Here’s a horrible comment from Reddit’s always horrible White Rights subreddit that reveals some of the ways that the central ideas and obsessions of the manosphere are oozing their way into the thinking, such as it is, of the racist right. Birds of a feather flock together, and I guess the same is true of hateful shitheads.
What’s interesting to me is how easily Mr. Saturnine83 here is able to take the traditional racist paranoia about white women not popping out enough white babies to keep the white race going and make the whole “problem” about stuck-up ladies who won’t date him decent white men. For those filling out bingo cards, note the references to”disposible” men and “involuntary celibacy.”
Oh, we have no doubt you could go on and on endlessly. Guys like you always can.
If you’re interested in exploring further connections between “Men’s Rights” and “White Rights,” check out the MRMorWhiteRights subreddit, which tracks this stuff in an entertaining way, and which is where I found the link to Saturnine83’s little screed.
You all make me wish my writing was decent enough to put some fiction out there – yes it seems like there are plenty of complex representation headaches you’re dealing with, but the community and problem solving required look like great fun to me.
Also, an aside – what *is* with people claiming indian “princess” in their heritage? I went to a very rural southern-US high school, and there were several angelo classmates of mine making such claims. As far as I know, most native american nations did not really have a monarchy political structure, so is princess intended to mean such in that sense, or is it just being used in that even worse awkward way which people will infantilize non-working-class women?
Apologies for any insensitivity that may have accidentally slipped in there to people with actual native american heritage due to my ignorance of north American pre-colonial politics. Any corrective or clarifying comments up to and including “please shut your privileged face; you are embarrassing yourself” are welcome.
@ chimisaur
If you wish to be a writer, write! – Epictetus
Warning, writing often looks like: http://petercruikshank.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/WritersBlock.jpg
Seriously though, there’s a lot to be said for sucking at something often enough that you become good at it. If you are looking for resources, I used to work at my college Writers’ Center and can make some recommendations.
My favorite for light reading is Bird by Bird, by Anne Lamott.
http://www.amazon.com/Bird-Some-Instructions-Writing-Life/dp/0385480016/ref=tmm_pap_title_0?ie=UTF8&qid=1400784417&sr=1-1
Especially appreciate the chapter titled ‘Shitty First Drafts’.
As for the ‘indian princess’ offensive trope, I know what you mean. When I was younger I lived in the US south and saw a lot of the same. Usually it was deeply racist people trying to validate their racism or look less racist, but really its just an attempt to claim the benefits of the ‘Noble Savage’ stereotype without needing to educate themselves or having to live with the consequences of actually being native american in a horribly racist society.
The only good thing is it helps you spot the racists really easily so you can avoid them. 😀
Wow. Talk about method acting!
No, you’re right and I always roll my eyes at that too. I agree with Fromaafar. It’s something people pull out of their asses to justify saying racially insensitive things. For some reason it’s almost always Cherokee with these people. Is that the only tribe they know about or something?
It’s funny, because I’m white and my family had no idea we had Native American ancestry until we had genetic testing done. It’s a shame it got covered up. It makes me sad that my knowledge of my heritage is incomplete. I know all about my German and English and Norwegian ancestors. I don’t even know what tribe and will probably never find out. We’re guessing based on location that it’s Mohican but we’ll probably never confirm it.
The thing is, I’m still mostly European. My skin is white, my surname is Anglo-Saxon. I have white privilege. I would never use that piece of my ancestry to claim an oppression I’ve never experienced or try to justify saying racist things.
White people who say shit like “I’m 1/16th Cherokee and not offended by the name Washington Redskins therefore it’s not offensive!” make me sick.
Oof. I count myself lucky to have never heard that particular variation on the theme, although I did encounter one “I’m 1/16 Cherokee (now that you mention it, it really is always Cherokee :/) and so am as applicable for ‘diversity’ based financial aid as you!” which did rub me the wrong way (Private, southern HS, for which I had a scholarship to attend, which somehow makes the fake ancestry thing worse – most of these kids were super-privileged in more ways than simply ‘white’). I mean, to be fair, the white-passing thing *does* still make me feel weird about claiming minority status, despite the fact my family speaks better spanish than english (my father is 1/2 Italian, so I guess maybe I’m not Latina enough to count if we’re going down to 1/16 means you’re anything >_<;), although in this case the kid was flat-out wrong as my finaid was a combo of need-based and test-score related stuff.
Whoo, personal-rant over, promise. I guess the whole point was 1) poor actual Cherokee people and 2) glad I'm not the only one a little leery of/confused by these folks and their strange racism issues.
@fromafar Thanks for the writing resources! I’ll definitely give them a look, and maybe-if-one-day-I-am-brave-enough give this whole letting other people see my writing thing a shot!
My two bits on the writing POC into stories.
One thing I’ve seen a few white writers do is to make every important good guy/gal a POC. Examples that I can think of of this style are the Honor Harrington series (David Weber), and the Eve Dallas series(Nora Roberts writing as JD Robb). In fact, I think David Weber actually got more comfortable writing POC doing it this way; in the latest books there’s more POV writing from the POC characters.
This seems a great time to recommend folks Writing the Other, by Nisi Shawl and Cynthia Ward.
RE: Anarchonist
is it better to acknowledge the oppression of our real world in my fictional world, and have my characters struggle through it, or is it better to show a world where that oppression does not exist, and have my characters be treated equally?
