Here’s a horrible comment from Reddit’s always horrible White Rights subreddit that reveals some of the ways that the central ideas and obsessions of the manosphere are oozing their way into the thinking, such as it is, of the racist right. Birds of a feather flock together, and I guess the same is true of hateful shitheads.
What’s interesting to me is how easily Mr. Saturnine83 here is able to take the traditional racist paranoia about white women not popping out enough white babies to keep the white race going and make the whole “problem” about stuck-up ladies who won’t date him decent white men. For those filling out bingo cards, note the references to”disposible” men and “involuntary celibacy.”
Oh, we have no doubt you could go on and on endlessly. Guys like you always can.
If you’re interested in exploring further connections between “Men’s Rights” and “White Rights,” check out the MRMorWhiteRights subreddit, which tracks this stuff in an entertaining way, and which is where I found the link to Saturnine83’s little screed.
mm sorry, and hospital mall wheelchair is really just the stuff sometimes used to talk about wheelchairs that are just “standard” or the cheapest kind you can buy without it being a transport* chair. (because they’re normally in hospitals and malls). just like this. it can be pushed w/ your hands or by someone but it could be pretty uncomfy for long term use.
*transports what i guessed you meant by collapsible but i’m not sure if i interperted your meaning correctly sorry .
@kittehserf: Love the new posts! Louis’s dry sense of humor always makes me smile. ”Someone’s got a problem with my run-on sentences? Too bad!” Bam! Like a boss.
@LBT: Thanks for the advice! My world does indeed have its own branches of bigotry, but a lot of it is allegorical. People with an affinity for magic (which is not as flashy and impressive as in many other fantasy settings) are frequently preceived as either dangerous and evil or saintly and wise, even fetishized in some places, but rarely seen as full people with their own thoughts and agendas. Also, the fantasy racism against non-humans is pretty bad. But I’m still a bit on the fence on how to deal with real-life bigotries.
Although now I’m a bit annoyed that you introduced me to an interesting webcomic that I just have to start binge reading on the spot. To quote a character in another webcomic: ”Dammit, I had shit I was supposed to do today.”
http://thepunchlineismachismo.com/archives/comic/this-weeks-comic-is-about-why-this-weeks-comic-is-late
@Michelle C Young: Loved your story! That was one of the intentions I had, to show how stuff like sexism and racism are in no way inherent to human beings. I actually had plans on acknowledging the existence of, say, sexism, but in such a way as to show that the bigots are really in the minority in this world. Heck, I had even plans on slipping in a sort of a medieval dudebro subculture. I had a scene set in a tavern where one of the dudebros was trying to chat up a male POV character after his female friend left in a hurry (magic stuff was happening, and she needed privacy) where the dialogue was to go something like this:
”Pfft, females, right?”
”Excuse me?”
”Just saying… can’t live with them, can’t live without them.”
*Confused look*
”Whatever set her off this time?”
”I don’t know. She didn’t tell me.”
”Right, the typical ‘nothing’s wrong!’ and then they stay mad at you for weeks. Such emotional,hysterical creatures.”
”What the Aiedar are you babbling about?”
”You know, women. If it wasn’t for the sex…”
”We’re not having sex.”
”Yeah, I can see that, with her being such a revolting pile of…”
”EXCUSE ME?”
And then things just sort of escalate from there. The point was to show how utterly alien the mindset is to someone who has not been exposed to misogyny while growing up. The ”women are/should be X” argument really doesn’t work if the context of gender essentialism is not present, so the POV character didn’t catch on to the generalization part, and only heard the dudero insulting his friend.
@Fade: Another world/character builder! Yay! 60 minor characters is pretty goddamn impressive.
When coming up with my setting, I wrote backstories for more than 30 minor characters who I still haven’t figured out how to incorporate into the story. Don’t get me started on the holy scriptures of the setting’s religions. Seriously, who writes close to thirteen pages of made-up religious mythology that ze’s probably not going to use in any part of the story anyway?
