Here’s a horrible comment from Reddit’s always horrible White Rights subreddit that reveals some of the ways that the central ideas and obsessions of the manosphere are oozing their way into the thinking, such as it is, of the racist right. Birds of a feather flock together, and I guess the same is true of hateful shitheads.
What’s interesting to me is how easily Mr. Saturnine83 here is able to take the traditional racist paranoia about white women not popping out enough white babies to keep the white race going and make the whole “problem” about stuck-up ladies who won’t date him decent white men. For those filling out bingo cards, note the references to”disposible” men and “involuntary celibacy.”
Oh, we have no doubt you could go on and on endlessly. Guys like you always can.
If you’re interested in exploring further connections between “Men’s Rights” and “White Rights,” check out the MRMorWhiteRights subreddit, which tracks this stuff in an entertaining way, and which is where I found the link to Saturnine83’s little screed.
Oh, fuck that. So gross.
Ugh. I’m with Ally; that’s super gross and this likely tidbit makes it even grosser. 🙁
@Anarchonist – your fantasy world where people don’t do racism, sexism, etc. reminded me of a heartwarming memory from my high school experience.
We had a lot of variety in my high school (it was DOD, but international students were allowed to pay tuition to attend, plus contractors children could attend for free), and for the most part, we got along. Yes, there was the sexism of the “boys will be boys” allowance for my harassers. However, the racism wasn’t such a thing.
One time, we had a guest speaker in one of my classes. He started with a Polish joke. Everyone glared at him, and he asked why (he had barely even started the joke, mind you, but had identified the Polish element). One kid raised his hand, and said, “my friend here,” (pointing to friend) “is Polish.”
“Oh. OK, ummm, Czechoslovakian. So, the Czech says… What?”
“She’s Czech,” said a couple of students, pointing to a girl behind me.
“Oh. OK, Russian.”
GLARES. “Ivan is Russian.” We were all getting into it, now.
“OK, Paki.”
GLARES, and kids pointed to the Pakistani girl in the class.
He started with Black, but dropped that before he could complete the word. Finally he just gave up on the joke and rushed through his talk without any more attempts at humor. It was glorious.
Actually, his talk was boring, but I’ll never forget that community in that classroom that day. It wasn’t always so warm, but it was so wonderful to see a real-life example of love and acceptance, done right.
Maybe it’s just me, but I think your vision of a society where race and sex aren’t issues would pack more punch if an outsider were to fall afoul of it, and be called on it in some way. Although, if it’s not a thing, at all, anyone who were to act racist would probably be greeted with confusion, and a “What? Why would you even think that?” response.
Just a suggestion.
I hadn’t thought of that memory for a while. Thanks for reminding me.
Robert,
I have no idea. I didn’t stick around long enough to ask for details. 😛
Beautiful. And no doubt funnier than the joke.
Michelle, that’s a great story!
That story made me so happy, Michelle; thanks for sharing it and feel better soon!
Hell yes, that story! Amazing how many variations on “racist against x group” it required to shut him up. -_- And “Paki”?? Fuuuuck you.
@Winterwalker – I hear you on the non-procreating thing. I don’t want to pass on my own problems, either.
@Marie – Yes, I live in US. In the South, too! And while I will say that there is plenty of racism here, I will also say that there are plenty of non-racists, as well, and if you choose your company, you can avoid that stuff. Being a mostly-shut-in because of health means I really choose my company. Once I’m more out and about, I’ll have to face much more. Still, it’s comforting to know that there are plenty of good people here, and the whole area’s not heck in a hand basket.
Fatphobia and ableism are the biggies when it comes to scooters. I don’t use they handicapped spots (soft-tissue injury, so I can’t be officially disabled, according to my doctor), but I’ll use the scooters. People are more likely to judge a fat person out loud than a visibly disabled person. But it’s those pesky non-visible disabilities that really bring out the worst in the judgmental jerks, even without the fat. Add fat to the mix, and they can be pretty hateful.
Fortunately, I must be giving off vibes, or something, because more and more people are treating me with dignity, and even smiling, and fewer and fewer are giving me the stink-eye. And I’m still fat.
Incidentally, after 30 years of dieting, I gave up on the practice, and my weight has finally stabilized. Yep, I’m one of those who gain weight when I diet. I once gained 3 pounds from the stomach flu.
Yeah, I’m not too fond of the omniscient outside narrator style, either, but it can work. It just depends. It’s never been my style of writing, though. I usually get into one person’s head, at a time, and tell what they are experiencing, and thinking.
