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Pickup artists argue that "Game" is the solution to Elliot Rodger-style rampages. Here's why they're wrong.

From Elliot Rodger's Google+ Profile
From Elliot Rodger’s Google+ Profile

Pickup artists, classy fellows that they are, are using Elliot Rodger’s killing rampage as a marketing ploy. In the comments to one of Rodger’s videos on YouTube, a company called Strategic Dating Coach offered their solution to prevent similar shootings in the future: send disturbed young men who can’t get dates to one of their coaching sessions!

THIS is why we do what we do. TO PREVENT THIS SHIT!!! Could couldn't experience it because he didn't learn to attract women. He should have gone to our website and got our personal dating coaching or purchased one of our products. IF ANYONE NEEDS HELP, CONTACT US! Don’t do anything stupid.

While this response to Rodger’s mass killing is uniquely crass, the argument that “Game saves lives” is hardly new. To PUAs like Heartiste and Roosh Valizadeh it’s practically an article of faith.

In the wake of George Sodini’s murderous shooting spree in a Pennsylvania gym in 2009, Heartiste (then known as Roissy) wrote

If Sodini had learned game he would have been able to find another woman and gotten laid after his ex dumped him. He wouldn’t have spent the next 20 years steeped in bile and weighed down by his Sisyphian blue balls, dreaming of vengeance. Game could have saved the lives of the women Sodini killed.

The fact that Sodini had in fact imbibed in the alleged wisdom of pickup artistry, going so far as attending a pricey seminar from old-school pickup guru R. Don Steele, a self-proclaimed expert on dating young women, didn’t lead any in the pickup community to reconsider this position.

Nor has it this time. It is clear that Elliot Rodger was steeped in “red pill” thinking about women. And while he wasn’t himself a PUA, he was certainly aware of the basics of “Game.” Indeed, he subscribed to a number of PUA channels on YouTube and was a regular commenter on PUAhate, a sleazy forum devoted to criticizing “game,” not because it is manipulative and misogynistic but because it doesn’t work.

On the Roosh V forum earlier today, Roosh acknowledged that Rodger knew at least a little about “red pill” ideology – noting that Rodger referred to himself as an”alpha” – but still went ahead and argued that Game was the solution to massacres like this:

He is self-delusional and massively entitled, but exposing him to game may have saved lives.

In a followup comment, Roosh expressed his concerns for the real victims of this tragedy – Pickup artists:

I’m trying to think of ways our enemies will come after us because of this, but if anything, we’re the solution to this sort of murder rampage. This is the society that progressives wanted, where women are fully able to choose the top 10% of alpha males while shaming masculinity, leaving beta males with modest resources in the dust. Of course they will simply push a ban on guns, but this wholly neglects the cause. Seven people died because this guy couldn’t get laid … .

Other commenters were quick to agree. According to someone known as Moma,

Roosh has a very valid point. This will continue to replay over and over again. As human beings, our wiring is very basic yet primal. …

When have you last heard of a porn star shooting up a place? How many have emptied their balls in a hot lizard and then felt the urge to go and smoke 50 strangers?

According to Samseau, the problem wasn’t that Rodger hadn’t heard the Game Gospel; the problem was that he had rejected his salvation:

He knew about Game. If he had an account on PUAHATE then he knew about game. He was just a denialist. There was no helping this dude.

Roosh seconded this bit of wisdom, seeing it as clear evidence that “game denialism kills.”

Michelin, for his part, hoped that PUAs would be able to use the massacre as a publicity bonanza and a great “told you so” to all the haters.

One should write a mainstream article about this case. The argument that game could have saved lives can be an eye-opener and a smash in the face to haters of game.

Tuthmosis, the man best known for a Return of Kings post on the “5 Reasons to Date a Girl With An Eating Disorder,” reported his joy that PUAhate was getting bad press:

Seeing your enemies fall is a delicious treat you only get to taste a few times in your life. I’m savoring this delicacy with a cup of freshly brewed coffee. It’s a shame real people had to lose their lives, but I can’t help but think this will discredit a horrible website, PUAHate–and a way of thinking–that could have harmed even more men and innocent people. Beta losers will never go away, but this will wake up a few men and, more importantly, scare others.

Zelcorpion blamed “girls” and MGTOWers for giving Rodgers bad dating advice:

I bet a few girls told him that he only needs to be himself, be nice, be a gentleman, have a nice car, looks etc. – only to realize that it mattered shit. Instead of learning from the PUA-community he chose to listen to PUAhaters and some of the anti-female comments of the MGTOWs who themselves are often refusing to accept Game or even basic concepts like Alpha/Beta. I think that problem will become way worse, since hypergamy and promiscuity will only increase and most men will be left in the sexual wasteland.

