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Pickup artists argue that "Game" is the solution to Elliot Rodger-style rampages. Here’s why they’re wrong.

From Elliot Rodger's Google+ Profile
From Elliot Rodger’s Google+ Profile

Pickup artists, classy fellows that they are, are using Elliot Rodger’s killing rampage as a marketing ploy. In the comments to one of Rodger’s videos on YouTube, a company called Strategic Dating Coach offered their solution to prevent similar shootings in the future: send disturbed young men who can’t get dates to one of their coaching sessions!

THIS is why we do what we do. TO PREVENT THIS SHIT!!! Could couldn't experience it because he didn't learn to attract women. He should have gone to our website and got our personal dating coaching or purchased one of our products. IF ANYONE NEEDS HELP, CONTACT US! Don’t do anything stupid.

While this response to Rodger’s mass killing is uniquely crass, the argument that “Game saves lives” is hardly new. To PUAs like Heartiste and Roosh Valizadeh it’s practically an article of faith.

In the wake of George Sodini’s murderous shooting spree in a Pennsylvania gym in 2009, Heartiste (then known as Roissy) wrote

If Sodini had learned game he would have been able to find another woman and gotten laid after his ex dumped him. He wouldn’t have spent the next 20 years steeped in bile and weighed down by his Sisyphian blue balls, dreaming of vengeance. Game could have saved the lives of the women Sodini killed.

The fact that Sodini had in fact imbibed in the alleged wisdom of pickup artistry, going so far as attending a pricey seminar from old-school pickup guru R. Don Steele, a self-proclaimed expert on dating young women, didn’t lead any in the pickup community to reconsider this position.

Nor has it this time. It is clear that Elliot Rodger was steeped in “red pill” thinking about women. And while he wasn’t himself a PUA, he was certainly aware of the basics of “Game.” Indeed, he subscribed to a number of PUA channels on YouTube and was a regular commenter on PUAhate, a sleazy forum devoted to criticizing “game,” not because it is manipulative and misogynistic but because it doesn’t work.

On the Roosh V forum earlier today, Roosh acknowledged that Rodger knew at least a little about “red pill” ideology – noting that Rodger referred to himself as an”alpha” – but still went ahead and argued that Game was the solution to massacres like this:

He is self-delusional and massively entitled, but exposing him to game may have saved lives.

In a followup comment, Roosh expressed his concerns for the real victims of this tragedy – Pickup artists:

I’m trying to think of ways our enemies will come after us because of this, but if anything, we’re the solution to this sort of murder rampage. This is the society that progressives wanted, where women are fully able to choose the top 10% of alpha males while shaming masculinity, leaving beta males with modest resources in the dust. Of course they will simply push a ban on guns, but this wholly neglects the cause. Seven people died because this guy couldn’t get laid … .

Other commenters were quick to agree. According to someone known as Moma,

Roosh has a very valid point. This will continue to replay over and over again. As human beings, our wiring is very basic yet primal. …

When have you last heard of a porn star shooting up a place? How many have emptied their balls in a hot lizard and then felt the urge to go and smoke 50 strangers?

According to Samseau, the problem wasn’t that Rodger hadn’t heard the Game Gospel; the problem was that he had rejected his salvation:

He knew about Game. If he had an account on PUAHATE then he knew about game. He was just a denialist. There was no helping this dude.

Roosh seconded this bit of wisdom, seeing it as clear evidence that “game denialism kills.”

Michelin, for his part, hoped that PUAs would be able to use the massacre as a publicity bonanza and a great “told you so” to all the haters.

One should write a mainstream article about this case. The argument that game could have saved lives can be an eye-opener and a smash in the face to haters of game.

Tuthmosis, the man best known for a Return of Kings post on the “5 Reasons to Date a Girl With An Eating Disorder,” reported his joy that PUAhate was getting bad press:

Seeing your enemies fall is a delicious treat you only get to taste a few times in your life. I’m savoring this delicacy with a cup of freshly brewed coffee. It’s a shame real people had to lose their lives, but I can’t help but think this will discredit a horrible website, PUAHate–and a way of thinking–that could have harmed even more men and innocent people. Beta losers will never go away, but this will wake up a few men and, more importantly, scare others.

