The We Hunted the Mammoth Pledge Drive continues! If you haven’t already, please consider sending some bucks my way. (And don’t worry that the PayPal page says Man Boobz.) Thanks! And thanks again to all who’ve already donated.
If anyone was hoping – against their better judgement – that Men’s Rights activists would be inspired by the tragedy in Isla Vista to reconsider any of their beliefs, or even to reflect for a moment on the many striking similarities between passages in Elliot Rodger’s book-length manifesto and comments posted every day by MRAs and others in the manosphere, well, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you should not keep that hope alive.
It’s not that they’re not talking about the tragedy. A look through the top 100 posts in the Men’s Rights subreddit, the largest Men’s Rights forum online, reveals that roughly a third of them, including the top stickied post, relate in some way to Elliot Rodger’s rampage and the discussions that have come up online and in the media in its aftermath.
But the message of virtually all of these posts is: “Nothing to see here! Move along!” There are numerous posts expressing outrage that anyone would see any connection between Rodger’s toxic misogyny to the Men’s Rights movement; there are others mocking and attacking the #YesAllWomen hashtag; there’s even one suggesting that Rodger, who wrote about how he longed to watch all the women of the world starve to death in concentration camps, wasn’t actually a misogynist at all.
Take a look. One post, with more than 500 upvotes, complains:
Another post makes a strikingly similar complaint:
One angry MRA asks:
Another wonders:
Sorry to break it to you, fella, but that’s not how defamation suits work. If it were, all of us who call ourselves feminists would be collecting millions of dollars from the Men’s Rights subreddit for all the patently untrue things you guys say about us every day of every week.
Still others make sure that everyone knows that Rodger hated men too – not that this has actually gone unnoticed in the media or in discussions of the tragedy.
And then there’s this fellow, who seems to think that Rodger only hated men, and that his big problem with women was that he loved them too much:
There are, it’s true, two posts that raise the issue of what might be done to prevent tragedies like this from happening in the future. One of them takes on the issue of “virgin shaming.” (Sure, I’m against that, and against slut shaming too. Odd that roughly 100% of the virgin shaming I’ve ever heard in my life has come from MRAs and other non-fans of this blog, even though — sorry to break it to you fellows — I’ve not been a virgin since the early Reagan administration.)
Meanwhile, the other “positive” suggestion — the stickied top post, submitted by one of the forum’s moderators — is pretty transparently intended as a PR move – and an excuse to bash feminists.
Yep, “creep shaming.” That’s the problem! Way to cut through all the bullshit and get to the heart of the matter! The problem isn’t that some men — well, a lot of men — think and act in predatory and entitled ways towards women. The problem is that sometimes when they do, women call them “creeps.”
The problem isn’t that the world’s creepiest and most entitled man just killed 6 innocent people, the problem is “creep shaming.”
After killing his roommates and a friend of theirs, Rodger attempted to get inside a sorority so he could massacre the women inside it. But he couldn’t get anyone to let him in. Probably because, well, whoever was nearest the door thought he looked a bit, well, creepy.
“Creep-shaming” isn’t some insidious form of discrimination against awkward men. It’s a defense mechanism that women develop to protect them against predatory men. And in the case of the Isla Vista murders, I’m guessing that the willingness of women to go with their gut sense that Rodger was a creep literally saved lives.
But the mods of the Men’s Rights subreddit would rather moan about “creep shaming.” They would prefer that women lower their defenses against men like Elliot Rodger — because it hurts their feelings to sometimes get called a “creep.”
Guys, this is why people think Elliot Rodger was an MRA.
EDIT: I added more to the conclusion because I had more to say about creep shaming.
Thanks, David. Please feel free to delete my quotes of him.
While I found it amusing that we had total control over his behavior, I think other priorities are more important.
Yay he’s gone! My first real Mammoth troll. And he even said I should have died! *giggles forever*
Okay, now I should probably go to sleep ’cause OMG CUPCAKES TOMORROW! Who likes red velvet and cream cheese frosting?
*waves* hi pecunium, email me, we have stuff and things to discuss!
Everyone — I’m off to bed too, getting more teeth drilled tomorrow >.<
I’m off, too. I hope no one was too upset by the troll. But I found that to be a pretty amusing meltdown.
David, I am sure I am a good bit older than you, but your comment when you came back made me feel like a kid caught teasing the dog until someone tripped and broke a lamp (not that I know how that feels).