Just some general ranting:
I do wonder if my setting is a bit too utopian, even if it does have its own problems. I suppose I’ve seen too many of the arguments in the vein of ”dragons and trolls and magic in a fantasy world is fine, but having black people who are not slaves or women as knights is totes unrealistic”, and wanted to imagine a world where the medieval cliches of MRA fantasyland are not only invalid, but downright ridiculous.
Incidentally, I’ve been planning on turning my story into graphic form (a webcomic or the like) since I love the visual aspect and spend lots of time imagining how the world and the characters look like anyway, but I have no idea how long it would me take both to tell the story and to draw it. So we’ll see.
Love reading about other writers’ stuff, btw!
@Anarchonist
::highfive wanna-be webcomic artists:: 😀 I’ve been planning to do one, mostly cuz writing stresses me out when depressed and drawing relaxes me.
Small note, not for you, but in general: one of the things to keep in mind, if doing ‘world where people aren’t X-ist’ is actually having a decent number of characters, and in positions of power. Like, I can’t stand the ‘place without sexism’ in fiction when the writers also don’t put women in positions of power, and through out the story. It’s more of lip-service to the idea, instead of actually exectuing it. If that makes sense.
@Fade – Just cutting in a bit here – my grandfather is entirely paralyzed on his right side, making a classic wheelchair impossible, so until recently he had a scooter. There is a rather expensive lift/motorized ramp kind of thing that is attached to the back of one’s car by a mechanic which he used to transport it, although it’s quite an effort to operate and I imagine if one is confined to a chair you would need a manual chair to use while attaching the scooter to the lift (grandpa always had me and grandma load him into the car and then do it, so help works too). Anyway, that’s one solution; I’ve never seen or heard of anyone actually loading a scooter into a car, but that doesn’t mean it’s impossible.
The world building talk reminds me of my last D&D campaign. Eight years of an all-gay group. I threw many different societal systems at them, and they handled them all. Now that I look back on it, there were many women NPCs of significance – just worked out that way.
@robert
So jealous of your all gay group 😀 I’d love to do that, but with queer ladies.
@Marie: I understand perfectly what you’re saying, and it pisses me off, too! I hate it when fantasy writers are all like “Yeah, men and women are totes equal in my setting! Now watch how women are clearly treated as inferior, how one-sided sexual harassment is a thing, how women are expected to stay in certain roles that are somehow considered weaker, how female adventurers are expected to give up adventuring and stay at home once they’re married and have kids while the men are free to come and go as they choose etc.”
Example: I love the Baldur’s Gate CRPG series, which takes place in the D&D Forgotten Realms setting. The gender description for the character creation basically says that gender is purely an aesthetic choice; men and women can both excel in whatever class they choose. I loved the idea. Later, a friend recommended R.A. Salvatore’s Drizzt Do’Urden books that take place in the same universe. I picked them up and was, frankly, appalled at how deep the sexism actually runs. Men and women as equals my butt. Might have been just an individual writer’s choices, but still, blargh.
So yeah, agree with you. One of the, if not the most important POV character is a high-ranking female priest, and one of my major supporting characters is a WoC in a leading position in the human defensive forces (yes, I did write that; as opposed to the troll defensive forces, I guess), who are part of the reason why I’ve given this so much thought. I just don’t like the idea of them having to prove themselves over and over again to show that they’re just as capable as their (white) male counterparts.
@Robert: That sounds awesome! Please share some campaign stories sometime, I’d love to read them!
That fold-up chair was what I was thinking, yeah. I don’t need it, now, but it’s good to know there are options for backup mobility, for those who do.
@Fade –
To be fair, all the rentals at WDW look alike, and it was after dinner, so it was dark. People go up to the gathering of chairs, and look for theirs. You get a label with your name on it, but it’s easy enough to grab the wrong one. It happens pretty often, I think. Each time I go, I see more chairs and scooters, as more and more people refuse to let mobility options stop them from going out and living. It’s becoming more socially acceptable. We ARE making progress in general acceptance.
