Here’s a horrible comment from Reddit’s always horrible White Rights subreddit that reveals some of the ways that the central ideas and obsessions of the manosphere are oozing their way into the thinking, such as it is, of the racist right. Birds of a feather flock together, and I guess the same is true of hateful shitheads.
What’s interesting to me is how easily Mr. Saturnine83 here is able to take the traditional racist paranoia about white women not popping out enough white babies to keep the white race going and make the whole “problem” about stuck-up ladies who won’t date him decent white men. For those filling out bingo cards, note the references to”disposible” men and “involuntary celibacy.”
Oh, we have no doubt you could go on and on endlessly. Guys like you always can.
If you’re interested in exploring further connections between “Men’s Rights” and “White Rights,” check out the MRMorWhiteRights subreddit, which tracks this stuff in an entertaining way, and which is where I found the link to Saturnine83’s little screed.
Till We Have Faces? I’m unfamiliar with that one.
BTW – IS it based on historical events? What events? And how closely based do you intend to do? Change the names, but keep the basic storyline-close? Or please, don’t keep the names, and change the storyline. I hate that.
Till We Have Faces was C.S Lewis last novel and the one he was most fond of, and in my opinion his least ethically revolting.
Basically it’s a retelling of the Cupid and Psyche myth from the perspective of Ishtar’s (Psyche is the Greek translation of her name) sister, Oural, the facially deformed and veiled queen of the land of Glome. Glome is a nasty little kingdom on the outskirts of Greece, The novel is framed as her written testimony against the gods for in her view tricking her into thinking her sister was merely mad rather than married to Cupid, or as the people of Glome know him, the God of the Grey Mountain.
Think of it as a predecessor to books like Wicked.
Real events featuring almost all real people, aside from the leads. And there’s the rub: The Night Witches were really, really white. There was exactly one nonwhite Night Witch: Khivaz Dospanova. She was pretty boss. Injured in a crash and thought to be dead. Nearly got buried alive but luckily someone noticed that her hands were still warm. Recovered through sheer willpower and rejoined the regiment.
But all that happened after my story takes place, so I have nothing for her to do. (She may yet find her way in, but she’s only one person.)
Aside from her, there are the infantry guys who are all fictional anyway, but a) it would be a very tokenish small part, b) it would be a group of one Russian, one Ukrainian, one Belarusian, and one Central Asian, and c) they all die (spoilers!), so I’d be killing off my minority.
And then there are the leads, which is possible, but seriously, I’d have to rewrite everything. EVERYTHING.
[Note: Privileged, white, straight cis man talking, so take the following with a grain of salt]
I’m with katz on this one. Of course it’s a good thing to research as much as you can first – the wonders of the Internet give you an amazing chance to read about the experiences of people from other backgrounds – but actually giving more representation to marginalized groups is probably better than doing what the white media has always done (ignored them). You will probably be criticized for the ignorant points, but take it as a learning experience.
There was a Tumblr post about this subject a week ago:
Source: http://americachavez.tumblr.com/post/85499504538/william-h-foster-iii-comic-book-historian-on
The problem with lack of representation is not going to be solved by ignoring it. Just… avoid relying on overused tropes and stereotypes, I guess? Ultimately, treating your characters as people first and other identities second might be a good place to start if you don’t have that much insight into their thoughts. Chances are that you hit the nail on the head more often that way than by defining your characters through their culturally structured identity first and their humanity second. Not that their cultural identity isn’t very important to many people, mind you.
As for me, I’m writing a sword and sorcery epic taking place in a world where human civilization developed very differently, and as a result, there is very little institutional oppression going on within human communities. There is some inspiration taken from real life cultures, but unlike our whitewashed history, the aim is to show that “whites” (if you can call them that) are by no means the default. Racial identity is not much of a thing in this world, since the typical fantasy world category “human race” (as opposed to, say, elves) very much applies. Cultural identity is a thing, though, and the main characters come from very different backgrounds.