I almost expected you to say “This is why we can’t have nice things.”
Yeah, I’ll go ahead and delete your comments too, Cloudiah.
I don’t know if he was a returning troll. His IP was new and didn’t map anywhere weird. If he was, seems like kind of a stupid hobby.
Thanks for being amazing, everyone! Have good sleeps!
Well, except the troll. You are not amazing. Troll, thanks for ignoring everything serious everyone posted. You were a hilariously awful person. Have a dull, average, mediocre night!
Trying to be as ridiculous as you was quite fun!
David, I’ll try to get somewhere with internet not on my phone, tomorrow. I owe you for dealing with trolls like this, and my own silliness.
Tough job, for sure!
Thank you David. You run a fine blog.
Mammotheers, you are delightful.
‘Night all.
I honestly think it’s possible that this moron wasn’t a returning troll and only said he was because he wanted to “prove” that we couldn’t keep him away.
Katz,
It would not surprise me.
“@Davis, If you keep coming back, you are acknowledging that we control your behavior. We’ve won.”
Why does it have to be about winning? Why can’t many of you accept that others have different opinions and enjoy lively discussions without degenerating into personal attacks?
Actually, I thought he was scary — and in fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if he had stalked people in real life. He had that, “I’m gonna sit on your lawn until you tell me what I want to hear” vibe. That kind of boundary-pushing, misogynistic venom that freaks women out in meatspace.
Actually, David could do a post about it. “Don’t Be These Guys,” could be the header. The trolls of late have been ringing endorsements for why being sexist (MRA/PUA) is so fucking uncool and freaky.
He kept insisting Rodger had nothing to do with MRA. The other troll, can’t remember his name, was more concerned for PUA. I’m kind of pissed that that asshole troll, plucky or whatever, was in the other thread demanding that feminism basically focus on men’s rights –(here’s a clue, it’s not suppose to) When in fact, all he knew about actuall feminism was made out of fucking straw. I mean, this recent crop of trolls is the most angry and self-entitled I’ve seen. Cross traffic from all the Rodger apologists?
Were you here in the days of the blog herpes, Shiraz? He had a Ph D in Angry, Entitled and Stalkerish. So did ones like DKM and NWO – but they expressed it differently, probably because they were older than this lot (and those two in particular had more weird between them than anyone else I can think of). None of them know a thing about feminism, they’re just enraged that anything gives women the idea we can say No to any man about anything, that we can be the centre of any conversations, that we aren’t their property any more. None of them see us as human, however they frame it.
After Sodini’s attack, the feminist blogosphere was the only place discussing the obvious misogynist source. The MSM salivated over his manifesto for a few days and then immediately forgot about him without making a real connection to our culture’s problem with male entitlement and toxic masculinity. No one that I’ve talked to about Rodger even remembers George Sodini. They don’t remember Charles Carl Roberts, who separated the boys and girls in an Amish schoolhouse and then shot all of the girls. They don’t remember Marc Lepine. They never heard of Thomas Ball.
But this time, the thread of misogyny is being discussed by the MSM. The MRM is being exposed to the masses as the cesspool of abusers and terrorists that it is. I see a glimmer of progress.
JJ, what kind of dog do you have? Dogs seem to have a habit of not realizing how big they’ve gotten. My Border Collie used to try to fit in my lap, which was about half as big as he needed. So he’d flop his front half in, roll over for belly rubs, flop his front half out so his butt was front and center for scritches.
He also thought he was a cat. We even caught him standing on the table once.
Which was not a problem for you when it was just rape and murder we were talking about, but lying about paternity is serious business!
THIS HAS BEEN ADDRESSED AT LEAST A DOZEN TIMES. It’s almost like you don’t actually care to hear an answer.
All the things people have said to you, and being called boring is what brings out the rage? LOL.
Also, you’re a fucking misogynist.
So you admit all that bullshit about the lengths you go to to avoid women was just bullshit posturing? I am so shocked, let me tell you.
Also, this is some stalkery, boundary-ignoring, rapey shit and there’s not enough ~creep shaming~ in the world for you right now.
I don’t know why I keep asking this of tone trolls, since they never answer, but: why do you think you’re entitled to a respectful reply? Why is it OK for you to insult us, but not for us to insult you?
