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Pickup artists argue that "Game" is the solution to Elliot Rodger-style rampages. Here’s why they’re wrong.

From Elliot Rodger's Google+ Profile
From Elliot Rodger’s Google+ Profile

Pickup artists, classy fellows that they are, are using Elliot Rodger’s killing rampage as a marketing ploy. In the comments to one of Rodger’s videos on YouTube, a company called Strategic Dating Coach offered their solution to prevent similar shootings in the future: send disturbed young men who can’t get dates to one of their coaching sessions!

THIS is why we do what we do. TO PREVENT THIS SHIT!!! Could couldn't experience it because he didn't learn to attract women. He should have gone to our website and got our personal dating coaching or purchased one of our products. IF ANYONE NEEDS HELP, CONTACT US! Don’t do anything stupid.

While this response to Rodger’s mass killing is uniquely crass, the argument that “Game saves lives” is hardly new. To PUAs like Heartiste and Roosh Valizadeh it’s practically an article of faith.

In the wake of George Sodini’s murderous shooting spree in a Pennsylvania gym in 2009, Heartiste (then known as Roissy) wrote

If Sodini had learned game he would have been able to find another woman and gotten laid after his ex dumped him. He wouldn’t have spent the next 20 years steeped in bile and weighed down by his Sisyphian blue balls, dreaming of vengeance. Game could have saved the lives of the women Sodini killed.

The fact that Sodini had in fact imbibed in the alleged wisdom of pickup artistry, going so far as attending a pricey seminar from old-school pickup guru R. Don Steele, a self-proclaimed expert on dating young women, didn’t lead any in the pickup community to reconsider this position.

Nor has it this time. It is clear that Elliot Rodger was steeped in “red pill” thinking about women. And while he wasn’t himself a PUA, he was certainly aware of the basics of “Game.” Indeed, he subscribed to a number of PUA channels on YouTube and was a regular commenter on PUAhate, a sleazy forum devoted to criticizing “game,” not because it is manipulative and misogynistic but because it doesn’t work.

On the Roosh V forum earlier today, Roosh acknowledged that Rodger knew at least a little about “red pill” ideology – noting that Rodger referred to himself as an”alpha” – but still went ahead and argued that Game was the solution to massacres like this:

He is self-delusional and massively entitled, but exposing him to game may have saved lives.

In a followup comment, Roosh expressed his concerns for the real victims of this tragedy – Pickup artists:

I’m trying to think of ways our enemies will come after us because of this, but if anything, we’re the solution to this sort of murder rampage. This is the society that progressives wanted, where women are fully able to choose the top 10% of alpha males while shaming masculinity, leaving beta males with modest resources in the dust. Of course they will simply push a ban on guns, but this wholly neglects the cause. Seven people died because this guy couldn’t get laid … .

Other commenters were quick to agree. According to someone known as Moma,

Roosh has a very valid point. This will continue to replay over and over again. As human beings, our wiring is very basic yet primal. …

When have you last heard of a porn star shooting up a place? How many have emptied their balls in a hot lizard and then felt the urge to go and smoke 50 strangers?

According to Samseau, the problem wasn’t that Rodger hadn’t heard the Game Gospel; the problem was that he had rejected his salvation:

He knew about Game. If he had an account on PUAHATE then he knew about game. He was just a denialist. There was no helping this dude.

Roosh seconded this bit of wisdom, seeing it as clear evidence that “game denialism kills.”

Michelin, for his part, hoped that PUAs would be able to use the massacre as a publicity bonanza and a great “told you so” to all the haters.

One should write a mainstream article about this case. The argument that game could have saved lives can be an eye-opener and a smash in the face to haters of game.

Tuthmosis, the man best known for a Return of Kings post on the “5 Reasons to Date a Girl With An Eating Disorder,” reported his joy that PUAhate was getting bad press:

Seeing your enemies fall is a delicious treat you only get to taste a few times in your life. I’m savoring this delicacy with a cup of freshly brewed coffee. It’s a shame real people had to lose their lives, but I can’t help but think this will discredit a horrible website, PUAHate–and a way of thinking–that could have harmed even more men and innocent people. Beta losers will never go away, but this will wake up a few men and, more importantly, scare others.

Zelcorpion blamed “girls” and MGTOWers for giving Rodgers bad dating advice:

I bet a few girls told him that he only needs to be himself, be nice, be a gentleman, have a nice car, looks etc. – only to realize that it mattered shit. Instead of learning from the PUA-community he chose to listen to PUAhaters and some of the anti-female comments of the MGTOWs who themselves are often refusing to accept Game or even basic concepts like Alpha/Beta. I think that problem will become way worse, since hypergamy and promiscuity will only increase and most men will be left in the sexual wasteland.

