@hrovitnir
It sucks that you are surrounded by people like that 🙁
I have a similar problem with a woman I work with. She is a walking MRA stereotype saying all the things MRAs say women say and generalising them to all women. And she has absolutely no awareness of there being anything wrong with her attitude. It’s very frustrating to listen to.
Kim – gah, my sister and BiL are like that with racism. Only good thing I can say is that they will generally avoid the topic when I’m there, ‘cos they know our politics and views on these things are poles apart.
Kim
10 years ago
sorry Kitteh, I don’t understand – I can’t picture what the equivalent for racism would look like…
Kim
10 years ago
to clarify, today she was saying how a guy should pay for dinner always, and how she’s ok with not being respected to get a free dinner, and how he might get some ‘dessert’ in return. And has made comments before about why would women be with a guy like that – oh, he might be rich etc.
Kim
10 years ago
gah, the words – they taunt me. “women be with a guy like that” was separate to my first sentence. Basically saying that she’d be with a guy she didn’t like if he were rich, and implying all women are the same way.
It wasn’t so much a direct comparison, Kim (that would mean internalised racism on sister and BiL’s part), just the “I am so sick of listening to this shit” part of it. Sorry, didn’t make that clear at all!
Fair enough kitteh. Glad you’ve got them to be quiet around you at least. I tried the “just don’t say it where I can hear” and “it’s not appropriate for the workplace” but the kind of sexism/gender policing they do is so commonplace it’s me who looks like the rude one for mentioning it, you know what I mean?
Oh yeah, she’s really young (she still counts by MRA standards) but my older co-worker chipped in with she expects men to pay too “maybe she’s just old-fashioned”. Not that there is anything wrong with expecting men to pay if that’s the kind of relationship dynamic you want – it’s just frustrating how it’s just one more little thing perpetuating negative attitudes in society.
NB: after the stress of today I bought some strawberries and lime and made myself that infusion drink I mentioned in the dive bar thread. It was really good, but I am now somewhat under the influence.
Does anyone else ever call anyone out for being this kind of stereotype? Or should everyone be allowed to be a stereotype if they want, without criticism, even if it does reinforce negative opinions by outsiders?
I don’t know any women who fit the sexist stereotypes, let alone defend them. I did call out my former boss when he’d call someone obnoxious a b*tch or cow or whatever. Dunno if it sank in – probably not – but he didn’t get defensive about it, at any rate.
I do say something to Mum if she lets something sexist or homophobic slip. It’ll be low-level stuff and doesn’t happen often.
That could be partly because we’re more likely to be talking about the kitties than anything else, of course. 😛
I’m not sure that’s the case, even if it seems like it. I think sometimes lots of folks are pretty cool.
I used to be a very cynical person who believed that people sucked a lot, not just a little.
For the last decade I’ve been part of a volunteer fire department.
About 87% of all firefighters in the United States are volunteer. They do that thing, where they run into burning buildings to save people? For no money. For no reward. Because people need saving.
And sometimes, when everybody in the world seems to suck, that’s an important reminder to me that lots of people, even people who maybe aren’t 100% nice or believe things that are awful are still selfless enough to run into a burning building to save somebody’s life.
I have an opinion and I want to know if it’s unreasonable or oversensitive. I’m not sure how aware people are of entertainment news, but Jonah Hill is currently in a bit of hot water for calling a paparazzi who was stalking him a f – (anti-gay slur.) He apologized profusely and it sounds sincere, but I’m a little annoyed that people are readily giving him a free pass because he was just angry and frustrated at being harassed.
The whole Elliot Rodger thing and the negative reaction to #YesAllWomen and the other conversations women had about misogyny have a lot to do with it.
I’ll just copy paste my comment on Jezebel because I’m lazy.
I think because of the Elliot Rodgers thing I’m feeling inclined to side eye a lot of the people giving Jonah Hill a pass because he was just mad and frustrated. How many whiny dudes came into spaces like to complain we were so mean and man hating for being upset at all the misogyny in our culture and using or discussing the #YesAllWomen thing?
I know the two incidents seem entirely unrelated, but after a week and a half of being told we weren’t allowed to be angry and being falsely accused of hating men, it feels so off to me that everyone is so eager to give a man a pass for a) being angry and b) actually saying something hateful.
