You know, maybe I’ve been unfair to these manosphere fellows. I’m always saying that they hate women. But what if they don’t really hate women? Like hate hate. What if they just don’t respect women, you know, for totally understandable non-hatey reasons that aren’t misogynistic at all?
I mean, there’s nothing misogynistic about refusing to show an entire gender any respect because of some reasons you came up with, right?
Anyway, what’s got me wondering all this is a recent stickied post on the Red Pill Subreddit, home to ALPHA DUDES who totally score with the hot women like all the time. The post, by a dude with the totally non-lady-hating name of bitchdantkillmyvibe is titled “I don’t hate women, I just don’t respect them, and unless many changes within their gender come about, I never will,” and really, I don’t think I’ve ever read a less lady-hating title than that.
So let’s hear this dude out, huh?
TRP gets regularly blasted for ‘hating’ women. TRP does not hate women, bar the vitriolic men usually new to TRP who are still overcoming their understandable bitterness and resentment.
Exactly! Red Pillers totally don’t hate women, except for the ones that do.
TRP just sees women for what they are, and the ways they behave, and treats them accordingly.
Exactly! We don’t hate women for being women, we just hate them for acting like women.
Oh, wait, we don’t hate them.
TRP does not hate women – TRP does not respect women, and they give us reason after reason not to.
There are a number of reasons I do not respect women. Again, as creatures of fun and entertainment, I love them.
Like, seriously, how can you hate something if you like to stick your penis in it, huh? PURE STEM LOGIC.
I never feel feelings of hatred towards them, more annoyance, dissappointment and, as mentioned, a severe lack of the respect they claim they so desperately want.
Yeah, bitches are always claiming to desperately want respect. What’s that about?
So anyway, bitchdantkillmyvibe goes through his list of reasons for not giving the ladies the respect they claim they so desperately want.
His list begins with all those terrible fatties who want to be treated as human beings despite being terrible fatties.
The fat acceptance movement is one of the clearest and best examples of how women completely lack any sense of agency and how they demand the most respect for the least amount of work or effort. ….
In reverse, you never see anything close to a fat acceptance movement among men, when men still face a lot of the issues about image and self esteem. Men get just as bombarded by the media about what is attractive and what isn’t, and instead of trying to rewrite the rules to our benefit, we either shape up, or don’t.
Yeah, I mean, it’s not like men are actually more likely to be overweight or obese than women or that women are actually likely to face more criticism and outright discrimination based on weight or anything. And it’s not like most diets actually fail and that dieting in the end often backfires and can cause people to gain more weight. Or that stigmatizing fat people is completely ineffective at causing them to lose weight and, yep, can also cause them to gain weight instead.
Oh wait, all of those things are true.
But bitchdantkillmyvibe is on to his next topic: child custody.
The way women embrace the broken system surrounding child custody laws is another example in women’s solipsism, and worse, their complete disregard and almost sociopathic lack of care for not only their husband/partner/lover, but the father of their child, their offspring, who without, would never have been able to grant her such a gift to begin with.
Yeah, I mean, it’s not like judges grant primary custody to the person who’s been doing the bulk of the child care and that this person is usually the mother.
In my opinion, the way women abuse child custody laws is reason enough to lack complete respect for women and is the biggest reason, personally, I will never respect their gender. Taking a father’s child away from him is one of the most horrible, disgusting, vile, vindictive, malicious and heartless things you can do to a man. I don’t care how much he may have hurt you, or how badly you want to get back at him, taking his seed away from him eclipses almost any wrongdoing he may have done to the woman.
Wait what? If the father has been, say, beating the crap out of the mother, wouldn’t it make sense to keep him away from the kids so that he won’t beat the crap out of them too?
This shows the true nature of modern women – that they only care for themselves and lack compassion almost entirely. I wouldn’t take a man’s child away from him even if he was the lowest of scum.
Uh, really? I’m pretty sure kids are a lot better off when they’re not being raised by “the lowest of scum,”particularly if this particular scum has a history of violence.