But it took a relative newcomer to the forum by the handle of thedavidgt to raise the obvious logical objection to the Game-for-everybody solution to incel rage:

If every sexless beta in the world took it upon himself to learn game, approach girls, lift, dress well etc, would it not simply feed women’s egos and entitlement? So instead of occasionally getting awkwardly hit on by skinny fat, poor-dressed chumps, the average 7 would then be approached several times a day by extremely high value men. We’ll have a society of men working to improve themselves for women who will get lazier and lazier while at the same time demanding more and more.

In fact, the “Game saves lives” mantra is dead wrong, but not for this reason. First of all, there is no clear evidence that “game,” per se, works, except insofar as it encourages men to pursue large numbers of women and numb them to the pain of rejection. It’s possible that a few of the conversational ploys invented by various PUAs may work better than having no conversational ploys at all. But there are no magic cheat codes to “getting with women.”

There is one more disturbing way in which “game” may increase “success” with women for unscrupulous men: many of the standard techniques of “game”– invading a woman’s personal space, touching her repeatedly, trying to “isolate” her from her friends – may serve as “tests” to find women who are less likely to resist violations of their boundaries. In this way, “game” may serve as a quite effective enabler of date rape. Indeed Roosh himself has admitted to raping a date too drunk to consent.

So how much of a solution is training a guy who is already filled with a toxic mixture of entitlement and self-loathing (yes, these strange bedfellows do often go together) in some techniques that might help him to tamp down his insecurities enough to manipulate some willing or not-so-willing women into bed?

You might have simply turned a mass killer into a serial rapist, or possibly a serial killer. Ted Bundy was quite the charmer. Somehow this didn’t make him a decent human being.

Even if “game” were the beneficient form of “self-improvement” that some of its proponents like to claim it is, teaching Rodger how to be a better dater would not make him a better person. Would having a girlfriend solve all his problems? Hardly. Relationships require patience and compromise and mutual respect, and Rodger seems to have had none of these qualities. Instead of directing his narcissistic rage at “girls” at large, he would likely have ended up abusing a string of girlfriends.

The problem wasn’t Rodger’s lack of “Game.” It was his lack of humanity.

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Lili Fugit
Lili Fugit
6 years ago

Just fuck all of these guys. I have nothing wittier than that for these creeps.

charlie
6 years ago

Great post.

Cinzia La Strega
6 years ago

It’s pretty evident within the first couple of minutes of Rodger’s video that he had a personality disorder. And however polished his “game,” it would not have hidden his grave lack of social skills for long. He was a nice looking kid with nice clothes and a nice car; I’ll bet a lot of girls gave him a second glance until he opened his mouth and scared them away.

kittehserf
6 years ago

David, exactly. “Don’t want to be a murderer? Become a rapist instead!” That’s PUA.

Marie
Marie
6 years ago

@cinciz la strega

It’s pretty evident within the first couple of minutes of Rodger’s video that he had a personality disorder.

Personality disorder? What the fuck?

kittehserf
6 years ago

Cinzia, no armchair diagnoses, please. We’ve been through this over and over. It doesn’t take anything more than toxic, entitled, hate-filled masculinity to do this, and that’s standard operational procedure in our societies.

Fade
6 years ago

.It’s pretty evident within the first couple of minutes of Rodger’s video that he had a personality disorder

i love the smell of bs internet diagnoses in response to horrible tragedies. not.

Marie
Marie
6 years ago

David, I want to say

I couldn’t read this article for my mental health, but thank you for keeping this site running, and showing how terrible these guys are.

I hope you’re feeling okay sorting through this stuff. Anyway good thoughts your way + gratitude.

And internet hugs for any other mammothers who want them. I have a large supply 🙂

hellkell
hellkell
6 years ago

I wish Roosh and all his dirtbag followers would just fall into a hole, never to be heard from again. It’s rare that I think some people have no redeeming features, but I can’t think of one with these assholes.

kittehserf
6 years ago

Hugs backatcha, Marie, Fade, David, and mammotheers in general.

(All hugs come with bonus kitty furs.)

Marie
Marie
6 years ago

@fade

i love the smell of bs internet diagnoses in response to horrible tragedies. not.

