Pickup artists, classy fellows that they are, are using Elliot Rodger’s killing rampage as a marketing ploy. In the comments to one of Rodger’s videos on YouTube, a company called Strategic Dating Coach offered their solution to prevent similar shootings in the future: send disturbed young men who can’t get dates to one of their coaching sessions!
While this response to Rodger’s mass killing is uniquely crass, the argument that “Game saves lives” is hardly new. To PUAs like Heartiste and Roosh Valizadeh it’s practically an article of faith.
In the wake of George Sodini’s murderous shooting spree in a Pennsylvania gym in 2009, Heartiste (then known as Roissy) wrote
If Sodini had learned game he would have been able to find another woman and gotten laid after his ex dumped him. He wouldn’t have spent the next 20 years steeped in bile and weighed down by his Sisyphian blue balls, dreaming of vengeance. Game could have saved the lives of the women Sodini killed.
The fact that Sodini had in fact imbibed in the alleged wisdom of pickup artistry, going so far as attending a pricey seminar from old-school pickup guru R. Don Steele, a self-proclaimed expert on dating young women, didn’t lead any in the pickup community to reconsider this position.
Nor has it this time. It is clear that Elliot Rodger was steeped in “red pill” thinking about women. And while he wasn’t himself a PUA, he was certainly aware of the basics of “Game.” Indeed, he subscribed to a number of PUA channels on YouTube and was a regular commenter on PUAhate, a sleazy forum devoted to criticizing “game,” not because it is manipulative and misogynistic but because it doesn’t work.
On the Roosh V forum earlier today, Roosh acknowledged that Rodger knew at least a little about “red pill” ideology – noting that Rodger referred to himself as an”alpha” – but still went ahead and argued that Game was the solution to massacres like this:
He is self-delusional and massively entitled, but exposing him to game may have saved lives.
In a followup comment, Roosh expressed his concerns for the real victims of this tragedy – Pickup artists:
I’m trying to think of ways our enemies will come after us because of this, but if anything, we’re the solution to this sort of murder rampage. This is the society that progressives wanted, where women are fully able to choose the top 10% of alpha males while shaming masculinity, leaving beta males with modest resources in the dust. Of course they will simply push a ban on guns, but this wholly neglects the cause. Seven people died because this guy couldn’t get laid … .
Other commenters were quick to agree. According to someone known as Moma,
Roosh has a very valid point. This will continue to replay over and over again. As human beings, our wiring is very basic yet primal. …
When have you last heard of a porn star shooting up a place? How many have emptied their balls in a hot lizard and then felt the urge to go and smoke 50 strangers?
According to Samseau, the problem wasn’t that Rodger hadn’t heard the Game Gospel; the problem was that he had rejected his salvation:
He knew about Game. If he had an account on PUAHATE then he knew about game. He was just a denialist. There was no helping this dude.
Roosh seconded this bit of wisdom, seeing it as clear evidence that “game denialism kills.”
Michelin, for his part, hoped that PUAs would be able to use the massacre as a publicity bonanza and a great “told you so” to all the haters.
One should write a mainstream article about this case. The argument that game could have saved lives can be an eye-opener and a smash in the face to haters of game.
Tuthmosis, the man best known for a Return of Kings post on the “5 Reasons to Date a Girl With An Eating Disorder,” reported his joy that PUAhate was getting bad press:
Seeing your enemies fall is a delicious treat you only get to taste a few times in your life. I’m savoring this delicacy with a cup of freshly brewed coffee. It’s a shame real people had to lose their lives, but I can’t help but think this will discredit a horrible website, PUAHate–and a way of thinking–that could have harmed even more men and innocent people. Beta losers will never go away, but this will wake up a few men and, more importantly, scare others.