Oh my god, that’s just sad. In an “I’m LOLing IRL” sort of way, but still…
The original post mentions virgin-shaming. I think it’s worth it to examine how popular culture promotes the notion that being sexually active is part of the definition of being an adult. In the 1950s and before, there was a strong idea that one was supposed to be a virgin until marriage. Not everyone held out, but there was less shame in being 25 years old with no sexual experience. But since the 1970s and 80s, it’s assumed that “all the kids are having sex” starting in early high school or middle school, TV and movies portray girlfriends and hooks-ups as being fairly easy to get (they’re not for a large percentage of guys). When someone at work was in a bad mood, both men and women might joke that the person “needs to get laid.” Though I might get flamed for saying this, some women have told me that a reason “nice guys” are turned down is sometimes because not-nice guys are perceived and being more sexually experienced and would be better in bed. (This was in the 80s-90s before the Nice Guy(tm) meme was invented.)
While I didn’t have a whole lot of sex before I was 30, I did have some (with long dry spells), going back to before I was 18, so I didn’t see myself in the “Last American Virgin” club (that was actually the title of a 1980s teenage sex comedy). But between the natural sex drive and popular culture messages suggesting something’s wrong with you if you’re not sexually active, I can imagine what a virgin past the age of 20 must feel.
No the solution is not some sort of sexual affirmative action plan. Nor does this justify the actions of Eliot Rogers or the hateful MGTOW videos I put myself through listening to for the first time yesterday.
I don’t believe I was around for blog herpes, kitteh. Errr, was that his handle?
1) Lesbian sex much insult wow
2) HIV does not work that way.
And now I reach the part where he’s b& (again). But since he’s almost certainly still reading, I’ll go ahead and point out that he was a sad, pathetic little man. Even my socially awkward almost-fiancee (who obviously can’t get women, because socially awkward) thought he was funny, and he usually just smiles politely when I talk about our trolls.
Deste, I hope your first day is going/went well! (IDK what time zone you’re in)
You say “hobby”, I say “rage and boundary issues”. Tomayto/tomahto.
We did have that one guy recently complain about being re-banned every time he tries to post here, and David was like “that’s because you’re banned, dummy”. Can’t remember if he was as angry as this guy, though.
Do you remember those Loony Tunes cartoons with the singing frog? He would sing and dance, but only in front of one character, and whenever the character tried to claim he had a singing, dancing frog, the frog would just sit there and people would decide the character was crazy. That’s how I feel when I try to talk about the common thread joinging these killers, or sometimes misogyny in general: it’s so goddamn obvious to me, but other people think I’m seeing things.
@Shiraz, a post about Blog Herpes
We need a wiki or something.
What on earth is the point of sockpuppeting if one is determined to act in exactly the same way that resulted in one’s being banned? As disguises go, that is not a particularly effective one. I suppose there might be some satisfaction in requiring that time be taken up with banning one, but really it seems as if there would be more satisfaction in nearly anything else: Pie; flowers; pets; lying in the sun; existing while not being an asshole. Really it is very puzzling.
New to this blog. I’ve never heard of some these anti-woman websites until this latest mass shooting. Glad this blog is here documenting and shaming the misogynists. Well done David.
https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/classify-mens-rights-movement-terrorist-group/W5018W63
Fellow manboobers,
Please sign this petition to declare men’s rights as a terrorist organization. The MRA’s and paul elam himself has already signed it. Now its your turn to save the country from the evils of men having rights. Many thanks to the feminists who wrote the petition. Please spread the word.
Yours truly,
Creepy Man.
emilygoddess said:
My house has a nice, big sunny back patio that attracts all kinds of animal life when the weather is nice – lizards in particular. Occasionally, if one of my kids leaves the door open too long, one of these little guys will skitter into the house. For obvious reasons I don’t want wild reptiles running free in my home, so I get to suspend whatever it was I was doing and chase them around with a shoebox. My dog, who is a fearsome predator of most small things, will sit idly by, more interested in napping or playing with her tug rope than catching the intruder. One time a skink literally ran over her front paws in an attempt to escape my Shoebox of Doom, and her response was a look that translated to “meh.”
So I kind of think that the broader world’s reaction to misogyny is kind of like my dog’s response to lizard home invasions: at most they’ll acknowledge it exists, but they’re usually more comfortable distracting themselves with other stuff because acknowledgement means they might actually have to do something.