But it took a relative newcomer to the forum by the handle of thedavidgt to raise the obvious logical objection to the Game-for-everybody solution to incel rage:

If every sexless beta in the world took it upon himself to learn game, approach girls, lift, dress well etc, would it not simply feed women’s egos and entitlement? So instead of occasionally getting awkwardly hit on by skinny fat, poor-dressed chumps, the average 7 would then be approached several times a day by extremely high value men. We’ll have a society of men working to improve themselves for women who will get lazier and lazier while at the same time demanding more and more.

In fact, the “Game saves lives” mantra is dead wrong, but not for this reason. First of all, there is no clear evidence that “game,” per se, works, except insofar as it encourages men to pursue large numbers of women and numb them to the pain of rejection. It’s possible that a few of the conversational ploys invented by various PUAs may work better than having no conversational ploys at all. But there are no magic cheat codes to “getting with women.”

There is one more disturbing way in which “game” may increase “success” with women for unscrupulous men: many of the standard techniques of “game”– invading a woman’s personal space, touching her repeatedly, trying to “isolate” her from her friends – may serve as “tests” to find women who are less likely to resist violations of their boundaries. In this way, “game” may serve as a quite effective enabler of date rape. Indeed Roosh himself has admitted to raping a date too drunk to consent.

So how much of a solution is training a guy who is already filled with a toxic mixture of entitlement and self-loathing (yes, these strange bedfellows do often go together) in some techniques that might help him to tamp down his insecurities enough to manipulate some willing or not-so-willing women into bed?

You might have simply turned a mass killer into a serial rapist, or possibly a serial killer. Ted Bundy was quite the charmer. Somehow this didn’t make him a decent human being.

Even if “game” were the beneficient form of “self-improvement” that some of its proponents like to claim it is, teaching Rodger how to be a better dater would not make him a better person. Would having a girlfriend solve all his problems? Hardly. Relationships require patience and compromise and mutual respect, and Rodger seems to have had none of these qualities. Instead of directing his narcissistic rage at “girls” at large, he would likely have ended up abusing a string of girlfriends.

The problem wasn’t Rodger’s lack of “Game.” It was his lack of humanity.

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Marie
Marie
6 years ago

@erin

you flounced, and posted again right fter you flounced.

for the seventh time, IIRC

contrapangloss
6 years ago

Yep, Kittehs.

Sports bras tend to be super comfy, but not very jiggle controlling.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

@ contrapangloss

So, this is my new favorite bra. You can maybe see even in the pics how it holds the breasts kind of close to the body and pulls all the tissue out from under the arms? No idea if it would work for what you want it for, and it’s not a minimizer, but I love it. I get no bounce at all walking around in it and I’m a G cup.

http://www.figleaves.com/us/product/CL-5851/Cleo-by-Panache-Lucy-Balconette-Bra/?size=&colour=Blues&c=ppc&src=GGUS&gclid=CKjQ6dDIy74CFTAV7AodCi4A7Q&noc=1

Erin Williams
Erin Williams
6 years ago

You’re a dirty whore Kett

Erin Williams
Erin Williams
6 years ago

Night night

Marie
Marie
6 years ago

and I’ve finally got to sleep. Night guys.

Erin Williams
Erin Williams
6 years ago

Fuck Dave Futrelle and his band of ugly hags. PUA Hate Lives.

kittehserf
6 years ago

Good news is it should be easier to find good bras in C’s, right? Or is that just where I shop.

It’s not just where you shop, Marie. It’s much the same as the limited clothing sizes available generally, I suspect. Getting the same style clothing that’s in 6-14 (I think Australian 14 is US 10) in a 16 (US 12) is difficult; anything over that, forget it.

Erin Williams
Erin Williams
6 years ago

Fuck off, Marie. I hope you toss and turn all night.

kittehserf
6 years ago

That’s a pretty bra, cassandra!

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

BTW, for all the non-trolls, I wasn’t even thinking of rape when I made the comment that dudebro is trying to use as an excuse for his meltdown. Given what just happened my greatest worry with a lot of the PUA guys who have that sort of simmering anger towards women thing going on is actually that they might kill someone, and I don’t think Stevie is wrong to be worried about that. Obviously most men are decent people, and even most PUAs are probably capable of keeping their anger towards women in check, but I’d really rather nobody walk around assuming that they were all harmless and that if you meet a man matching that description he’s all bark and no bite, because unfortunately, as we’ve just seen, that’s not true. Some of those people are very dangerous, and forewarned is forearmed.

contrapangloss
6 years ago

Sleep well, Marie and all! Have wonderful dreams of attack chickens, defending women everywhere from everything!