Zelcorpion blamed “girls” and MGTOWers for giving Rodgers bad dating advice:

I bet a few girls told him that he only needs to be himself, be nice, be a gentleman, have a nice car, looks etc. – only to realize that it mattered shit. Instead of learning from the PUA-community he chose to listen to PUAhaters and some of the anti-female comments of the MGTOWs who themselves are often refusing to accept Game or even basic concepts like Alpha/Beta. I think that problem will become way worse, since hypergamy and promiscuity will only increase and most men will be left in the sexual wasteland.

But it took a relative newcomer to the forum by the handle of thedavidgt to raise the obvious logical objection to the Game-for-everybody solution to incel rage:

If every sexless beta in the world took it upon himself to learn game, approach girls, lift, dress well etc, would it not simply feed women’s egos and entitlement? So instead of occasionally getting awkwardly hit on by skinny fat, poor-dressed chumps, the average 7 would then be approached several times a day by extremely high value men. We’ll have a society of men working to improve themselves for women who will get lazier and lazier while at the same time demanding more and more.

In fact, the “Game saves lives” mantra is dead wrong, but not for this reason. First of all, there is no clear evidence that “game,” per se, works, except insofar as it encourages men to pursue large numbers of women and numb them to the pain of rejection. It’s possible that a few of the conversational ploys invented by various PUAs may work better than having no conversational ploys at all. But there are no magic cheat codes to “getting with women.”

There is one more disturbing way in which “game” may increase “success” with women for unscrupulous men: many of the standard techniques of “game”– invading a woman’s personal space, touching her repeatedly, trying to “isolate” her from her friends – may serve as “tests” to find women who are less likely to resist violations of their boundaries. In this way, “game” may serve as a quite effective enabler of date rape. Indeed Roosh himself has admitted to raping a date too drunk to consent.

So how much of a solution is training a guy who is already filled with a toxic mixture of entitlement and self-loathing (yes, these strange bedfellows do often go together) in some techniques that might help him to tamp down his insecurities enough to manipulate some willing or not-so-willing women into bed?

You might have simply turned a mass killer into a serial rapist, or possibly a serial killer. Ted Bundy was quite the charmer. Somehow this didn’t make him a decent human being.

Even if “game” were the beneficient form of “self-improvement” that some of its proponents like to claim it is, teaching Rodger how to be a better dater would not make him a better person. Would having a girlfriend solve all his problems? Hardly. Relationships require patience and compromise and mutual respect, and Rodger seems to have had none of these qualities. Instead of directing his narcissistic rage at “girls” at large, he would likely have ended up abusing a string of girlfriends.

The problem wasn’t Rodger’s lack of “Game.” It was his lack of humanity.

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contrapangloss
6 years ago

I’m done giving Mr. Best Feminist advice and my goodwill.

Cassandra, I am sure you were sincere. Maybe not the most obviously sincere because tone really doesn’t carry, but sincere. Maybe it could have been worded better, but I’d trust you over this goof, any day.

Also, I have a back button.

Bra Question for fellow night owls and day timers on the other side of the globe:

Any advice for size and jiggle minimization? I’ve been layering three for drill nights and when I’m on call. It’s not like you can tell underneath the bunker gear, but the jiggle and in the way-ness is obnoxious to feel, otherwise.

Marie
Marie
6 years ago

@Erin

care to stave off boredome someplace else? You always make up a new excuse to stay…

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

The bra that I was complaining about actually minimizes jiggle quite effectively, but I’m not sure it would be any help to you given the whole poking into the underarms issue.

Erin Williams
Erin Williams
6 years ago

Oh, I don’t need to make up anything, kid. You’re providing all the material necessary. All this flailing because your ego’s feeling bruised, oh noes.

Flailing? My ego? Good generalization there, kid. You’d make a fantastic honey badger.

dustedeste
dustedeste
6 years ago

Ohhhh noez, the Grand Arbiter of teh Feminismz called me a mean little girrrrlllllll I’m going to have to go cry myself to sleep nowwww

Oh wait, I don’t give a shit about what our current complete shithead of the day has to say. Go away if you can’t manage “walls of text” a grand two paragraphs long (with paragraph breaks thrown in free of charge, even!)

I’ll say it again: Vai via, putanella <3

Marie
Marie
6 years ago

More animal analogies! There is the Erin we know and do not love!

wewereemergencies
wewereemergencies
6 years ago

That is…even cooler than a lion/porcupine. Ancient art of mythological figures is the best art.

Ooh Erin has most def. cowed me with zie’s superiority. Trolling WHTM is the best procrastination you can think of? Really?

