years ago

@Chie

And then, what, promptly never mention they were hired for this again?

Alice Sanguinaria
6 years ago

I hate people sometimes. 🙁

Stevie
Stevie
6 years ago

Ah yes, we have the ‘go Elliot’; yet another idiot who thinks Ayn Rand’s novels represent reality. If I had a £ for every wannabe who thinks that threatening to go Galt is going to impress the world with their sheer awesomeness I would be a great deal richer than I am.

Oddly enough, Galt was into genocide as well; there seems to be something about the toxic brew of beliefs which tends towards the desire to wipe out anyone deemed to be inferior…

Suzy
Suzy
6 years ago

Oh my goodness…

The word is terrorism – terrorism fueled by misogyny.

It’s so f***** scary.

🙁

Chie Satonaka
Chie Satonaka
6 years ago

@WhatIsThisGravitasOfWhichYouSpeak

The theories often contradict each other and never hold up to much scrutiny, but I’ve learned that trying to debate someone who thinks this way is futile. I have a co-worker who just has no filter, and believes every one of these theories. I do whatever I can to avoid any subject that might set her off….and thanks to HAARP, that includes the weather. We’re pretty much on kittens and the evils of police brutality. It’s an odd intersection, but that’s where we connect.

hellkell
hellkell
6 years ago

Jesus Christ, Exene Cervenka of X is one of the conspiracy believers on this issue: http://dangerousminds.net/comments/exene_cervenka_the_victoria_jackson_of_punk_rock

Chie Satonaka
Chie Satonaka
6 years ago

Raw Story has a bit about Cervenka, too. Something about the convenience store replacing their windows too quickly for the shooting to be real.

weirwoodtreehugger
6 years ago

What I’m surprised about is that this is the first I’ve heard of false flag theories. I think the Sandy Hook theories were out there hours after the shooting because Alex Jones said something and he gets mainstream attention.

brooked
brooked
6 years ago

Dear people here, please sign this petition banning anyone from coming here and shilling that “I get to decide what terrorism is, right US Government?” petition.

http://31.media.tumblr.com/238cd8acc7c8452939aed8aead18aa0e/tumblr_mru736elBo1r0wqrdo1_500.jpg

Seriously, I’d rather hear about how their Aunt Trudi made $6,547 from home.

cloudiah
6 years ago

Exene’s health has been very poor in the last few years; I suspect there may be some relation between that and her descent into the conspiracy zone.

brooked
brooked
6 years ago

@Anand

Just to know, did the MRAs themselves make up the petition or was it a feminist as dean esmay claims? Im confused.

Yup, you’re very confused about many things. Nailed it.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

If I had a £ for every wannabe who thinks that threatening to go Galt is going to impress the world with their sheer awesomeness I would be a great deal richer than I am.

Today in arrogant young men, libertarian dude goes Galt, nobody notices.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

Also, WTF, Exene? I agree with the author – just imagine being stuck in a tour bus/van with someone who believes that kind of crap.

Flying Mouse
Flying Mouse
6 years ago

Holy cats, that Jezebel article. I feel badly for the writer; that’s being thrown in at the deep end.

The conversation she records at the 11:04 AM time stamp should be linked every time somebody starts to suggest that the brutally angry incel guys would be all better if they could just have any kind of access to partnered sex.

Breaking News: one of these guys hired an escort, he does not sound appreciative, and he is still hanging out in a toxic place with dissatisfied, angry misogynists. So it seems that making sex workers take one for the team is not going to fix anything, and will put more women in intimate contact with scary angry men. Who would have thought!

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
6 years ago

I made it to 12:04 and think I need to go play with my fish. Either that or talk my mother into giving me a ride to BF’s house so I can hit up my vodka. (He’s at work still, but is fine with me spending the night, I just need a goddamned ride!)