YUp. And I’ve only been on mammoth cuz I didn’t want to see everyone else throwing around the ableism shit :/

I mean, I don’t follow ableist shitheads on tumblr, but they still sometimes reblog the ableist shitheads being wrong, and I just don’t ahve the mental energy for that right now.

white knight
white knight
6 years ago

I’d argue that he was indeed a PUA or at least saw some worth in their ideology as around quarter of his youtube subscriptions are PUA channels.

hellkell
hellkell
6 years ago

Can we please not with the “personality disorders” or “disturbed” here? It’s being used to excuse/justify this entitled little shit’s behavior all over the internet, and it’s driving me up a wall.

kittehserf
6 years ago

I’m going offline for a bit – not because this is too much, just that my hip is all OW OW OW sitting on this chair.

Back later.

weirwoodtreehugger
6 years ago

Seeing your enemies fall is a delicious treat you only get to taste a few times in your life. I’m savoring this delicacy with a cup of freshly brewed coffee

This makes you happy?

What. The. Fuck.

No. Nope. Nononono!
http://imgur.com/M0ktc0q

Marie
Marie
6 years ago

@kittehs

bye. hope your hip feels better off the chair :3

seranvali
6 years ago

Cinzia, could we please not do the armchair diagnosis thing? We have no reason to believe this arsehole was mentally ill. Those of us who do have diagnosed mental illnesses actually don’t behave this way and don’t deserve to be lumped into boxes along with evil, entitled mass murderers.

hellkell
hellkell
6 years ago

WWTH: That guy sound even more ridiculously evil when you realize his “enemies” don’t even know he exists.

I love the nope llama.

KathleenB
KathleenB
6 years ago

Kittehs: Feel better! I’ve got a bum hip myself, and bad chairs are sometimes worse than standing.

Bee
Bee
6 years ago

Everything about this is gross and depressing.

How many have emptied their balls in a hot lizard

Or completely full of what the fuck? I mean, I really like lizards, but.

Cliff Pervocracy
Cliff Pervocracy
6 years ago

How many have emptied their balls in a hot lizard and then felt the urge to go and smoke 50 strangers?

“Lizard” aside, how many people have had sex and then committed a mass killing? …Actually quite a lot. Even among mass murderers who claim sexual frustration was their motive, still quite a lot of them had sex. They just adjusted their grievance from “not getting laid” to “not getting laid exactly as much as I want in exactly the ways I want.”

Which sort of proves why sex wouldn’t stop this sort of person.

hellkell
hellkell
6 years ago

David: Oh. So many assholes to keep track of.

wolf
wolf
6 years ago

As If The whole Shooting Thing wasn’t disturbing enough…..

“It’s a shame real people had to lose their lives, but I can’t help but think this will discredit a horrible website”

WTF! That’s what this person got out of something so terrible? It almost makes me scared to go outside knowing that there are people out there who can brush this off. all this talk about “the game” and “losers”. LIKE SOMETHING SO HORRIBLE IS JUST SOME “BAD END” TO A DATING GAME!

I’m sorry but after the earlier post I had to de lurk if only to say this.

Harmonia Lalonde
Harmonia Lalonde
6 years ago

Do these people have no shame? They’re gonna trot out their tired horseshit, now of all times? This whole situation makes me physically ill.

hannasoumaki
hannasoumaki
6 years ago

Even if this boy was mentally ill. it shouldn’t stop anyone from reprimanding this disgusting attitude that women just owe men sex, affection, etc. or else we’re frigid bitches that, haha, no one else would touch so you might as well appreciate our advances now. hope everyone who has dealt with possessive inconsiderate individuals like him feel safe and loved now; going in a killing frenzy shouldnt be the only way we can recognize this misogyny is intolerable.

Alice Sanguinaria
6 years ago

Fuck ableism, fuck ableism, fuck ableism.

Also, yes, having sex is NOT a magical cure to solve a person’s entitlement problem. It’s not.

hannasoumaki
hannasoumaki
6 years ago

But yes, automatically assuming he is mentally ill w/o knowing the whole story contributes to the stigma ppl w/ mental illness already get, I didn’t mean to derail from that/

Lee
Lee
6 years ago

Yeah, the mental illness comments are completely unwarranted. I just read his manifesto on the LA Times’ sites, and if anything, he was really, really pissed off…which is an emotion, not a mental illness. (He may have been pissed off in a way that’s dangerous, but that still doesn’t warrant the armchair diagnoses.)

Did I mention that I flunked out of college largely because of fear of ableist crap like that, and I worried I’d be treated as either an idiot or a security risk because of it and refused to seek help? Yeah. 😛

dustedeste
dustedeste
6 years ago

Christ on a cracker, people, stop fucking speculating about whether or not the fucking asshole was fucking mentally ill. IT IS FUCKING IRRELEVANT; BEING MENTALLY ILL DOES NOT EQUATE WITH BEING A MURDERING FUCKING ASSHOLE, AND BEING NEUROTYPICAL DOES NOT MEAN BEING A MURDERING FUCKING ASSHOLE IS ANY LESS FUCKING LIKELY.