I have finished one novel (first draft), in a fantasy world, with human race, elves, dwarves, menfolk, elementals, and the like. My heroine actually is part of a minority, though. She is half “Gypsy.” I’ll probably rename that group, but that is the group upon which I based her ancestors. Romani, not Irish Traveler. Traveling about the countryside, never settling down, rarely welcomed, and rather insular, with their own rites and ceremonies. However, they are my own creation, so wind up different, anyway. Not incidentally, they have an interesting history cross-breeding with another species on the planet (this becomes important with her granddaughter). Her mother (the Gypsy) settled down with a village man. Her family was ticked about it (well, they did lose her, after all), but they come to visit, because they still love her, and they welcome my heroine to come join them for a year or so. The man’s village friends and relations, on the other hand, shunned him, and my heroine is regularly harassed by the village children. She finds solace among a new race. Everyone knows about unicorns, of course, but no one has ever connected with them, until her. Unicorns are a matriarchal group, due to biology (there’s more than just the wombs, here. It’s a magical thing, but I don’t want to spoil it. Someday, I’m publishing it). Due to a magical happening, my heroine becomes a member of the unicorn society, although they think of her as something of a cripple, what with her two legs, tiny stature, and slow speed. However, they all acknowledge that her hands come in useful, and are, in fact, the reason for the magical happening that allowed her to connect with them, in the first place. Due to war and propaganda, she becomes even more of an outcast than before, and has to engage in a quest to save the countries involved in this war. There’s adventure and romance, and a bit of not-fitting-in going on. In this world, humans are humans, but there are plenty of genetic variants, such as skin tone, hair type, etc. It’s not really a thing, though, as there are other actual species to judge.
So, I guess you could say I’ve already written a WOC, except she’s not from Earth or any Earth society, so I didn’t consider it as such.
My current novel involves a girl from modern day Texas being accidentally sent back in time to Regency England, where she naturally feels extremely out of place. In her small town, there are no people of color, but when she goes to London, she’ll encounter more variety, and be very glad of it, taking comfort in the reminder of home. Things are getting interesting with the debate about abolition, and if Blacks born in England to slaves are free, or if they are slaves, and if the trade, itself should be abolished, so she’ll be at least faced with that, although how she involves herself is something I’ve yet to determine. It’s not yet fully plotted. She is my POV character, though. Her comfort food is burritos, and she has a really hard time finding the real thing. Her morning alarm is “Play That Funky Music, White Boy.” So, yeah, she’s white, and most of the people with whom she is forced to associate, at first, are white.
I want to do some more research into the “Belle” of the movie. She’s historical, and if the information fits, I might do a meeting between them. At any rate, she was not the only one in a similar situation, so I might wind up creating a similar character for her to befriend. I think Heather would like that. As I said, she’s uncomfortable in her homogeneous small town, and misses the variety of home. Not to fetishize POC, though. More like having something in common. They are both out of place and struggling in this society, just in different ways. I could be brave and write a chapter or two from a friend’s POV. It’s all fairly nebulous, at this point. Too early in the process to know anything for sure. It’s supposed to be a romance, and I know who I want her to marry, in the end, but not yet how to get there.
I have sketched out a scene where she’s at a house party, and she enters a room where two men are making out. They are afraid, because it’s illegal, and she could destroy them, but she just shrugs and excuses herself, thinking nothing of it. Later, though, she realizes that one of them is courting one of the ladies in the party, and that lady is a real romantic, looking for love. She confronts the man, and tells him that she doesn’t care about his sexuality, but if he uses her friend as a beard, denying her the chance for real love, then it’s NOT ON, MISTER! She encourages him to find some other, more honest arrangement. Currently, the plan for this side character is for him to enter into an acknowledged marriage of convenience with a woman who has no interest in men
Darn, hit Post comment too soon.
Anyway, it’s all still pretty nebulous.
All the encouragement and Jedi hugs wanted to all the mamotheer writers out there. And it’s OK to take a break, when you need it. I didn’t write for a long time, due to health issues and simply not having enough spoons.
The thing about writing is, it waits for you. It will be there when you’re ready to take it up again.
As for appropriation, my opinion is that it’s not up to the white person to decide what is appropriation, but for the people of the culture from which potential appropriation will happen to make that call. And some may say it is, and some may say it isn’t. If your heart’s in the right place, hopefully that will shine through.
I have no idea about technical issues. If I did, my website might actually function.
@michelle
Uh, yeah, you definetey should, cuz G**sy is a slur. -_-. If it’s a made-up group, I’d 1) ditch the slur, and 2) just read and make sure that you aren’t using any common racist tropes, even if it is made up.