Also, someone broke my amazingly awesome $30 coffee thermos. It’s still useable but I am one PISSED Argenti!

grumpycatisagirl
6 years ago

So . . .um. The Amazing Atheist made a video about the shooting. Does anyone know what he said about this? I only know because a friend posted it on FB and said the AA was “right.” Having seen other AA videos, I cannot bear to watch it, so wondering if anyone here has had the stomach for it. I probably shouldn’t be arguing with my friend about how awful the AA is if I don’t even know what he said.

Stevie
Stevie
6 years ago

cassandrakitty

One of the things which strikes me most about the typical MRA rant is that it is the essence of Rand’s very strange ideas about the way human beings interact with each other; they are constantly searching for some way of quantifying themselves as superior to others. They are constantly searching for some way of having whatever they want without having to put in the hard work necessary to achieve anything worthwhile. They are constantly telling themselves that they deserve everything they want, and that the only reason they don’t have everything they want is because evil people have wickedly deprived them of it all.

It never seems to occur to them that, for example, the people winning Nobel Prizes do so because they’ve worked, and worked, and worked; it never seems to occur to them that the women they viciously abuse as being intellectually inferior have, in reality, demonstrated their abilities through education and training.

Even the less toxic expressions of misogyny, where, for example, ageing SF writers hold up Barbie as a suitable role model of quiet feminity, betray an incomprehension of the real world. They want women to ask nicely, rather than issue orders. In the real world my daughter leads the resuscitation team; when someone crashes there are four minutes before irreversible brain damage occurs, and in those four minutes certain things have to be done in the right order and the right time if the patient is going to survive. There is no time to ask people nicely, and if a member of the team doesn’t want to do something because women shouldn’t issue orders then the patient is most probably going to die.

Given that resuscitating people is exceedingly difficult in the first place, someone standing around huffing about how the team leader should have asked nicely is not a person you want caring for you. Barbie as a female role model is not good for life expectancy. Sadly this is not a point which has occurred to ageing SF writers, though I suppose they may discover it the hard way…

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

@ Stevie

Watch out, Erin might come back under a new nym to leave 300 comments screeching about how that last bit means you want ageing SF writers to die in the ER.

Shiraz
Shiraz
6 years ago

Sorry, grumpycatisagirl, I can’t stomach AA. I’ve covered homicides before for the AP, but watch a AA video. No. Life is too short.

Lea
Lea
6 years ago

AA? Nope. Listening to him is like listening to a long, sustained dog fart. You don’t enjoy the sound. The being making it hasn’t got sense enough to be embarrassed or apologetic. It adds nothing of value* to the world and it makes you want to leave the room immediately.

*Aside from the relief it must cause it’s issuer

weirwoodtreehugger
6 years ago

Judging from what all the other idiots are saying I’m sure it will be blah, blah, he was just crazy. Blah, blah, blah feminists evil, blah, blah, women only date assholes. Blah, blah, derp.

grumpycatisagirl
6 years ago

Well, what surprised me is my friend who posted it usually is very much pro-feminist, and has “liked” the anti-misogyny anti-entitlement-to-women articles I posted in the past few days.

cupisnique
6 years ago

Ugh, Amazing Atheist videos are unbearable. I tried to watch one in response to the Feminist Frequency videos, and just couldn’t. Knowing some very smart and feminist atheists makes the whole atheist, misogynist connection baffling to me because I know he’s not the only one out there,he might just be the loudest.

Stevie
Stevie
6 years ago

cassandrakitty

I’m sure that Erin is, indeed, dumb enough to come up with that sort of non sequitur; the fact that it’s misogynistic guys who endanger people is unlikely to register on that sort of brain.

Of course, there really are people stupid enough to try and grope a doctor in the ER; her worst example to date was when she removed a guy’s hand from her body and pointed out to him that it was inappropriate, whereupon he demanded to know ‘what good are you for then?’

It says a great deal about her commitment to her patients that she didn’t abandon him to a junior male doctor a great deal less capable of finding out what was actually making him ill.