Books and shows that showcase how fucked up our real world is can be very powerful commentary, but I wanted to create a world where women, POC and people who don’t fit in a gender or sexuality binary are treated as equal by communities. Not that the world is perfect, mind you – there’s a ton of fantastic racism and the like, but I want to treat the oppression as allegorical in order to acknowledge its existence but not having the main characters be limited by it. Sometimes I wonder if that’s a good decision or not.
Ultimately, my dilemma boils down to: is it better to acknowledge the oppression of our real world in my fictional world, and have my characters struggle through it, or is it better to show a world where that oppression does not exist, and have my characters be treated equally? I’ve read defenses of both approaches, but I’m not really sure which one is better. I don’t wish to minimize the struggles of minorities by making their oppression nonexistent, but I also want to show that they are just as capable as the dominant group in our world without forcing them to go the extra mile. I want a high-ranking officer to be a WOC without anyone batting an eye (much less crack a sexist or racist joke).
The point is to show a setting without the institutional oppression of certain human groups, but I also want to acknowledge that our real world is not like that. Mostly, I try to make it obvious by putting the characters in situations where the reader might expect racism, misogyny, homophobia etc. to raise their ugly heads, but then they don’t, because they’re not actually a thing in the setting. The sad part, I think, is that these scenes are probably going to surprise a lot of readers by taking a different turn than, say, a similar scene in Game of Thrones would.
It does sound like introducing PoC is going to smack of tokenism at this point – I’m thinking the book’s going to have to stick with white characters. If that’s a more realistic portrayal of the Night Witches and the people they mixed with, then it’d really look like tokenism to introduce people of colour just because – especially if those characters do get killed off.
Zolnier, I think the picture is of female KKK members. I could be wrong but that was my first assumption, and it makes sense with the caption.
*Looks closely*, have the Klan ever used a black bird as a logo? I tried searching and all I got was the Fraternal Order of the Raven from BioShock. You’re probably right though marci.
I’m pretty sure the gals in the picture are KK Klanners, though I’m not 100% sure,because their outfits are different than the KKK outfits I’m familiar with. Though I did find the pic being used to illustrate something on the KKK on an ohio state university “ehistory” page, which makes me think it is real. In any case, this was the funniest picture of women (probably) in the KKK I found.
Huh. The KKK did originally use a dragon as their symbol. It;s got wings, but it’s not the same shape as whatever it is in the pic I used.
http://www.kkklan.com/memora5.gif
Like Cassandra, I kind of wonder whether I’m a race traitor or not. Both me and Husband are pure white as far as that is possible, and we’ve chosen not to have kids. BUT on the other hand, I’m mentally ill, and the extreme right tend to think that mentally ill people ought not to reproduce, right? So the question is whether racial purity trumps mental illness or the other way around…
I’m kinda late to the writers’ party, but here’s my two cents.
I’m currently (trying) to write a science fiction-ish fantasy dystopian story. My main characters are almost all POC, my POV character is a teenaged black girl. She has one mixed race friend who identifies as white, and there is one other white boy who is in the story briefly. That’s it for the white people.
Disclaimer: I’m white.
I agree that writing outside of our experiences can seem intimidating, and writing POC as a white person is really easy to screw up… especially if you haven’t done any research and have literally NEVER talked to a non-white person in your life. That said, if you are concerned about screwing up royally, you are already doing it better than most people just by being mindful.
If you read fiction written by POC with POC characters, after about a dozen books you see what they all have in common: NOTHING. People are all unique, and while living as a POC in a deeply racist society with constant microaggressions affects who you are and how you grow, it does not affect everyone the same. Just knowing this and incorporating it into your character development (if appropriate) is a huge step in the correct direction. Also, avoid stereotypes at all costs.
Or just write speculative fiction in a utopian world with no racism, and your characters can be any race or ethnicity you like. ;D (j/k)
tl;dr
Read books written by POC. Write books with POC characters.
re: writing
i’m going to jump in b/c i write too! I love creating characters, characters who are different than me or the same as me. But yh if you’re doing a character who is part of a marginalized group you are not part of (like if you’re cis and you’re writing a trans character, white and writing a character of color) you are probably gonna screw up. But I don’t think that means you shouldn’t include them.