As for protecting your chair or scooter, like I said, if you decorate yours a little, people won’t grab it by mistake. Someone MIGHT take it on purpose, but that’s pretty rare, because most people think like you and me about not taking away someone else’s mobility device.
If I ever go back, I will bring battery-operated Christmas lights (they worked really well, especially in the dark, because the people in the crowd actually shifted out of the way to look), and at least one balloon that stays on the chair at all times (except at Animal Kingdom). Not only does it discourage accidental taking of my device, but it also makes it easy for me to find it quickly amongst the loads of them there, and it’s pretty, to boot.
I have to say, I only recall ONE stink-eye moment at WDW, over the course of a week, and it being the most crowded time of the year. The biggest problem we had was the crowds, and too many people crossing in front of us without looking first.
One time, I was feeling pretty good. Remarkably, I felt less pain at WDW than I do at home, probably because of just feeling so darned HAPPY! Anyway, I was walking and Mom was scooting (we would switch off, according to who needed it most). It was really crowded, and Mom was feeling bad, because she almost hit someone who literally stepped right in front of her. So, I decided to be pro-active. I walked in front of her, waving my arms, and shouting “Crazy person, coming through!” People cleared a path, quickly.
I am apologizing now, for the use of that “crazy” adjective to describe myself, because I do not have a mental illness, and I wasn’t actually trying to act crazy. I was waving my arms to get the proper distance. At the time, I didn’t realize how hurtful it is to misuse labels about mental illness. It was quite effective, because people wanted to avoid anyone “crazy,” but that’s not an excuse. Ugh. So, I will never use that method again. If I need to clear a path, I’ll wave my arms, and yell “Scooter coming through!”
BTW, thanks David, for putting that warning about mental illness labels in your welcome package. I hadn’t thought of it, before. Despite the fact that my Grandma was mentally ill, I never thought of it from HER point of view.
This site is so educational, and I love it! And I thank my parents for teaching me early how to accept correction, in love. I just wish I’d learned about feminism decades ago. How much I missed, for so long!
Thank you so much, David, for all your hard work, and Mamotheers, for all that you teach me.
Oh, speaking of accessibility at WDW (because I’m just feeling so “Happiest Place on Earth” today), I was a really happy to see the variety of sinks in the restrooms there. Not only did they have sinks for wheelchair access, they also had small, low-to-the-ground sinks for children to use. I had never seen anything like that before, and I was just squeeing about it, when I first saw them. Not only are they cute, but they enable *anyone* to take their little ones to the parks. You see, I have had times when I was out with my little nephew, and took him to the bathroom, and it was a real struggle to get his hands washed, because I’d have to lift him up to reach the sink, and it HURT. I’m glad he’s grown enough to reach, by himself, now, and all I have to do is watch him and remind him. My lifting days are over, with him. But if there were those child-sinks in all public restrooms, people who can’t lift their little ones without pain would be soooooo much happier, and the kids would be so much cleaner, too!
Also, most of the seating is wide enough, and fat-friendly, and if the standard seating isn’t enough, you can usually get accommodation. They really go out of their way to make everyone feel accepted and welcome, and happy.
And, I read a wonderful story from a woman with dietary needs. I think she was gluten intolerant? I don’t recall exactly, but she needed special food options. Now, if you make reservations in advance, all the restaurants there will allow you to call in advance to place special orders. But this story is different. This story entails a family walking past the restaurant and seeing that it was not crowded. The timing was just right, and they were actually able to be seated, without a reservation.
The mother looked at the menu, and saw all sorts of yummy options that made her mouth water. When the waiter came, she asked which options on the menu she could actually EAT. “I have X dietary issue, and so I need something that is X-free.”
The waiter smiled, and said that everything on the menu was available.
She was confused. Surely not. There were things on here that were surely made with X, as a standard ingredient. This was not a health-food restaurant.
The waiter smiled, and called out the chef, who then personally assured her that their menu was designed in such a way that EVERYTHING on it could be made X-free. She could literally choose anything on that menu and be safe.
She burst into tears, and so did I when I read that story.
Yes, there are issues, but things like this just make me feel so hopeful and happy. I just had to share that.