Zelcorpion blamed “girls” and MGTOWers for giving Rodgers bad dating advice:
I bet a few girls told him that he only needs to be himself, be nice, be a gentleman, have a nice car, looks etc. – only to realize that it mattered shit. Instead of learning from the PUA-community he chose to listen to PUAhaters and some of the anti-female comments of the MGTOWs who themselves are often refusing to accept Game or even basic concepts like Alpha/Beta. I think that problem will become way worse, since hypergamy and promiscuity will only increase and most men will be left in the sexual wasteland.
But it took a relative newcomer to the forum by the handle of thedavidgt to raise the obvious logical objection to the Game-for-everybody solution to incel rage:
If every sexless beta in the world took it upon himself to learn game, approach girls, lift, dress well etc, would it not simply feed women’s egos and entitlement? So instead of occasionally getting awkwardly hit on by skinny fat, poor-dressed chumps, the average 7 would then be approached several times a day by extremely high value men. We’ll have a society of men working to improve themselves for women who will get lazier and lazier while at the same time demanding more and more.
In fact, the “Game saves lives” mantra is dead wrong, but not for this reason. First of all, there is no clear evidence that “game,” per se, works, except insofar as it encourages men to pursue large numbers of women and numb them to the pain of rejection. It’s possible that a few of the conversational ploys invented by various PUAs may work better than having no conversational ploys at all. But there are no magic cheat codes to “getting with women.”
There is one more disturbing way in which “game” may increase “success” with women for unscrupulous men: many of the standard techniques of “game”– invading a woman’s personal space, touching her repeatedly, trying to “isolate” her from her friends – may serve as “tests” to find women who are less likely to resist violations of their boundaries. In this way, “game” may serve as a quite effective enabler of date rape. Indeed Roosh himself has admitted to raping a date too drunk to consent.
So how much of a solution is training a guy who is already filled with a toxic mixture of entitlement and self-loathing (yes, these strange bedfellows do often go together) in some techniques that might help him to tamp down his insecurities enough to manipulate some willing or not-so-willing women into bed?
You might have simply turned a mass killer into a serial rapist, or possibly a serial killer. Ted Bundy was quite the charmer. Somehow this didn’t make him a decent human being.
Even if “game” were the beneficient form of “self-improvement” that some of its proponents like to claim it is, teaching Rodger how to be a better dater would not make him a better person. Would having a girlfriend solve all his problems? Hardly. Relationships require patience and compromise and mutual respect, and Rodger seems to have had none of these qualities. Instead of directing his narcissistic rage at “girls” at large, he would likely have ended up abusing a string of girlfriends.
The problem wasn’t Rodger’s lack of “Game.” It was his lack of humanity.
Yes, yes, and you invented the UNIX, and you’re a doctor, and invented colour photography, and know all about female orgasms.
Look, Erin, if you are here in good faith, chill.
Calling names does not friends make. Yes, not all men are evil. We know. We knew that, already. It wasn’t an awesome revelation. Yes, living in fear, and fearing for your children eats dead mice.
However, people here are allowed to try and isolate ourselves from risk and call out behavior that might indicate some individuals as more of a threat than others.
If we want to never swim in the ocean in order to never get eaten by a shark (which is a really, really tiny risk) we are allowed to stay out of the water. No one is stupid for avoiding danger.
Men are more risky than swimming in the ocean. Most men are amazing, totally awesome, and just fine, boundary respecting gentlemen. Some aren’t. People don’t come with name badges with complementary ‘I’d like to harm you!’ or ‘I’m a really good person’ stickers.
I’d definitely avoid being in an alley with Roosh or his ilk. I’d like their brand of we to be nice and visible, so that more people learn to avoid them. I’d like society to start condemning their rhetoric. I’d like for more comment pages to not default to ‘Not all men are like that’, ‘He was obviously insane’, or ‘those B* got what was coming to them’.
So please, if you were in good faith, sit back and chill. Give it a day. Think about why we’d react so negatively.
Also, work on that short fuse. Tone doesn’t carry well over the web, and from experience on the blog, I’m absolutely sure Cassandrakitty did NOT wish you would be assaulted. I’m pretty sure if you had responded directly to that, instead of jumping to sexist slurs, you’d have even gotten support.