.
lately my task has been adding a bunch of disabled characters (b/c i’m fed up of not seeing any) and I have to do a toooooooon of research on the disabilities i don’t have. Same for making sure i’m not accidently including racial stereotypes on my characters of color and looking up the backgrounds for characters w/ different cultural backgrounds than mine. but i think it will pay off b/c the world isn’t uniform, and stories shouldn’t be either.
so tl;dr representation in media is awesome and it’s totally worth looking shit up for and accepting you will mess up! 😀
I’m a race traitor and proud of it! Even though my ancestry looks like a map of Europe, and I have trouble finding makeup that’s light enough for my delicate pallor, my BFF’s Puerto Rican, my favourite FWB is Ojibwa, I have a serious crush on a brown girl, and I am never EVER by any means procreating. Of course, the white supremacists would approve of the last bit, since I have a number of genetically determined chronic physical and mental illnesses. I must admit, that is one of my reasons for never breeding; not for the racial aspect of course, but because I think it’s cruel to inflict all the shit I live with on an innocent child. Being a little kid who ended up in the hospital from a common cold was awful, and I could not risk my hypothetical child going through that.
I’ve left the procreation to my sister and her hubby, and they’re doing wonderfully at it. Their three week old daughter, my precious nieceling, is, of course, the most beautiful, perfect baby in the world, (as any proud auntie would say!), and her big sister is the cleverest three year old I’ve ever met! Like I said, I’m a proud auntie, and I love those little girls to adorable bits. I don’t think the racists would approve of them and their white kiddies, though. Not with all the years that my sister was the primary breadwinner in the family, and how her awesome hubby totally pulls his weight, and often more, around the house. Or how my older niece doesn’t give a crap what colour skin her playmates have, (nobody’s even bothered explaining the idea of “race” to her), and wants to be either an NHL goalie, a construction worker, a rock star, or the Queen. Not a princess like other girls, but the Queen, “because everybody has to do what she says!” What an awesome kid.
@skye
uh. Can we stop doing the sane = right and crazy = offensively wrong thing…
(I mean, I almost let it pass cuz I don’t always have time for this shit, but you did it *twice* in your comment, so it seemed less like a slip and more intentional)
@michelle
I hope therapy works for you too.
Silly question, are you in the US? straight out of pocket for therapy seems like a USIan thing.
I think most fat people aren’t just lazy. Lots of people using scooters have pain/invisible illnesses. Though it shouldn’t matter either way. the whole attitude towards fat people + scooters seems like fatophobia doubled with ableism, to me, if that makes sense.
OT, but I haaattteee omniscient POV. it’s just a personal preference.
Yay for other mamother writers 😀 I’d like to write, and I used to, but my depression flared up biiiggggg and I haven’t been able to continue often 🙁
Oooh, all the talk of representation in the media has left me with a comment and a question.
Comment: I was so glad to see R.J. Mitte playing Walt Jr. in Breaking Bad! Imagine – an actor with cerebral palsy playing a character with cerebral palsy! Because his CP is milder than his character’s, he actually quit his therapy while they were filming, and practiced for months walking with crutches, so he could get it just right. Now that’s commitment! I’m also glad to have spotted him in a number of modelling gigs since then, too. He’s a bit young for me, but he’s a real cutie, too, and I like seeing a guy with a disability being presented as sexy.
Question: For all the writers here, I’ve been on and off working on a graphic novel set in a fantasy version of feudal Japan. I’ve been researching my butt off, but still worry about cultural appropriation. Is it even possible for a white girl to pull this off?
I know what you mean – I’ve been going through the same thing. There are so many things I want to write on my journal, FemBorg, etc. but I’m just so lacking in confidence these days. (Although in this case the writing is a bit different since I only write non-fiction stuff.)