I wouldn’t wish that on my worst enemy, and for women to do that to someone they once loved and who once loved them back, and most likely supported them in a number of ways, not only dumbfounds me, but it scares me.
Hmm. I’m sort of beginning to wonder if this bitchdantkillmyvibe fellow might actually hate women. And possibly children too.
Oh, but he’s not done yet. He next takes on the specter of FEMINISM.
I’m a bit conflicted, because while the feminist movement did succeed in earning women some basic human rights that they shouldn’t have been denied, it is also largely responsible for the dismal state of the modern woman now.
After the world gave women almost everything they demanded, they still want more. …
For all this talk about ‘male privilege’, if you are born a white women with relative attractiveness, you are living life on easy mode.
Ah, yes, because all women are “white women with relative attractiveness.” And because that’s all it takes to become massively successful and powerful in the world today. That’s why 95.6% of CEOs of Fortune 500 companies are “white women with relative attractiveness.”
Oh, wait, I’m being told that 95.6% of the CEOs of Fortune 500 companies are actually men, not women. Sorry.
The feminist movement is now about the most trivial ‘rights’ being awarded to women and continuing to uphold the image that women are ‘oppressed’, when this could not be further from the truth. Women are more privileged than ever and get more pussy passes than in any point in history.
Here is a chart showing the increase in pussy passes over time.
Oops, sorry. That’s actually a chart showing the average annual output prices for potatoes in Scotland from 2003 to 2012. So in case you were wondering about that, you’re welcome!
I’m not sure where to look to find the historical data on pussy pass distribution.
The feminist movement is an example in how if you give an inch with a woman, she will take a mile. We were wrong to entertain their demands to begin with, thinking that if some of their demands were appeased, they would be content and more productive members of society. But … no matter how much more we continue to give them, they will never be sated and never feel content.
Yeah, I’m not detecting any misogyny here. Nope. None whatsoever.
And now we move onwards to rape. Well, “false rape culture.”
[F]or all the talk about ‘rape culture’, we are living in a society where women are taking more and more liberties with the law that already aggressively favors them by accusing men of rape for their own benefit.
Exactly. And there are so many benefits women get from accusing men of rape! Let’s see. They get to collect the $10,000 “rape accusation bounty” that’s placed by the government on every able-bodied adult man. And …
Wait. I’m being told there is no “rape accusation bounty” and that “you just made that up.”
Here we have another example of the vindictive, hurtful nature of women, where they only care about themselves and benefitting themselves, even at the behest of another man’s livelihood. Note, it’s not because they hate men – it’s because they hate everyone, or more appropriately, women are completely solipsistic and anyone’s wellbeing outside of their own is an afterthought.
Definitely no misogyny here at all.
This is the real reason ‘rape culture’ exists, to continue the victimisation of women and the benefits they reap by being society’s victim. They create a problem that isn’t there so they can exploit it to their own advantage. They willingly destroy men’s lives, careers and reputations, marking them permanently for the rest of their life, purely for their own gain. Men are completely disposable in a woman’s eyes, and this again is reason to not only disrespect them, but fear them.
But don’t get too sad, ladies, because, “as creatures of fun and entertainment,” he still LOVES you!
For all of men’s downfalls, nothing comes close to the manipulative, cold and psychopathic nature of women, not to mention that many of the slurs launched against men only apply to a small subset – rape is minimal and women are lucky to live in an age where the overwhelming majority of men view this as a most heinous act. …
However, the reasons I have listed here apply to an overwhelming majority of modern women …
Until these fundamental changes occur within the female gender – which I highly doubt they will – women will never be deserving of our respect and for them to demand otherwise is completely laughable.
But, ladies, remember – he still likes putting his penis in you!
Again, I do not hate women – I love women, I love fucking them, I love laughing with them, I love having fun with them, and even sometimes losing myself in the emotional rollercoaster that is their feminine nature which I am unable to experience.
Yep. “The emotional rollercoaster that is their feminine nature which I am unable to experience.” Which is located right next to “The Emotional Ragin Cajun that is their feminine nature which I am unable to experience” at “The Emotional Six Flags Great America that is their feminine nature which I am unable to experience.”