Is it just me? Am I being unreasonable to connect these things?
It seems like such a double standard that Jonah Hill is allowed to react with anger at something pretty minor and we’re not allowed to be angry at something major.
titianblue
10 years ago
@WWTH, I think you are being totally reasonable.THere is a clear double standard between the oppressed and oppressor. The oppressed much always appear happy and positive, must never get angry or emotional or frustrated, or those will be taken as signs of weakness or emotional or mental instability. Whereas the oppressing class can shrug off hateful speech as “I was angry” or “I was tired” (don’t ask how many UKIP policiticians used that one in the UK over the past month) and know both that it will be accepted as an excuse and they will not be judged for it.
This whole thing has just gotten to me so much. Not even the shooting itself, although that was upsetting enough. The reaction to it. The threat so many so called male allies made that our anger and out impatience at not all men arguments would cost us their support.
I’m just not having it right now.
Anarchonist
10 years ago
@weirwoodtreehugger: What titianblue said. One way in which privilege makes itself apparent is in the way it makes the privileged seem more sympathetic and human when losing their temper, while a person without said privilege “is perpetuating the image of angry man-hating feminist woman/reverse-racist black person/hetero-hating gay person/cisphobic trans person/whatever” and is therefore just as bad as (if not worse than!) the people they’re criticising. Another way of saying: “Why are you so meeeeaaaan?”
In my experience, there seems to be an “angry and hateful” stereotype for almost every group imaginable, except straight white cis men, who are, naturally, “only human” when getting angry. Apparently nobody else is human.
The whole “he was mentally ill!” crap with ER was just that, I think – when a hateful, privileged person goes too far with his entitlement-born anger, when no apology in the world would cut it even if it was offered, we can just cut said person off and say he never was one of us, he was always part of this other group. Us, we are so plucky and sympathetic and adorably human.
Fuck that noise.
Hope that didn’t come off as mansplainy. Sort of a teal deer way of saying no, I don’t think you’re being unreasonable at all.
I am probably an extrovert, but with social anxiety and massive trust issues. Recently it seems like all of the people I hang out with at school want to air their bigotry and it’s making me feel like I don’t want to get to know anyone off the internet because they’re all just waiting to drop awfulness on me. 🙁
yeah, I’ve been having that problem too in meatspace 🙁
@kim
Does anyone else ever call anyone out for being this kind of stereotype? Or should everyone be allowed to be a stereotype if they want, without criticism, even if it does reinforce negative opinions by outsiders?
Idk. I haven’t had a job in a while. But I know my stepmom had lots of ‘well I’m just oldfashioned’ sayings before she revealed herself to be all around terrible, so the ‘just old fashioned’ thing makes me suspicious.’
I would go with ‘so long as you realize not everyone wants that’ or ‘so long as you don’t excpet everyone else to want what you want’ if that makes sense?
@weirdwoodtreehugger
It seems like such a double standard that Jonah Hill is allowed to react with anger at something pretty minor and we’re not allowed to be angry at something major.
you’re right, it is a double standard. :/ And I don’t think you’re being oversensitive.
The whole “he was mentally ill!” crap with ER was just that, I think – when a hateful, privileged person goes too far with his entitlement-born anger, when no apology in the world would cut it even if it was offered, we can just cut said person off and say he never was one of us, he was always part of this other group. Us, we are so plucky and sympathetic and adorably human.
Yep. I’m encountering this again and again with a friend who keeps saying Rodger was “just a monster.” And I agree that he was monstrous, but it bothers me that people keep treating him like some anomaly instead of a product of a really messed up culture.
Wow, this place has been busy while I was in the middle of the woods without internet for five blissful days.
I’m officially engaged ya’ll! Slipped the question into a ‘big life changes and future’ conversation whilst roasting fresh corn over an open fire. Lol. I was so nervous, but super excited when he said yes!
I have silly pictures from the trip, but first I think I need to go play catch up around here. So many posts, so many trolls, so little time!
The whole “he was mentally ill!” crap with ER was just that, I think – when a hateful, privileged person goes too far with his entitlement-born anger, when no apology in the world would cut it even if it was offered, we can just cut said person off and say he never was one of us, he was always part of this other group. Us, we are so plucky and sympathetic and adorably human.