Erin Williams
Erin Williams
6 years ago

Nope/. Here’s fine, Marie. If you don’t like it you can kindly fuck off somewhere else. It’s a free country after all.

cupisnique
6 years ago

Meh, I’m so done with “Erin”. You twist people’s words on the site and expect us to get equally outraged by the imaginary issues you’ve created. It’s not worth the effort to re-explain that you’re creating boogymen out of nothing, it’s already been tried. You’re clearly the real victim here of us horrible mean girls (like seriously do you only watch terrible movies about highschool in the US?)

Marie
Marie
6 years ago

@Erin

Not leaving cuz of a tiny little thing like you, Erin.

Erin Williams
Erin Williams
6 years ago

Unlike you I didn’t have to use google translate. By the way, you ignored every point I made and you went straight for the insults. Good work. You too would make an excellent honey badger.

Erin Williams
Erin Williams
6 years ago

Me neither, Marie.

Marie
Marie
6 years ago

@erin

We’ll see who leaves when the banhammer comes around 😛

contrapangloss
6 years ago

Yeah, underarm pokey would be bad. Bra shopping is heck.

Erin Williams
Erin Williams
6 years ago

I’m the one twisting people’s words? Get over yourself. You were the one too lazy to revise what was said, remember?

Erin Williams
Erin Williams
6 years ago

Fuck the ban hammer.

dustedeste
dustedeste
6 years ago

Erin: asks questions

answer is given

Erin: whines about the answer being too long for his delicate manbrain, in a comment about 2/3 as long as the answer given, while using gendered slurs that reinforce the opinion everyone’s already formed of this shitbag

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

@ contrapangloss

What size are you, though? I think that the pokey thing probably wouldn’t be an issue in the D and under range. My experience so far with Cleo bras is that they all seem to hold the breasts quite close to the body and sort of forwards, so if what’s annoying you is having them interfere with the movement of your arms it might be worth looking into the brand in general.

Erin Williams
Erin Williams
6 years ago

like seriously do you only watch terrible movies about highschool in the US?

I don’t know. Why don’t you ask the other Americans posting here?

First you assume I’m too young and then you assume I’m a stupid American.

cupisnique
6 years ago

You were the one too lazy to revise what was said, remember?

Not even sure what that means. I was too lazy to find the one comment that you are so fixated on by Cass, and not interested in trying to explain something to you that has already been explained by countless others here. Why would I waste my time when you clearly are just here to antagonize people? It is obvious you’re not here in good faith (if you ever were to begin with) and are not here to learn about being an ally, otherwise you would have listened instead of tried to talk over everyone.

contrapangloss
6 years ago

Marie, you are wonderful, by the way! Looking forward to the art, immensely.

Marie
Marie
6 years ago

@erin

I have no idea what you’re going on about.

kittehserf
6 years ago

contrapangloss, I guess you’ve already tried sports bras?

LOL trolly now thinks using honey badger is a meaningful insult. Fail again.

Also, take a look at what generalisation means, next time you’re using a dictionary. Talking specifically about your actions on this thread is by definition not generalising.

neuroticbeagle
6 years ago

Fuck the ban hammer.

Well, now I’m convinced Erin isn’t sock puppeting/ hasn’t been here before.*snark*

Marie
Marie
6 years ago

@contrapangloss

thanks :3 Art will have to wait til morning. 😛 i’m sometimes lazy with this stuff, but I’ll make fade poke me into doing it.

Erin Williams
Erin Williams
6 years ago

Now I have a delicate man brain? Nice. Keep the sexism coming. It makes all the stupid shit you said before null and void putanella.

dustedeste
dustedeste
6 years ago

Don’t you love how it’s mainly people who can’t yet buy beer in many places that are the ones frequently referring to others as “kid” in a condescending manner? You’re no one’s grandad, asshole. Just a sad, greasy sack of shit.

Marie
Marie
6 years ago

@erin

Now I have a delicate man brain? Nice. Keep the sexism coming. It makes all the stupid shit you said before null and void putanella.

MIsandry don’t real, Erin

Erin Williams
Erin Williams
6 years ago

Got you talking about Honey Badger, didn’t I? Predictable. Also your passive agressiveness is so sweet.

cupisnique
6 years ago

like seriously do you only watch terrible movies about highschool in the US?

I don’t know. Why don’t you ask the other Americans posting here?

First you assume I’m too young and then you assume I’m a stupid American.

lol

What-the-ever-loving-fuck

I didn’t assume you were “too young” what does that even mean? Is there such a thing as too young? You have a sense of entitlement and lack of awareness that suggests a lack of real world experience to me, but could also be because you’re a complete asshat so, yeah I don’t know how old you are.