But respect them? Never. Not until these horrible rituals are called out as the disgusting, inhumane practices they are.
Ladies, he’s single! He’s horny! He loves to laugh!
I guess part of my issue with a lot of personality disorders is that, generally speaking, in order for something to be considered a disorder, one of the primary criteria is that it must interfere with a person’s quality of life/ability to function, and with at least some personality disorders, I don’t think the diagnosed person would say that it does do that.
So to me it just seems like we’re pathologizing assholitude, to the point where, well, why don’t we have, say, Abusive Personality Disorder, because there are certainly a cluster of behaviors that abusers tend to show? AFAIK, we don’t have any kind of solid proof as to etiology for the majority of PDs, so we’re really just diagnosing people with showing a cluster of behaviors, some of which are so vague that I really hesitate to refer to them as “symptoms.”
Marie,
I scrolled back up and re read and it does read like I’m just addressing you, lol! sorry for the confusion.
@Marie:
That “Love” cake is gorgeous!
The existence of oppositional personality disorder as a thing that’s in the DSM kind of illustrates why I feel like psych diagnoses should always be treated with a bit of healthy suspicion and looked at in context. As in, that particular disorder just kind of sounds like “being a child” to me, so then I ask myself, whose interests would it be in for that to exist as a diagnosis? How does this fit in with the history of, say, diagnosing women as mentally ill for wanting more independence than their society wanted them to have, or for wanting sex?
I’m not saying throw the baby out with the bathwater, and some psych diagnoses are more solid than others. I’m just saying that whenever something that sounds like pretty typical and not necessarily disordered behavior is being diagnosed, particularly in a group of people who don’t have much social power, a bit of skepticism might be a good idea.
cassandrakitty – damn, yes, I didn’t even get to the stage of thinking about the lack of social power element of it; I just had my WTF bells go off the first time I read about oppositional so-called disorder.
Actually asking “who does this benefit?” is a good idea in a lot of situations. Tends to clarify things nicely.
“When people at westeros.org ask if Arya or Joffrey from ASOIAF/GoT are psychopaths, I argue that the evidence actually shows PTSD and oppositional defiant disorder respectively. That way it doesn’t hurt anyone.”
I thought Joffrey was actually a pretty clear cut case of Anti-Social Personality Disorder, with both genetic and environmental factors as the cause. Of course, the fact that the setting is what it is (really shitty for ones mental health and moral compass) muddies the waters a bit.
Oh sure, there are tons of nice narcissists. So long as you pit them on a nice high pedestal, polish it daily, run yourself ragged caring for them and making them look fabulous. Fail in those duties for even one moment and the knives come out. The wake of destruction a narcissist leaves behind is staggering even when it’s mild. I feel sorry for them a bit, because it’s usually a disorder picked up from narcissist parents. It is a disorder in that their personalities prevent them from ever having any type of legit relationship, but most of them don’t care. I’ve also read that they suffer some pretty crippling identity and esteem issues, but most fail to have any insight as to who they really are or the damage they do.
Narcissists truly are assholes and it’s best to completely avoid them. I really don’t care that it’s a disorder because I know how badly they fuck everyone around them over. It’s a group of personality traits made to abuse and most can’t be arsed to even try fixing it.
10knives,
Minors aren’t diagnosed with antisocial personality disorder. In the books he’s about 13 I think. He’s older than in the show.
IDK, I never start threads trying to diagnose the characters but other people do so I try to clear up misconceptions because the terms sociopath and psychopath are just way overused. Not just in the ASOIAF fandom but in general.
Not an expert, but I think oppositional defiant disorder is supposed to be constant hostility – all well developed kids do and should show defiance over pretty much everything from time to time. This is boundary exploration and healthy. My toddler shows random levels of opposition to most things, and then shortly afterwards is happy to adopt them.