Things like that story, the restrooms, the easy accommodations I have experienced with my own mobility issues, are what keep me planning trips to WDW. I hope to go again for my 45th birthday, if I can manage the funding. I have lots of happy memories there with my family, from when we lived in Florida, and I want to have more. In fact, I told my family that when I die, I want to be cremated, and have some of my ashes scattered at WDW, because I’ve had such happy memories there.
Now, if we can just get people to rave about accessibility and accommodations at all the other places in the world! It really wouldn’t take too much to re-tool the restrooms at the local mall, would it? Really? Please?
OK, to be fair, I haven’t visited my local mall in years. Maybe they have made improvements, but I didn’t hear about them, nor discovered from my own visits. I’ve avoided the place. I know the local movie theater is still desperately in need of better restrooms. They have the obligatory stall, but … Let’s just say I only go there if I absolutely MUST see the movie on the big screen, and can’t wait for video. That is to say, when “The Hobbit” is playing. Well, any movie set in New Zealand, really. GORGEOUS!
I love my town, but it’s not exactly handicap-friendly. Going to the courthouse is not happy-fun-time.
So, I’m almost back to my regular level of pain. Last night, though, I played with my nephew. It was loads of fun, but all the bending and stretching mean that … I’m gonna have to take another pain pill. Argh.
I think I’ll go plan my dream vacation – blue skies, and money’s not a factor! I love dreaming.
Happy day, y’all. I’m off for real.
RE: Michelle
So, you have Boing-Boing writing sessions, too?
Yeah, though often they tend to be less pleasant than it sounds. I’m on a strict four-to-six hours of work a day regimen, with a break every hour, and I am FORBIDDEN to break that agreement.
I’d love to see your husband handle them. That sounds fun.
I made a comic about it!
RE: Fade
also, you mentioned you do comics. do you mind telling me what you do?
I’m so glad you asked! *eyebrow waggle* I do educational mental health and autobio comics, mostly about multiplicity! You can read basically all of them for free here, or if you want paper copies, you can buy them here!
RE: Anarchonist
Although now I’m a bit annoyed that you introduced me to an interesting webcomic that I just have to start binge reading on the spot.
I’m glad. I only read about three webcomics (and one of them just ended, boo) and Manly Guys Doing Manly Things is one of them. I love, love, LOVE O Human Star. Basically, all robot media can go home now; between O Human Star, the I, Robot movie, and the Kung Fu Robots poetry series, I am COVERED.
I do wonder if my setting is a bit too utopian,
Don’t worry about it, seriously. I write a series that straddles our world (roughly), the neurocomputer world, and a backwater rural area where the primary life forms are reptiles and insects. A lot of terrible things happen, so I write lots of happy fluff too about shit like cultural misunderstanding of baths.
My oldest informed me that she hears the “N” word at least 3 to 5 times a day at the local high school. She says they yell it. They think it’s funny. (She does not.)
>.<
She says it's usually white kids trying to mimic what they think black kids sound like. As in, the form of the word that ends in "a". But once, she said she heard a kids call one of her friends of color that word and it clearly wrecked his day. The white boy kept saying, "I'm only joking" as if that made it OK.
They didn't do that back in my day. White kids listened to NWA and Public Enemy, but they did not yell that shit out in the halls. We had plenty of homophobes, misogyny and other assorted crap to deal with, but we didn't have to hear that.
AAAAAAAAAAaaarrrrrrrrrrggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhh!
One step forward, two steps back still gets us ahead, I guess. But still, this is disappointing.
I wish she'd told me sooner.
@LBT
Oh, more O Human Star fans!!! 😀 I think I got hooked on it when you mentioned it on your tumblr (IIRC it was you). I love it.
@lbt
thank you very much for the links! I bookmarked them so that when i have brainpower i can sort through and see which ones i want to read (or read first if i wind up liking a bunch XD)
RE: Marie and Fade
I am always, ALWAYS okay with recommending awesome robot stuff. The only thing I like more than robots are golems!