Also, when did I say you were a stupid American? You just keep throwing around this mean girl click thing that is a very common trope in American movies about highschool. I have plenty of American friends that are very intelligent and I care about them, not that I need to justify this to you since I never implied they were lacking in intelligence, but fuck some mainstream movies that come out of America are dumb as hell. Just like Fox News, but somehow I don’t think that’s a representation of the entire fucking country.

kittehserf
6 years ago

Classic troll effort – thinking regulars who’ve been here years will leave the site because of him. Not happening, sonny. Remember those lightweights, those internet loser misogynists you tell us to dismiss? You’re one of them – a real lightweight, and nowhere near the trolls of yore, even if you are Pell. The glory days for that one are long gone, and you’ll never be an Owly or an Antz or a DKM.

katz
6 years ago

That is…even cooler than a lion/porcupine. Ancient art of mythological figures is the best art.

Allow me to bring the art conversation full circle with Leonora Carrington’s chimera.

dustedeste
dustedeste
6 years ago

Lol, Erin doesn’t understand contextual in-jokes or sexism; gotta love it.

Anyways, lovelies (this does not include you, Erin, in case you were confused; you’re far from lovely, and quite clearly the puzza di merda in the room here), I’m for bed; it’s past midnight and I’ve stuff to do.

Have fun with our favorite little asswipe until the banhammer descends 😛

katz
6 years ago

Fuck the ban hammer.

Filed under “Tempting fate.”

Erin Williams
Erin Williams
6 years ago

Why don’t you guys say all the mean shit you want to say to me? Have at it. Use all your most disgusting insults, I don’t mind. I sense a lot of pent up anger and nowhere to place it. Go. I’ve been enough of a dick to you all night.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

Dude, if you want a domme go hire one.

cupisnique
6 years ago

Why don’t you guys say all the mean shit you want to say to me? Have at it. Use all your most disgusting insults, I don’t mind. I sense a lot of pent up anger and nowhere to place it. Go. I’ve been enough of a dick to you all night.

that would imply we gave enough of a shit to bother

neuroticbeagle
6 years ago

Why don’t you guys say all the mean shit you want to say to me? Have at it. Use all your most disgusting insults, I don’t mind. I sense a lot of pent up anger and nowhere to place it. Go. I’ve been enough of a dick to you all night.

Is it just me or does anyone else get the feeling Erin doesn’t feel like paying for a domme?

Erin Williams
Erin Williams
6 years ago

Ma che e una puzza vechia putana?

neuroticbeagle
6 years ago

ninja’d

Marie
Marie
6 years ago

@dustedeste

Night night 😀

@Erin

Why don’t you guys say all the mean shit you want to say to me? Have at it. Use all your most disgusting insults, I don’t mind. I sense a lot of pent up anger and nowhere to place it. Go. I’ve been enough of a dick to you all night.

Nah, it’s got ot come naturally. plus I’m tired.

contrapangloss
6 years ago

Cassandrakitty: I’m only a C.

It’s sometimes annoying, because when I ask sales people for ones to minimize, they look at me like I’m an alien or something. I’ve even had one aghast sales-person blurt ‘why?’ before they got ahold of their tongue.

Obnoxious.

It’s kind of like they think everyone should want to look like a D or something.

katz
6 years ago

I more get the feeling that Erin was here attempting to get fuel for an angry blog post and is getting frustrated that someone wishing for her welfare is the worst he’s got so far.

cupisnique
6 years ago

Well, seeing as I stayed up WAY past my bedtime to catch up with this thread and Erin is getting progressively less interesting, I’m going to catch some shut-eye! Night all!

Erin Williams
Erin Williams
6 years ago

Is it just me or does anyone else get the feeling Erin doesn’t feel like paying for a domme?

Good start. I like all the horribleness beneath the surface.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

@ neuroticbeagle

Probably worried that he’ll get in trouble if he brings on into the dorms.

Erin Williams
Erin Williams
6 years ago

See ya whores. I have to go to bed as well.

Erin Williams
Erin Williams
6 years ago

Weak, Cass. Your hope you don’t get raped is hard to beat.

Marie
Marie
6 years ago

@cupisnique

night night 😀

@contrapangloss

Good news is it should be easier to find good bras in C’s, right? Or is that just where I shop.

kittehserf
6 years ago

Maybe mom and dad don’t pay him enough pocket money to afford a domme.