To quote the little girl in the taco commercials: “why not have both?” I mean, just speaking for my labels, sometimes I want to read about characters struggling and fighting internalized transphobia and homophobia, and other times, I want to read these happy stories where they aren’t oppressed. Both of them, in my opinion, are totally valid. In fact, especially in fantastical settings, you can mix and match: for instance, in one of my worlds, having a brain type that doesn’t mesh with a neurocomputer is a disability with huge social and economic setbacks. A lot of humans with compatible brains have eased their own social differences… by uniting and oppressing everyone else. There’s a lot of ways to go about it.
RE: katz
Sometimes, a story isn’t amenable to certain changes. In which case, write other stories where you can write different people. I know I do this! Infinity Smashed heavily slants male, so I write other series with more heavily female casts.
RE: Winter Walker
I’ve been on and off working on a graphic novel set in a fantasy version of feudal Japan. I’ve been researching my butt off, but still worry about cultural appropriation. Is it even possible for a white girl to pull this off?
Sure. The only two epic fantasies I’ve enjoyed are Avatar: the Last Airbender (weird kludge of Japan, Inuit, China, and Tibet) and Sasha Miller’s Ladylord (fantasy feudal Japan). I know the writers for Avatar were not Japanese, Inuit, Chinese, or Tibetan. I have no idea about Sasha Miller.
RE: Anand
Am i banned here?
I see your words, so presumably no.
RE: chimisaur
what *is* with people claiming indian “princess” in their heritage?
*snrk* Actually, I’ve heard that “indian princess” actually means having some black in you, but I don’t know how true that is.
@ LBT
Seconding the “Writing the Other” rec. It’s also available on Kindle, btw.
My husband’s father’s family back in Oklahoma had Native American relations, which was apparently not uncommon among African Americans in that area. I’ve never met them. My great great grandfather’s younger brother was a pathfinder/fur trapper during the 1830s and ’40s, who was married to a Shoshone woman (not princess), so I very likely have distant cousins out in the Great Basin somewhere. Never met any of them, either*. There’s been a lot more race mixing in this country than gets talked about, apparently. I think the “Indian princess” meme is based on the idea that a white man procreating with a WoC is vaguely titillating in an exotic way, but a white woman doing the same with a MoC is racial pollution.
Then there’s the Melungeons, who are a wonderful example of ethnic confabulation in the American imagination. I don’t want to teal deer, but do look them up.
*My own ethnic background is an unlikely mix of Scots-Irish and actual Irish. My paternal grandfather turned his back on three centuries of Presbyterianism and converted to Catholicism to marry my grandmother. Now I’m married to an African American and have two sons, which is the closest I can get to actual race-mixing.
RE: fromafar2013
I haven’t actually read it, but I should. I just have heard great things about it.
@ LBT
It is awesome, you heard correctly. It’s full of great and mostly common sense information, but it uses excerpts from works like “Their Eyes Were Watching God” and “The Color Purple” as examples and discussion starters to really solidify the point.
My family has the same rumors of Native ancestors.That family legend involves a Cherokee woman too. It’s always a woman…what’s with that? Where are all the native grandpas? My husband’s family has those stories too.
Weird, isn’t it?
The trail of tears went through my hometown. I’ve wondered if all of the white folks trying to claim a Cherokee granny has something to do with distancing themselves from the crimes committed against native people? I don’t know. Maybe it it just sounds cooler than, “This is where the riverboat burned down with all their stuff on board. So, my family settled here”. <— That's actually how a branch of my family came to call this home.
I've also had a white man explain to me that it was fine for him to say the "N" word and even name his little black dog that, because he was "one seventh black". WTF?
@ LBT
Never mind, I’m confused. I was reading two similar books at the same time, so got confused. LOL. It does use excerpts though, specifically from “The Blazing World” and others, now that I’m looking at it. Same critique of it being awesome though.
Their Eyes Were Watching God IS awesome, though. I’ve never dared try to read The Color Purple. (I have a very low rape tolerance for media.)
I can totally see why it might be too triggering for some people to read, but The Color Purple really is a great book.
Yeah. Like, maybe when my head is a little steadier, I’ll give it a shot, but lately, I’m no good for anything but nonfiction and cuddly old favorite books like James Herriot or something.
I first picked up The Color Purple when I was five or six. I read the first page, was very confused, and brought it to my mom.
That was an interesting discussion.
Lea – one seventh black? Is he the result of genetic engineering? Or were two of his great grandparents the same person?
I scared my family today. Yesterday, while I was feeling GREEAAAT, I took out the recycling. They didn’t notice it until this morning, and asked if I took it out in the middle of the night, in my underwear.
Gee whiz, I am never going to live that down.
Gotta get off again. Today’s pill is kicking in.
Hope you have a speedy recovery, Michelle.
The pills really, really don’t sound fun. Well, kind of like too much fun, and then no fun at all. Crossing my fingers for you!
@michelle
Dang. I hope they aren’t making fun of you for it/being jerks about it. Unless you find not annoying, but I just think it’d be a jerk move to be laughing at you for what you did while high on pain pills.
@katz
Maybe a frame story, where characters mirror the actions of the historical people would give you some leeway for more major POC? In fact, if they are aware of the history, maybe one could take inspiration from the badass WOC, and tell her full story, of what happened later?
Just a suggestion. It would make it significantly longer, but that’s not necessarily a bad thing.
@Zolnier – thanks. That sounds really interesting.
I wonder too if people tell themselves she was a princess because that makes her one of the “good ones.” Not someone who could be a savage or any other terrible stereotype.