I’m not saying there was no racism (oh boy howdy there was racism) but it wasn’t just shouted out in the halls.
Where are the teachers?
Grrrrr…..
@Anarchonist – I love that bar scene!
Regarding turning the fantasy conventions on their heads, when I was a teenager, I rewrote the Rumplestiltskin story so that the miller’s daughter eloped with him! After all, why would she want to marry that awful king who makes ridiculous demands, promises freedom if you meet them, and then says, “Nawww, I’m just gonna give you another ridiculous demand/ultimatum, instead.” Total abuser-dude, and my heroine would not have him! Meanwhile, Rumplestiltskin not only saved her life, but chatting with her, as he spun, and they got to know each other, and fall in love. So, she wouldn’t so much “give” him her firstborn child as “bear” him her firstborn child, and all their children, thereafter.
Even decades before I understood feminism, I was a feminist, at heart. My mother had me read “Fascinating Womanhood,” and hooooo, boy! I never could quite explain what was wrong. It just felt awful.
Oh, and for extra fun-time, read “Man of Steel and Velvet” by FW’s author’s husband. Yeah, they teamed up for this.
BTW, my dream WDW vacation would cost about $500,000. Granted, my dream involves other people going with me, so that multiplies the costs, but as long as I’m dreaming, I want to go BIG.
Not gonna happen, but it’s fun to plot it out. And they do have horsey-rides!
@lea
Idk. You’d figure they’d have to be doing something if the kids were using slurs 🙁 But I can’t compare much from my highschool because I was reeaally uneducated about racism and white privilege when I went.
@Marie
Oh, exactly! You can’t just tell it. You must show it. The only time I’d support that kind of scenario is if you’re using it to illustrate the point, and you have your character asking about how people can justify the reality, while spouting off their “But we’re really not X-ist” statements.
Cognitive dissonance can be fun to write, but I hate living it.
@michelle
😛 I approve of re-writing fairy tales.
Cognitive dissonance-yup. THough lots of things are fun to write that would be not fun to live. I’m going to admit, one of my stranger writing experiences was designing a distopia and realizing it had a depressingly large number of similarities to america today.
@chimisaur – If you have the proper set-up, you can load a scooter into a van or bus. However, for safety, the person in the scooter should then transfer to a regular seat for the duration of the trip.
Inter-WDW buses are equipped for just that. But it requires a large vehicle, so a car wouldn’t work.
@Robert – I love RPGs. When I was a kid, my siblings and I discovered D&D, and we loved it. Then, someone decided that a kid who played D&D committed suicide BECAUSE of D&D, and we kids were forbidden to play it. What a loss!
Eventually, we got back into it, as adults, especially with the computer-adventure options, like Baldur’s Gate and Neverwinter Nights. But nothing really beats the table-top games, with a real Game Master who can mix things up and pull some real sneakies, and stuff. My brother is a fantastic GM. In fact, he’s the best I’ve ever had. I have GMed a time or three, but I don’t have the knack for it that he does.
But he’s no computer. Sometimes, it it fits the story, or is just plain fun for the whole group, he’ll set the rules to the side for a while, and free-style it. It’s loads of fun, but when we were play-testing a rules system I had devised, in hopes of creating a computer game, we realized that he can’t play-test as a computer. It’s a fun rules-set, though, so table-top might be the way to go for it.
I rewrote Beauty and the Beast to be about queer women once! 😀 It was awesome.
@LBT
::Squees::
I would read the shit out of that. Part of that may be me dying for actual queer lady representation though.
@Anarchonist – Argh. Don’t read the Forgotten Realms books. Especially do not read the novelizations of Baldur’s Gate, which were actually written BEFORE the game was finalized, so they even get the story wrong.
And what they do with Jaheira. OMG, HATE.
The Baldur’s Gate computer games are great. I’m so glad they re-released them and enhanced them. I LOVE BG!
But don’t read the books. Blergh.
RE: Marie
Ta-da! Uh, warning though, it’s porn, because that was the theme of the writeathon that time.
@LBT – LOL! Priorities. I love it!