BTW, does anyone know why my user name for this site keeps being replaced with the ID I used for my avatar, simply because all the names I wanted were taken?
Many thanks, in advance.
mine switches back to my gravatar thingie sometimes. idk why.(or if it’s the same thing even)
@Ally
Dang, that sucks.
@winter walker
I don’t know, sorry. :/
@ Winter Walker
I think you should try. I don’t know how much harder it is to revise a graphic novel vs a text only novel, but I would suggest being open to criticism (Hey, XYZ is offensive!) and being willing to go back and change/fix XYZ. And never stop doing research even once you’ve started writing.
Cultural appropriation is a big concern and a reasonable critique of media (even media that gets representation mostly right) because it often happens that a story told by a dominant group gets praise while the same story told by a marginalized group gets ignored.
If you are working in a mostly fictional setting and/or representing things accurately (ie, not white washing or overly romanticized) though, it is less of a concern. Still, expect criticism and learn from it.
I also like stories from feudal Japan, so I would like to read it ;D
Am i banned here?
Do you have a word limit on posts?
Ugh. This dood is icky and racist and simply horrible, as David and others have rightly pointed out, but also confusing: as a white-passing Latina (my grandmother’s family’s mostly conquistador-derived Spaniard, so blue eyes and pale skin come with the territory) am I a race-traitor for eschewing reproduction, or for tying up the reproductive potential of my actually European-derived properly-white mate? I’m sooo confused! Since I’m feeemale I know I’m wrong automatically, but the MRM folk must make it clear exactly how I am wronging them so I can feel properly chastised!
Summary – I can’t even keep track of what the bigots are specifically complaining about anymore outside the fact people that are not exactly them exist.
Upside – in my quest to be as absolutely offensive as possible to said bigots it seems I invariably win! 😀
There is a mythos, almost an obligatory tradition, carried on in many Southern families that they have ‘Indian blood’. The actual most recent generational histories and their surnames are momentarily abandoned in favor of the casual and brief delight during relaxed conversations of discussing some “Cherokee grandmother’. This can be challenging to listen to, to put it mildly (especially for Native Americans whose families were ruined and weakened during the genocide that went on against them).
I’d had my fill of it in my own family who as a result of divorce and then total disconnect from the ex’s family line, drawled on about being ‘almost half-blooded’ and how it made her pasty butt ‘accessible to’ Native culture and recognition.. “Other than family tradition, what is the proof?”, I asked. She’d made the mistake, frankly because it was passed on to her by her mother and she never questioned it, of pulling out Ye Olde Tintype.
There, alone, looking back at us both was the weathered face of a woman with high cheek bones and two long, black braids.
Native American. Of course, right?
Oh so wrong. She was, in fact, an immigrant from Ireland. Braids such as hers at that time were quite common. When I started to explain how frequently this mistake is made by many white families, boy did she bristle! The cogs in her mind spun me as a party crasher in her status as ‘mostly white ya’ll, of course, but granny was a ‘Cherokee princess’. It’s amazing how many folks believe this stuff, but one wonders,”Why? Why do you almost need to believe you’re a ‘little Indian’?”. These same people wouldn’t dare to claim some African, (another slightly vague title in the states), ‘princess’ in their family tree even when their families actually once owned and lived with African-Americans! It’s like,”Wait, there’s ZERO evidence for ANY Native American blood in your family except a tintype and oral tradition, and none of you walked the Trail of Tears, and none of you have proof of marriage to or having lived inside any tribe, any where and you couldn’t navigate your way to the nearest reservation sans Google Maps….but you’re “1/4…1/2″ ‘Indian’?!” LOL
I guess it’s like Heinlen’s character, Lazarus Long, said about the little lizard boasting of having a T-Rex in his family tree. I mostly tried to ignore it and still try but it’s an affront to everything so many tribes have endured. An absolute wipe out of their people and then some white person thinks it’s quaint or proper to claim to be ‘Indian’.