But ODD is constant high hostility even when there is no advantage or benefit (the kid that can’t stop punching someone or injuring themselves even when there’s a positive reinforcement available); when the child is experiencing constant distress. I think the key there is that the child themselves is freaked out and it’s associated with low self-esteem and high levels of aggression towards others. It’s often regarded as an outcome from really poor parenting (aggression, sexual abuse and so on), though some versions could be chemical.
Doesn’t mean that ODD is the kid’s ‘fault’, but it’s still the kid having to cope with a series of impulses that need to be worked with to avoid being massively disadvantaged on a day to day basis. The ideal is to treat this.
I did know someone growing up with this and there was no way anyone around them could possibly think it was normal child behaviour – it was literal frothing aggression (he’d work himself up to the point where he foamed) and will to injure, inability to tell the truth rather than choosing not to. The boy was terrifying to be around – but the person MOST terrifying to be around was his father, who’s attitude was violent to all children. Actually, all people – I saw the guy hit a teacher once!
I’m absolutely certain it gets slapped on kids just being kids, but yeah, the markers should be overwhelming, inextricable hostility, not ‘I don’t wanna’.
steampunked – thanks for that info! That makes the first thing I read about it (by a psychiatrist talking about his own kid, no less) even more dodgy, because he wasn’t talking about aggression at all – just the child not wanting to do anything she was told. Brrr.
Does it sound to you like the condition’s been really badly named? “Opposition” and “defiant” sound exactly like lack of obedience is what it’s all about; there’s nothing in the name that even suggests raging aggression comes into it.
A lot of mental illneses are badly named, especially those relating to personality disorders. Hell, the term “personality disorder” itself if fairly sketch, imo.
Marie, your cake is pretty and it looks tasty.
Yeah, if the diagnosis was applied as written that wouldn’t be so bad, but it seems to have become the new thing to diagnose kids who’re just kind of a pain in the ass with.
And that should extend to social groups considered deviant, namely trans people. Most cis people think that the diagnosis of “gender identity disorder” is appropriate for trans people because we’re abnormal, but in reality it just serves cis people through a validation of their normalized gender. The same thing can be said for cis-centric discourses, particularly ones concerning questions such as “Are trans people normal?” and “Are trans people mentally ill?”
The very word abnormal sucks as it’s applied to people, so often. It makes people sound like cancer cells.
@David
Yeah … the twitter thing is screwed up. You are awesome. Don’t forget this. Hugs if you want them.
@marie @LBT @Leum
Also (for anyone who wants it), here is a parrot hugging a kitty:
https://www.facebook.com/greenrenaissance/photos/a.210721328945659.58322.120085081342618/794474417237011/?type=1
@cassandrakitty
There definitely is a “who does it benefit” element. I am a bit eccentric, but, in general I am happy, I function in society, I look after my friends and I try to be a good person. However, I am a woman, people don’t expect women to be eccentric (or in STEM), and I also fit enough of the DSM personality disorder criterion naturally for it to be a worry.
CW: Depression & breakdowns.
I was bullied really badly by a supervisor maybe eight years ago and I had a breakdown. When I told my family what happened, a percentage of them thought I had suddenly become incapable of logic (as I must have been to misinterpret “obvious” mentoring as bullying), that I was lazy, or that I was outright lying. Then I went to a psychiatrist and they told me I had a personality disorder.
However, the diagnosis didn’t make sense as this supervisor gave me three projects to do (where most people got one), had a history of people having mental breakdowns and the fact that there was a flood of additional mental breakdowns from the same department after I left (I check on these people occasionally and the ones I can find are now fine). Also, I had successfully worked with a range of bosses before that point. I have since worked with even more bosses and this has never repeated.
It wouldn’t be a problem except the psychiatrist put it in a letter to my doctor and I started to get all this “isn’t it interesting how these things keep happening to you …” comments. “What ‘things’?” “How is once, ‘keep happening’?”. I had to go to get the antidepressant prescriptions, but I didn’t need that crap too on top of e.g. uninvited lectures from parts of my family about how I wasn’t “emotionally intelligent” for leaving that department because I didn’t realise how bad it made me look.