None of us have ever not stepped in it, once. When we say something nasty then we do need to get called out.
This page, though, is a very sore wound. Many, like Cloudiah, have a personal stake in what happened. We were worried about friends and relatives, or even just empathizing with victims, when you jumped in.
There’s a time and a place to remind us that there are way more legit nice guys. This post was a poor choice. Some reacted poorly. You reacted even worse.
So, please, chill. Put away the slurs and help us draw attack chickens with helmets. Or, go back and lurk, because David does do good work.
If you aren’t in good faith, just go already.
Stevie, if you’re still around, all the hugs you’d like are yours!
All, much sorry for dropping another teal-deer.
So, should we talk about bras, pubic area shaving approaches, or something else?
Recipes? We haven’t had a recipe thread in a while.
Yes, David, this one’s well and truly established its troll credentials by now.
Suit yourself, Kitteh. I appologize for calling you guys whores. I was genuinely pissed that Cassandra would tell my pretend woman that she hoped she didn’t get raped. That wasn’t cool and you’ll have to take that up with her.
@contrapangloss
Nothing wrong with your teal deer, but I’m guessing you haven’t caught up to where Erin admitted they were a dude? Who’s also number one ally, btw.
@erin
Dude have you gotten yet that cassandra wasn’t actually being sarcastic. She was being sincere.
also, not buying your apology.
@erin
also, why the hell would you even pretend to be a woman? What were you trying to accomplish?
your pretend woman
fffs why were you here dishonestly anyway?
cassandrakitty, you still online? Now might be the time for the bra question you were saving for the next troll invasion.
Sorry for spamming, but:
@Erin
Should I change your statue to say ‘number 1 ally’ now?
@Marie
I honestly thought I had apologized for to you for real not like my first snarky one, I went back and looked at the thread and to my utter embarrassment you were right. so first I want to make it clear I now understand better that I was an ableist or using ablism or got close to ablism, either way there was a ablist thing on my part. For that I am sorry. two, this is in no way meant to get you to like me or anything like that. Other then this post i intended to not engage with you on this site. so again my apologizes.
Which is a thing that never happened. But in any case, telling someone they hope they never get raped is actually kind of much better than calling people b*tches, wh*res, and pr*cks.
Again, I’m sorry David, but if Erin would stop trolling I promise I would stop commenting on his trolling.
Women’s attire discussions! Go go go!
TMI-ish:
Once I get to my friend’s place, I’ll try to ship stuff to a P.O. box so I can finally start trying out bras and whatnot. I’m so fucking tired of boxer briefs… X_X
Bats can be cute, too. No, really.
I’m trying real hard to lay off, but what was Erin pretending to be a woman in the first place?
Sorry, it’s just that this is just CLASSIC abuser justification and I wanted to preserve it.
@sparky
bats are always cute! 😀
yup.
Contrapangloss,, the female identity thing was because I was just wanted to post a few things and fuck off. The thing with Stevie was legitimate, though. The fact that she was having a hard time over the thought that most men out there think like Roosh broke my heart. All I wanted to do was assure her that most guys aren’t indeed like that. Sure there are misogynists by the cart full, but most aren’t as horrible as Roosh. Not by a fucking long shot.
bat that looks like a bumble bee 😀
You pretended to be a woman.
Why?
You don’t get why it’s weird to be all, “I’m on your side — whores.” Why would you do this?
I apologize for breaking your jaw, I was genuinely pissed. I am pretty sure that Elliot Rodger was genuinely pissed. I am pretty sure Marc Lepine was genuinely pissed. I am sure that George Sodini was genuinely pissed.
Fuck that, and fuck you. I am retiring from the Internet from the evening, but unlike “Erin” I can actually stick the flounce.
@erin
but why say you were a woman to post those things?
@sparky,
Bats are adorable, and megabats are the best! I want one. lol
I found another cute bat.
Maybe cute bats will make it stop.
@cloudiah
::offers internet hugs::
Good night.