Thanks for the advice, Cassandrakitty! I jotted down notes for the dealing with in the a.m.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

BTW, I really do think David should ban this guy. He seems to be from PUAHate, and that forum is pretty much the internet equivalent of Ebola.

katz
6 years ago

Who the fuck is Kett?

contrapangloss
6 years ago

I dunno. Kett, whoever you are, I’m sure you’re okay.

kittehserf
6 years ago

I didn’t read your comment as having anything to do with rape, fersure. Stevie expressed fear for her daughter’s safety, Erin came along with that NAMALT nonsense, and how dudes are niiice, and we don’t live in the world we actually do live in – and you said, iirc, you hoped *her* attitude (I’d say complacency but I know that’s not quite the word) didn’t bite her – ie. lead her to assume a greater level of safety than exists.

Nothing about rape at all, let alone dudebro’s assumptions that it was really a sneaky way of saying you hoped *she* did get raped.

Says something about dudebro’s mindset, though.

Back on the bras, this Marlies Dekkers is my fanciest and most flattering. It’s comfortable, too, though it’s for cold weather only. Unfortunately her stuff is all hidjus expensive, so I won’t be buying any more.

wewereemergencies
wewereemergencies
6 years ago

@katz awesome painting! I’ve saved it to look at again!

And I hope everyone has a good night (except Erin. I hope birds poop on him whenever he goes outside) That’s the most hate you’ll get out of me pal. I’m just vaguely amused.

kittehserf
6 years ago

I wondered if Kett was bozo’s attempt at my nym.

Dammit, if I’m a whore, where’s my money????

Oh, I sent the Dark Lord another email before. Hopefully he’ll see it when he gets up.

kittehserf
6 years ago

Yay, David, thank you!

Erin is still standing in the punch bowl yelling.

That’s a really funny image. 😀

neuroticbeagle
6 years ago

Maybe Maddie is your pimp and she’s getting paid with catnip?

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

@ Kittehs

Also classic troll tactic, trying to get the group to fight among ourselves so that he can sit back and watch with popcorn. Shame he didn’t realize how many of the people here have enough troll-busting experience to see exactly what he was trying to do.

On bras, has anyone here tried any of the Polish brands like Ewa Michalak? I kind of want to but shipping would be a huge pain.

kittehserf
6 years ago

Say … are female chickens WHORES like female penguins?

Does this mean the attack chickens need to wear Spanx?

contrapangloss
6 years ago

The day they invent a bra that keeps things still when I’m crawling around, hanging out a window, and throwing ladders around while still looking at least vaguely pretty will be a day of great rejoicing.

For reals.

katz
6 years ago

I can’t wait to see Marie’s sculpture picture. It’s going to be epic.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

RE Kett, when Kittehs and I get together we form KettVoltron? That’s all I got, sorry.

wewereemergencies
wewereemergencies
6 years ago

What? We had punch? And Erin ruined it? Damnit trolls why do you have to ruin the punch?

Grocery shopping at 2am sounds like an adventure. I’m sorry Erin ruined your post-adventure high David.

kittehserf
6 years ago

Maybe Maddie is your pimp and she’s getting paid with catnip?

Well, she does wear a big fur coat … and I do support her lazy lifestyle …

::squints suspiciously at snoring cat::

contrapangloss
6 years ago

David, can I name your banhammer? It is a magnificent weapon, and deserves a name adequate for its might.

(I might be feeling a tad silly)

kittehserf
6 years ago

That sounds a great idea (if David likes it, obvs). Like Scalzi’s Mallet of Loving Correction.

katz
6 years ago

David, can I name your banhammer?

I’m trying to think of a Mjolnir pun and it’s not coming.

neuroticbeagle
6 years ago

Mammoth Mallet?

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

Seriously though, pretty sure I know what happened now. Someone must have linked this on PUAHate, or dude found it somehow, and decided that this place would be fertile trolling grounds. Those guys make /b look like Shakesville, so that pretty much explains Erin.

kittehserf
6 years ago

Say, contrapangloss, have you seen this brand? They talk about being larger cup sizes but do have C cups – they’re sports bras that are pretty.

http://sturdygirlsports.com/c/sports-bras

kittehserf
6 years ago

OMG I love the look on green-hatted kitty’s face. Second kitty is more like “You have to sleep sometime, human.”