I think that when it comes to spotting trolls it comes back to the fact that women have a shared experience of all the many and varied forms of crap that we encounter, and we spot it faster than people whose lives don’t expose them to said crap…

dntzdntz
6 years ago

Ok, so I try really hard not to comment on anything on the internet as a rule – there’s far too much being said about anything at any given time already – but there are two things I feel the need to opine on, and then I’ll go back to lurking quietly at the back and not smoking:

1 – This site is great, thank you for it. The OPs and comments. The fact that you are willing to unban and give another chance to noxious trolls is classy as all heck. I dig it. Thanks again.

2 – Exene… Just. Wow. Sad about this. “Today you’re gonna be sick so sick” about covers it. Time to hug a gallon of Rossi, blast “Under The Big Black Sun” and spray paint “Kill Yr Idols” on a crumbling factory wall like it’s 1995 :/

emilygoddess
emilygoddess
6 years ago

especially considering that these folks tend to stalk and harass the families of the victims now.

I did not know that. What would be the point? To make them “confess the truth”?

Alex Jones calls pretty much everything a false flag these days. He did it with the Boston marathon bombing. Then it turned out Tamerlan Tsarnaev was an Alex Jones fan, and shit got awkward…

Shadow
Shadow
6 years ago

@grumpycatisagirl

I decided to take the bullet for the team and watched the TAA video. Plus side: he acknowledges that Elliot Rodgers was a misogynist and that misogyny was a huge reason behind his actions. Minus side: everything else

brooked
brooked
6 years ago

If I had a £ for every wannabe who thinks that threatening to go Galt is going to impress the world with their sheer awesomeness I would be a great deal richer than I am.

Don’t you need to have achieved something outside of X-Box Live to go Galt? I
thought that Randian fantasy was meant for douchebag industrialists, top scientists and such.

Puddleglum
6 years ago

I have a co-worker who just has no filter, and believes every one of these theories. I do whatever I can to avoid any subject that might set her off….and thanks to HAARP, that includes the weather.

I have a coworker like this too! The HAARP thing gets her really going, some days.

Shadow
Shadow
6 years ago

@emilygoddess

What would be the point? To make them “confess the truth”?

I don’t know about all of them but, that’s certainly happened

Black Linen Sheets
Black Linen Sheets
6 years ago

And my post about the two pornstar suicides and the REAL character of patriarchy that we live in? David Frutell’s response: Sorry nothing to see here.

And his blog readers are worse.

The lonely guy mysoginy is engendered by something that resembles a barbaric quasi poligamy, so to be sure I’m not blaming women. I’m blaming male sexual privilege i.e. social status.

Neither you nor anyone else but me is arming young men and women today with the knowledge they need to raise the real issues and not sidestep them with pop psychology and smarmy self satisfied elitism.

You like to bash on this guy but like I said, it’s a probablistic unlikelihood that women wouldn’t be attracted to him. He wasn’t denied women, women were denied him! Meanwhile, two women do pornos and are bullied to suicide. Where is the real problem? It’s on your side, not mine buddy.

Psychopathy is better reflected by the news and the blogosphere and laughable impotence in dealing with the points I have been raising here and elsewhere for a long time.

In fact men and women are entitled to sex and attention because guess what, those are natural human needs.

The real critical point is with standards of beauty and attraction, but you will never approach a resolution to that point in the manner you are going about here. You are contributing to the problem with your two sided slimy rhetoric and you are only trying to humiliate and disempower victims both male and female alike. You are shameful to say the least.

And as for MRA’s. Misguided trolls dealing with these same issues.

Lids
6 years ago

Idk if I mentioned it here, but a few days ago someone showed up in one of the asexual groups i am part of on facebook and started talking about how they were going to become asexual “before something bad happened.” And talked about how there was going to be an incel 9/11.

These people are scary. But you know, I have no reason to fear men and the reason I’m considering getting pepper spray for the first time in my life is I’m just a paranoid woman who hates men.

grumpycatisagirl
6 years ago

Hey, thank you, Shadow! I’m still left wondering what the hell my friend thought was so insightful about the video then . . .

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

Idk if I mentioned it here, but a few days ago someone showed up in one of the asexual groups i am part of on facebook and started talking about how they were going to become asexual “before something bad happened.”