I just can’t with this right now.

I’m off before my inevitable meltdown. I’ll be on Tumblr, mostly just looking at reblogs of LOTR gifsets or something, iunno. Or maybe in the pie thread; pie is nice.

Just saying...
Just saying...
6 years ago

The funny thing, in a “can’t see the Amazon rain forest from the canopy” sorta way, is that Elliot Rodgers sounds like the typical DooshV forum follower. No job, no education, ethnic, and really nothing to offer any decent woman.

A forum full of guys who can’t get laid to save theirs lives trying to distance itself from one of their own.

If DooshV had a younger brother…

Bee
Bee
6 years ago

Crap. From David’s link above, some commenter called satanova77:

Another reason I love the term is I used to shoot lizards with a BB gun as a 10 year old…now i shoot them with a bazooka emitting white scud missiles that temporarily blinds them….and then they run around looking for a towel or kleenex just like the wounded lizards back in the day falling off the walls and running around with their tails cut off….

Ha ha ha, because he shoots lizards and he wishes they were women, ha ha ha ha.

Robert
Robert
6 years ago

The idea that sometimes, people who can choose their actions consciously choose to do something horrible without being mentally ill is disturbing or threatening to some people.

But it’s true. This young man did something evil because he wanted to. If that troubles you, well, it should. But don’t try to other him. He was not a monster or an illness, he was a human being.

Alice Sanguinaria
6 years ago

dustedeste – If you’re still around, here’s a cute video of animated cats in a parade. We’re doing a cute day in AMR to brain bleach ourselves, and this was one of the videos linked. :3

Marie
Marie
6 years ago

@Lee

.Did I mention that I flunked out of college largely because of fear of ableist crap like that, and I worried I’d be treated as either an idiot or a security risk because of it and refused to seek help? Yeah. 😛

That sucks 🙁

Cliff Pervocracy
Cliff Pervocracy
6 years ago

Bee – Yeek. When I was that age I had lizards in my yard too… and I caught them and fed them and gave them names.

(I mean, not that what someone does at 10 determines the rest of their life or whatever. But the whole “the more damage I inflict, the more power I have” attitude is really disturbing even when it’s just about actual lizards.)

…Also I just realized that the “bazooka emitting white scud missiles” is his penis and that he thinks that women wanting to clean themselves after sex means that he has Won The Sex by making them humiliatingly dirty.

…I really wish I hadn’t figured that out.

weirwoodtreehugger
6 years ago

No job, no education, ethnic, and really nothing to offer any decent woman.

Ethnic? Are you fucking kidding? Go away.

Marie
Marie
6 years ago

@weirdwoodtreehugger

somehow missed that on the first readthrough. :/

Alice Sanguinaria
6 years ago

The funny thing, in a “can’t see the Amazon rain forest from the canopy” sorta way, is that Elliot Rodgers sounds like the typical DooshV forum follower. No job, no education, ethnic, and really nothing to offer any decent woman.

I apologize for being crass, but fuck that shit.

Lee
Lee
6 years ago

That sucks 🙁

Yeah. It’s actually one of my great regrets. I eventually did OK (I taught myself how to program by reading a lot of FreeBSD source code), but I still feel like I missed out on something important.

tealily
tealily
6 years ago

I hope they make public what they find on his computer. His actions may be extreme, but I don’t think most people are aware just how many men share his misogynistic viewpoints and sense of entitlement as to what women “owe” men, along with how many sites are dedicated to that mindset.

Marie
Marie
6 years ago

@Ellie

please tell me the link ss not serious? Pretty please?

Ellie
6 years ago

Oh it’s serious alright

And with that said, fuck earth I’m moving to saturn.

Ken L.
Ken L.
6 years ago

@tealily

I hope your right. but at the same time look at how many people know about White supremacist sites and they still exist. exposure does nothing, to these type of people. I don’t know if anything can be done that will really effect change on the issue.

kittehserf
6 years ago

A perfect example of how “if he’d had sex this wouldn’t have happened” shit is shit: GGG. Still calls himself incel, still poses a threat, even though he’s anything but virgin.

Also, fuck that for all the people in the world who’d like to have sex or romance and don’t, but don’t go around killing people or abusing them in any other way.

Marie
Marie
6 years ago

@Ellie

Oh it’s serious alright

Well damn.

Alice Sanguinaria
6 years ago

Ellie – OH WHAT THE FLYING FUCK IS WRONG WITH PEOPLE

marinerachel
marinerachel
6 years ago

At least they recognise killing a bunch of people and yourself as stupid. That morsel is valuable, at least.

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