Look, look! The Mallet Mammoth is a thing!

neuroticbeagle
6 years ago

@kittehs

That is an awesome mallet wielding mammoth

contrapangloss
6 years ago

Thanks kittehs! They look somewhat promising!

::runs off to jot down notes for hunting::

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

The gold standard of no-movement sports bras is this one, but it’s definitely not what I’d call pretty.

http://www.titlenine.com/product/313801.do?sli=X-Small_Black_0&kwd=Sports+Bra#.U4RGnmxOVok

kittehserf
6 years ago

Not pretty, but the black version looks quite smart.

I love their blurb for it – the Last Resort aka Full Metal Jacket. 😀

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

It does kind of look like it was designed by a civil engineer rather than a clothing company, but it gets the job done.

contrapangloss
6 years ago

I should also get to bed, while the bed getting is good!

Thanks for being cool people, all. David, you rock. This blog is much appreciated. Good night, you wonderful people!

Well, except Erin. Erin, you are uncool. No good feelings for you, Sir! Have a mediocre, middling-average night.

kittehserf
6 years ago

Niters, contrapangloss!

kittehserf
6 years ago

Okay, I’m off to eat PIE and watch telly. Niters, splendid people!

titianblue
titianblue
6 years ago

I missed it! I missed the whole flaming troll that was Erin! Damn you, time zones!

Good call, Mammotheers, on picking up the trolling from the get-go.

And Stevie,1000 comments too late, but I’m in the UK, too. *waves happily at fellow Brit*

Kim
Kim
6 years ago

phew.. finally caught up on this whole thread. Talk about a rollercoaster. Haven’t had one like this in ages. So good work being a chew toy Erin, since you’re not much good for anything else.

I just wanted to mention a comment from Sparky way back on page 12. A really awesome takedown of why Erin’s opening salvo was so inappropriate even if he’d been here in good faith.

And re bats: where my parents live is close to a massive flying fox colony. Every evening thousands of them stream across the sky. Not in a big mass though, because bats are not very organised. But a steady stream for ages. It looks pretty cool. Fortunately they are far enough away to not get the smell.

Are bats common where you are North American/European people?

kittehserf
6 years ago

Kim, thank you for linking to that – I meant to tell Sparky she’d won the thread with that comment, but forgot in the rapid-fire troll-baiting. This must be the longest thread we’ve had in ages – 1648 comments if WordPress doesn’t eat this one.

Speaking of flounces, I finished the flounce on my knitting, yay!

pecunium
6 years ago

Erin:. Seriously, find where the fuck I even implied that Roosh should be given a pass.

Right here: No, she was terrified at the thought of her daughter living in a world where a great deal of men think like Roosh. I merely told her that Roosh and his ilk represent a minority of men and to not worry so much..

Of course there’s also all the stuff about how Roosh can’t possibly be a rapist (no matter what he claims).

So… why is it that Roosh, who tells people he did rape someone, and advocates the same is “no big deal”, but I’m evil for having admitted to having bad thoughts?

Could it be I’m handing you your ass, and Roosh doesn’t care about you (which, given that you think his saying he’s a rapist is nothing to worry about, I can understand… you aren’t a threat to him at all).

kittehserf
6 years ago

Pecunium – how far down the thread are you? I don’t know if you want to answer the probably-lurking troll, but David did ban him.

Shiraz
Shiraz
6 years ago

Wow. Just had my first cup of coffee. So “Erin” basically stuck around to abuse and harass everyone. He basically threatened that he wasn’t going away.

Hey, misogynistic asshole, thanks for giving us your little show. It’s all on record now and we can refer to it when someone questions the need for awareness. Also, my original accusation — that you’re a hinky individual who doesn’t want women to be empowered, still stands. Though, Cassandra could be right, maybe you’re just too cheap to pay a domme.

The gendered slurs that just came shooting out of your mouth every time you got angry, made me feel like I was walking past an unruly frat house. Or a bar with a bunch of drunk assholes hanging outside. If this were meatspace, I would have brandished the pepper spray by now. But hey, the display of good old fashioned sexism was something else. What were your special word, “Whores,” “Bitches,” you called another woman here a dumb “tit,” you kept calling us clucking chickens. Nice job. Seriously.
You pushed boundries and warned us that you weren’t going away, too. Bonus.

You’re an excuse for people to back up We Hunted the Mammoth and feminism in general. You know how your original bullshit was to set women’s minds at ease about potential violence in meatspace? Well, you blew that, bubba.