It was exactly the same thing with Breivik. And if you point out to people going on about how he was “obviously a psycho” that a person can do terrible things without being mentally ill, you always get the response “don’t tell me that you think that’s sane behaviour!” in a tone that indicates that you were defending the behaviour by pointing out that it needn’t be caused by mental illness.
I’m officially engaged ya’ll! Slipped the question into a ‘big life changes and future’ conversation whilst roasting fresh corn over an open fire. Lol. I was so nervous, but super excited when he said yes!
Is that an American thing, like the job is to help you sort and pack or do they move around? When I did it ( and when my sis does ) there was-is chairs. Been the case in every supermarket I’ve seen
It seems to be a thing i’ve noticed wherei go to grocery stores or other places with cashiers. I think there is an option to do it sitting if you are disabled, because they generally have to provide reasonable accommodations for completing work, but i don’t know how you would do it if you have some standing issues but aren’t considered disabled. It would make sense to let people sit down while doing it, rather than being in pain/ exertion.
kittehserf
Also ::fistbumps:: from another person who doesn’t have any away-from-keyboard friends around.
me either. 😛 i used to hate it and think i was weird or a loser, but now I realize, hey that’s the easier way for me to interact and I’m not going to act like my online friends are any less real than meatspace friends just because we can’t talk face to face 🙂
kim
. She is a walking MRA stereotype saying all the things MRAs say women say and generalising them to all women. And she has absolutely no awareness of there being anything wrong with her attitude. It’s very frustrating to listen to.
Now i”m wondering if you’ve ment my stepmom. X| idk if she’d be a walking MRA stereotype, but if you wanted to imagine how she sounds, just imagine the most stereotypical, bigoted republican (USAian) who thinks that they’re somehow not bigoted
to clarify, today she was saying how a guy should pay for dinner always, and how she’s ok with not being respected to get a free dinner, and how he might get some ‘dessert’ in return.
okay, nevermind. stepmom would probably just expect the guy to pay for dinner but do it herself if it comes up, while dissing all of the girls who also expected that while making herself sound like the Ultimate Female Who Is Not Like Those Other Evil Skanks Who Have No Self Respect
WWTH
Is it just me? Am I being unreasonable to connect these things?
it’s not unreasonable. The anger of the privileged is always explained away, but if marginalized people get upset about being second class citizens it’s “hate begets hate” or w/e.
fromafar
I’m officially engaged ya’ll! Slipped the question into a ‘big life changes and future’ conversation whilst roasting fresh corn over an open fire. Lol. I was so nervous, but super excited when he said yes!
I had a really stressful semester during the spring. I decided to take four classes, because two and a half (one was really small) left me bored. But four classes was waaaaaaay too much and i got stressed out all the time. next semester i have down for only three regular sized, so hopefully that will be relaxing
hrovitnir
10 years ago
Yay happy news! Congratulations fromafar. ^_^
@Howard Bannister: heh, that is an excellent example because my first thought is “isn’t it great that you *need* a vast majority of fire fighters to be volunteers? Not cool.”
I do need to find a way to see good things – I know they’re there the same way the bad things are there (in people), but my brain is very focussed on the bad. It’s just exhausting watching pretty kind and open minded people find their niche of hating people/willful ignorance (wrt rape jokes) and wave it about like a flag.
We Hunted The Mammoth
::virtual high fives::
http://youtu.be/R_mZGZ0olzI
@hrovitnir
It sucks that you are surrounded by people like that 🙁
I have a similar problem with a woman I work with. She is a walking MRA stereotype saying all the things MRAs say women say and generalising them to all women. And she has absolutely no awareness of there being anything wrong with her attitude. It’s very frustrating to listen to.
Kim – gah, my sister and BiL are like that with racism. Only good thing I can say is that they will generally avoid the topic when I’m there, ‘cos they know our politics and views on these things are poles apart.
sorry Kitteh, I don’t understand – I can’t picture what the equivalent for racism would look like…
to clarify, today she was saying how a guy should pay for dinner always, and how she’s ok with not being respected to get a free dinner, and how he might get some ‘dessert’ in return. And has made comments before about why would women be with a guy like that – oh, he might be rich etc.
gah, the words – they taunt me. “women be with a guy like that” was separate to my first sentence. Basically saying that she’d be with a guy she didn’t like if he were rich, and implying all women are the same way.