I don’t know if it’s something you’d be interested in, but here is a link that has more on Romani terminology.
Unicorns are matriarchal? Awesome! 😀
:3 I just like seeing little details about characters like that.
@michelle
^this. You don’t know how long I figured I wasn’t meant to be a writer because of the “writers write every day” BS
yup. I have a chronic pain condition* which requires me to use a wheelchair. I got a manual wheelchair b/c a) i can’t think of a way to transport a scooter or electric wheelchair in a car ad b) i just felt weird about using a scooter. B/c it seems like, to me, wheelchair reads as “disabled” but scooter reads as “lazy”, in the minds of lots of annoying people.>.<. and when people switch from knowing i'm not "real" disabled (they all assume paralyzed) to just "fakey" disabled i feel a lot more judged. i actually stop myself from getting out of my wheelchair in public places b/c i don't like it. :/
*fibromyalgia
////aaaaanyway that was really random and i'm not sure where i was going except fatphobia and ableism suck. (it's relevant that i'm also fat but i wasn't really before i got disabled, so it didn't factor into my 'wheelchairscooter' decision)
for some reason, it’s easier for me to worldbuild/character build than write when i’m feeling icky. So i’ll wind up with like, two pages written and 60 minor characters XD
^this. You don’t know how long I figured I wasn’t meant to be a writer because of the “writers write every day” BS
Too right. That annoys the crap out of me. I can go for years without writing much, then write heaps. Doesn’t make me less of a writer, not that publishing is something I write for. I write when I want to. I’m not much impressed with the “you’re a writer if you write because you HAVE to” line, either.
@skye – I know what you mean about the fad of claiming an “Indian princess” in the family history. That’s why I won’t claim it, until/unless I have real proof.
Now, I have cousins who are acknowledged Native Americans, living on the reservation, and everything, and one of them, who is into her family genealogy, is the one who said that Skillethead was a Native American thing. But this was just in conversation, and I have no hard data to back it up. She also said we have some Black in the family, but again, no specifics or solid evidence. We do share ancestors on the maternal side, so I’m interested in comparing notes with her.
I was raised white. While acknowledging 14% Black heritage wouldn’t upset me a bit, I also know that culturally, I can’t lay claim to it, because I’ve always had the white privilege.
Should I be able to prove that I do have Native American heritage, I won’t be trying to claim a spot on the reservation, or anything like that. Still, one day, when traveling is an option, I do want to take my other cousin up on the invitation to visit him on “the res.”
Knowing I have a family connection does make me a bit more sensitive to stories about mistreatment of the Native Americans that I used to, when I was young, and didn’t even know my cousins were part of that. See, when I was a kid, I rarely ever saw them, and when I did, I just thought they had similar coloring to my sister, and nobody said anything about Native American heritage. They didn’t acknowledge it, themselves, until a couple of decades ago, apparently. But they have looked it up, and do have proof of a valid claim, and have embraced the culture and heritage, dealing with the tribal elders over certain familial matters, like divorce and the right to a particular name. I don’t have too many details.
Any Trail of Tears heritage is likely on their father’s side, and not on my mother’s.
“White people who say shit like “I’m 1/16th Cherokee and not offended by the name Washington Redskins therefore it’s not offensive!” make me sick.”
Sort of like saying, “I’m not racist. Some of my best friends are Black.”
Yeeeaaahhhhh.
And it’s always a “princess.” Heck, doesn’t that mean that there’s a king and/or queen before her? Why not claim them? Why stop at the child of a monarch, without claiming the monarch?
Hehehe. My “Indian Princess” was labeled as Cherokee, too. Such a cliche.
I have GOT to get with my cousin to get some real, verified details.
@chimisaur – Congrats on winning the tick-off-the-bigots game!
@fromafar – thanks for the recommendation. Bird by Bird is in my shopping cart.
Totally counts. Having POC from real-world cultures is Very Very Important, but there’s a big problem with fantasy being completely white (Noah being the most recent example) and it’s also important to have diversity in those settings; for instance, lots of POC have talked about liking the Earthsea books because they had nonwhite protagonists and they felt better able to relate to them.
I’m between drafts at the moment; want me to edit your novel?
@LBT – computer brains and oppression – sounds highly interesting.
RE: Michelle
Thanks! I look intensely forward to being able to put that stuff in the stories; they just haven’t been written yet.
@Lea – “I’ve also had a white man explain to me that it was fine for him to say the “N” word and even name his little black dog that, because he was “one seventh black”. WTF?”
WTAF?
I just, I can’t…. Nope.
@lea + michelle
Wait, he named his dog a slur???? wow…………