At least my brother was nice to me. Yey for nice brothers.
Anyway, so I find personality disorder diagnoses and all the criterion in them triggery as anything. It also means that I get very anxious when one of the criterion gets mentioned, or people say that no-one with this criterion in this state exists.
To be fair, I would probably have a good cry if I had upset people. However, I would then go and properly apologise for it and never do it again.
Re: “abnormal”, we had a psychology lecturer (only had to do 1 first year course, blah) who kept using “normal”. It made me wince every. single. time. I almost wrote and asked her to switch to neurotypical but I’d already emailed 2 other lecturers with complaints and was just done at that time.
Re: personality disorders/mental health; skepticism is definitely in order but symptoms generally sound like a common behaviour because pretty much all mental disorders are a “normal” trait overacting to the point where it negatively impacts your life.
This is a bug bear of mine because people are always doing the “I’m so OCD!” or “we’ve all been depressed” and AGH no, you’ve been sad, you’ve had grief, you may have obsessions or compulsions but you don’t have a goddamn disorder.
Personality disorders are… complicated. I don’t trust the psych industry at all but to one degree or another the personality disorder thing seems a workable model. And they’re not untreatable – just difficult and not at all consistantly treatable. :/
My good friend’s (abusive! ex-) wife probably had BPD and knew it (OMG her history just makes me want to cry and cry) – she also worked as a healthcare assistant, and got to hear the drs saying to each other “oh, she has borderline – so she’s fucked, ha.” -_-
I have completely armchair diagnosed my mother as having BPD. She fits the criteria to a T – including the history of physical, emotional and sexual abuse. Her behaviour is sometimes pretty shocking, she is incapable of seeing it: and I don’t think she will ever get real help. She finds therapists that will enable her and fires everyone else.
She has really fucked me up and her behaviour with her partner and my siblings is abusive, but I can kind of understand – I really don’t know that she would survive actually trying to work through her issues. Every time she has left her partner she has become suicidal.
Holy shit, AL3H. I also worked with a horrendous bully, and you could not describe to people how bad she was. She caused multiple people mental breakdowns but even people who worked with her would soften once they didn’t have to deal with it.
I am so, so sorry you got that. I feel I have been extremely unlucky in the number of fuckwits I have had to deal with in my life, and if someone tried to imply I was imagining it because I was actually abusive… I can’t. I don’t even know. 🙁
Yeah, it’s not that the personality disorders are complete crap, from a diagnostic/describing a cluster of behaviors perspective, it’s just that you have to pay attention to the social context, which sometimes makes them unreliable/applied in sketchy ways that reinforce negative social trends.
The anti-BPD thing is so frustrating. Yes, people with BPD can be quite taxing on their friends and family, but they’re also people. So pervasive, too – a friend of mine, generally a lovely (if strident) person and a well-respected mental health advocate, started whinging about BPD as being “bitch syndrome” or something similar and diagnosed my ex with having it after having never met them based on a few complaints I had. Very sad.
AL3H, that kitty and parrot are so. adorable. <3
Seconded, what a pair!
Well it looks like there were some really unpleasant topics in this thread. I would like to offer hugs to anyone who would like them and adorable animals to all:
http://ts4.mm.bing.net/th?id=HN.608004117480474092&pid=1.7
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_8CPrvL4w2BU/TGgVncmymDI/AAAAAAAABKU/gK2EjR7OxZI/s1600/Spotted-Tailed+Quoll.JPG
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-IkOfkgymsAY/UApL6_ChmhI/AAAAAAAANG4/MXBEeJu0x4Y/s1600/Numbat3.jpg
http://australianmuseum.net.au/Uploads/Images/22045/Bilby_%20Howard%20Hughes_big.jpg
http://cdn1.arkive.org/media/7F/7FF4FB59-E0B4-4BE7-9149-CEBEDC94C706/Presentation.Large/Eastern-barred-bandicoot-P-g-nova.jpg
I definitely agree with all of that, cassandrakitty!