So, I’m not really super educated about asexuality, but isn’t that kind of not how it works?

brooked
brooked
6 years ago

@cupisnique

Knowing some very smart and feminist atheists makes the whole atheist, misogynist connection baffling to me because I know he’s not the only one out there,he might just be the loudest.

It’s well substantiated that there’s a ton like him out there, hence his fan base. Asshole atheists is one of the more depressing things I discovered on the internet, which is really saying something.

Lids
6 years ago

It isn’t lol. And I told him that and so did many people in the group, but he got very offended because we weren’t being supportive. I would have been supportive had he been not sounded entitled as hell, has brought it up somewhere OTHER than an asexuality group, and had realized asexuality simply means lack of sexual attraction, not death of libido.

He wanted to be chemically castrated, though as I understand that doesn’t work quite that well. Either way I did call him out initially because goddamn I am sick of people talking about “becoming asexual” or telling me how great and easy it must be for me (as a matter of fact, in a society where sex and romance are huge parts of our lives and media, being an asexual aromantic is NOT easy for me).

After I called him out initially a few other people chimed in, and he got angrier and angrier, insisting women all wanted bad boys.

All in all, not sure if he was legit, or a troll who was feeding off the Eliot Rodgers case. I was the day after it happened. Either way it was creepy and annoying.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

In all seriousness, is there any internet space where these dudes won’t try to sell their tales of woe? They’ll be on Etsy any day now, whining about how the vendors will only sell to bad boy alphas.

Lids
6 years ago

The incel 9/11 comment was one of the last comments he made before we started ignoring him and talking about music taste (I brought up classic love songs as a way to clean your mind of his shit). He was removed from the group and the post removed when the mod woke up the next morning.

weirwoodtreehugger
6 years ago

Don’t you need to have achieved something outside of X-Box Live to go Galt? I
thought that Randian fantasy was meant for douchebag industrialists, top scientists and such.

Yes, but they all think they’re in the ubermensch category. They’re aggrieved because the inferior people are taking and mooching but they don’t realize that they’ve benefited from big government too. In a Randian utopia they would probably not be at the top of the heap.

I’d love to see a movie where a guy like this is transported into an alternate universe where the we live in a society like this and he learns to be careful what you wish for.

Lids
6 years ago

This actually happens in the AVEN group every few weeks or months. Someone along the same vein as this guy will pop up whining about wanting to be asexual and women being evil. It’s rather annoying. And they always try to guilt us too.

Oh! One of my favorite parts from this guy was him insisting that women couldn’t understand the male libido. It’s apparently different for men (tell that to my crazy asexual libido – I have a higher libido than the majority of the people I know who aren’t asexual).

pecunium
6 years ago

Katz: Gah, the false flags. How can it be a false flag if actual people are actually dead?

The fantasy is this is all a dramatic put-up. No one really died, it was all make-up and actors. By pretending to Rodger killed people a false idea that misogny is rampant can be created, and women/feminists will be able to further their agenda.

This is seriously a style of thinking which various reactionaries engage in. It’s the ENTIRE basis of “Newton Truthers”.

Lids
6 years ago

@ pecunium

I assume it’s similar to the whole “Nazi concentration camps never happened” conspiracy theories then?

emilygoddess
emilygoddess
6 years ago

Knowing some very smart and feminist atheists makes the whole atheist, misogynist connection baffling to me

Atheist/skeptical MRAs are such a contradiction. “I don’t believe in anything without evidence! Now let me tell you about hypergamy and how feminists control the government…”

@Black Linen Sheets, I find it really hard to understand what you’re even going on about, and your refusal to actually engage with people here doesn’t exactly make me want to try.

Gah, the false flags. How can it be a false flag if actual people are actually dead?

“False flag” doesn’t necessarily mean the thing didn’t happen. It means person A did the thing and then put person B’s flag on the scene (meaning they made it look like someone else did it). It’s like the standard Truther line that the U.S. did 9/11 and tried to blame it on Arab terrorists.