It sure feels like that sometimes. But I do not think so.
It wasn’t so much a direct comparison, Kim (that would mean internalised racism on sister and BiL’s part), just the “I am so sick of listening to this shit” part of it. Sorry, didn’t make that clear at all!
Perfect bit of satire about the disgusting Tony Abbott. (Thank you tigtog for putting the link up on Feministe.)
http://youtu.be/c3IaKVmkXuk
Fair enough kitteh. Glad you’ve got them to be quiet around you at least. I tried the “just don’t say it where I can hear” and “it’s not appropriate for the workplace” but the kind of sexism/gender policing they do is so commonplace it’s me who looks like the rude one for mentioning it, you know what I mean?
Oh yeah, she’s really young (she still counts by MRA standards) but my older co-worker chipped in with she expects men to pay too “maybe she’s just old-fashioned”. Not that there is anything wrong with expecting men to pay if that’s the kind of relationship dynamic you want – it’s just frustrating how it’s just one more little thing perpetuating negative attitudes in society.
NB: after the stress of today I bought some strawberries and lime and made myself that infusion drink I mentioned in the dive bar thread. It was really good, but I am now somewhat under the influence.
Does anyone else ever call anyone out for being this kind of stereotype? Or should everyone be allowed to be a stereotype if they want, without criticism, even if it does reinforce negative opinions by outsiders?
I don’t know any women who fit the sexist stereotypes, let alone defend them. I did call out my former boss when he’d call someone obnoxious a b*tch or cow or whatever. Dunno if it sank in – probably not – but he didn’t get defensive about it, at any rate.
I do say something to Mum if she lets something sexist or homophobic slip. It’ll be low-level stuff and doesn’t happen often.
That could be partly because we’re more likely to be talking about the kitties than anything else, of course. 😛
@Unimaginative
Thank you! It takes a lot of horn polish to get the horns to shine that much.
@hrotvinir:
I’m not sure that’s the case, even if it seems like it. I think sometimes lots of folks are pretty cool.
I used to be a very cynical person who believed that people sucked a lot, not just a little.
For the last decade I’ve been part of a volunteer fire department.
About 87% of all firefighters in the United States are volunteer. They do that thing, where they run into burning buildings to save people? For no money. For no reward. Because people need saving.
And sometimes, when everybody in the world seems to suck, that’s an important reminder to me that lots of people, even people who maybe aren’t 100% nice or believe things that are awful are still selfless enough to run into a burning building to save somebody’s life.
I have an opinion and I want to know if it’s unreasonable or oversensitive. I’m not sure how aware people are of entertainment news, but Jonah Hill is currently in a bit of hot water for calling a paparazzi who was stalking him a f – (anti-gay slur.) He apologized profusely and it sounds sincere, but I’m a little annoyed that people are readily giving him a free pass because he was just angry and frustrated at being harassed.
The whole Elliot Rodger thing and the negative reaction to #YesAllWomen and the other conversations women had about misogyny have a lot to do with it.
I’ll just copy paste my comment on Jezebel because I’m lazy.
Is it just me? Am I being unreasonable to connect these things?
It seems like such a double standard that Jonah Hill is allowed to react with anger at something pretty minor and we’re not allowed to be angry at something major.
@WWTH, I think you are being totally reasonable.THere is a clear double standard between the oppressed and oppressor. The oppressed much always appear happy and positive, must never get angry or emotional or frustrated, or those will be taken as signs of weakness or emotional or mental instability. Whereas the oppressing class can shrug off hateful speech as “I was angry” or “I was tired” (don’t ask how many UKIP policiticians used that one in the UK over the past month) and know both that it will be accepted as an excuse and they will not be judged for it.
Thanks,
This whole thing has just gotten to me so much. Not even the shooting itself, although that was upsetting enough. The reaction to it. The threat so many so called male allies made that our anger and out impatience at not all men arguments would cost us their support.
I’m just not having it right now.
@weirwoodtreehugger: What titianblue said. One way in which privilege makes itself apparent is in the way it makes the privileged seem more sympathetic and human when losing their temper, while a person without said privilege “is perpetuating the image of angry man-hating feminist woman/reverse-racist black person/hetero-hating gay person/cisphobic trans person/whatever” and is therefore just as bad as (if not worse than!) the people they’re criticising. Another way of saying: “Why are you so meeeeaaaan?”
In my experience, there seems to be an “angry and hateful” stereotype for almost every group imaginable, except straight white cis men, who are, naturally, “only human” when getting angry. Apparently nobody else is human.
The whole “he was mentally ill!” crap with ER was just that, I think – when a hateful, privileged person goes too far with his entitlement-born anger, when no apology in the world would cut it even if it was offered, we can just cut said person off and say he never was one of us, he was always part of this other group. Us, we are so plucky and sympathetic and adorably human.
Fuck that noise.
Hope that didn’t come off as mansplainy. Sort of a teal deer way of saying no, I don’t think you’re being unreasonable at all.
@hrovitnir
yeah, I’ve been having that problem too in meatspace 🙁
@kim
Idk. I haven’t had a job in a while. But I know my stepmom had lots of ‘well I’m just oldfashioned’ sayings before she revealed herself to be all around terrible, so the ‘just old fashioned’ thing makes me suspicious.’
I would go with ‘so long as you realize not everyone wants that’ or ‘so long as you don’t excpet everyone else to want what you want’ if that makes sense?
@weirdwoodtreehugger
you’re right, it is a double standard. :/ And I don’t think you’re being oversensitive.
Yep. I’m encountering this again and again with a friend who keeps saying Rodger was “just a monster.” And I agree that he was monstrous, but it bothers me that people keep treating him like some anomaly instead of a product of a really messed up culture.
Wow, this place has been busy while I was in the middle of the woods without internet for five blissful days.
I’m officially engaged ya’ll! Slipped the question into a ‘big life changes and future’ conversation whilst roasting fresh corn over an open fire. Lol. I was so nervous, but super excited when he said yes!
I have silly pictures from the trip, but first I think I need to go play catch up around here. So many posts, so many trolls, so little time!
It was exactly the same thing with Breivik. And if you point out to people going on about how he was “obviously a psycho” that a person can do terrible things without being mentally ill, you always get the response “don’t tell me that you think that’s sane behaviour!” in a tone that indicates that you were defending the behaviour by pointing out that it needn’t be caused by mental illness.
@fromafar
yay! 😀 Congrats
fibinachi
It seems to be a thing i’ve noticed wherei go to grocery stores or other places with cashiers. I think there is an option to do it sitting if you are disabled, because they generally have to provide reasonable accommodations for completing work, but i don’t know how you would do it if you have some standing issues but aren’t considered disabled. It would make sense to let people sit down while doing it, rather than being in pain/ exertion.
kittehserf
me either. 😛 i used to hate it and think i was weird or a loser, but now I realize, hey that’s the easier way for me to interact and I’m not going to act like my online friends are any less real than meatspace friends just because we can’t talk face to face 🙂
kim
Now i”m wondering if you’ve ment my stepmom. X| idk if she’d be a walking MRA stereotype, but if you wanted to imagine how she sounds, just imagine the most stereotypical, bigoted republican (USAian) who thinks that they’re somehow not bigoted
okay, nevermind. stepmom would probably just expect the guy to pay for dinner but do it herself if it comes up, while dissing all of the girls who also expected that while making herself sound like the Ultimate Female Who Is Not Like Those Other Evil Skanks Who Have No Self Respect
WWTH
it’s not unreasonable. The anger of the privileged is always explained away, but if marginalized people get upset about being second class citizens it’s “hate begets hate” or w/e.
fromafar
Congratulations!!
Updates in my life:
I had a really stressful semester during the spring. I decided to take four classes, because two and a half (one was really small) left me bored. But four classes was waaaaaaay too much and i got stressed out all the time. next semester i have down for only three regular sized, so hopefully that will be relaxing
Yay happy news! Congratulations fromafar. ^_^
@Howard Bannister: heh, that is an excellent example because my first thought is “isn’t it great that you *need* a vast majority of fire fighters to be volunteers? Not cool.”
I do need to find a way to see good things – I know they’re there the same way the bad things are there (in people), but my brain is very focussed on the bad. It’s just exhausting watching pretty kind and open minded people find their niche of hating people/willful ignorance (wrt rape jokes) and wave it about like a flag.