So this little screenshot is making the rounds on the internet. It’s from 4chan, so who knows if the guy posting it is sincere. But I’ve seen similar, albeit less histrionic, complaints from other would-be pickup artistes in the past.
Guess what, dude. Some of those women wearing earbuds aren’t even listening to music. They just wear them to avoid creepy dudes like you.
You seem to be under the misapprehension that I need your permission or approval to post or respond to something here. I don’t. Get over it or go elsewhere.
Your assertion that a woman should attend to the needs and safety of the person violating her boundaries FIRST before attending to her own needs, safety or simple desire to be left alone is, quite frankly, bullshit and it deserves to be called out as such.
Did you not read the whole thread? Did you not see all the harassment stories we’ve told? This guy believes that the object of his affection is wrong for the completely innocent act of wearing earbuds. He’s decided that he’s entitled to attention because now is time, after 6 months watching and FB stalking he wants to talk to her. He hasn’t taken her wants or boundaries into account at all. That is creepy. Believing that women should be required to make themselves open to approach is creepy.
Again, did you read the thread? We all have experiences with harassment and we all know what it looks like. It is actually not difficult to tell the difference between someone in distress or someone disabled who doesn’t understand boundaries and someone who is invading space.
BTW, it’s pretty ableist to assume that people with intellectual disabilities are incapable of learning how to behave in public. The are a ton of disabled people out there who have worked really hard to be able to live independent lives. They know that something like ripping out earbuds is not acceptable. My autistic brother who has an IQ barely above the “mentally retarded” (I hate that word, but in this case it’s meant technically) and he very polite and respectful. He would never put his hands on a stranger or a stranger’s property. In fact, I have never felt harassed or threatened by any disabled person. I’ve met people with intellectual disabilities on public transit who are very chatty, but they are always clearly harmless. Like I said, we women (and those who present as female) know the difference.
Did you not read the whole thread? Did you not see all the harassment stories we’ve told? This guy believes that the object of his affection is wrong for the completely innocent act of wearing earbuds. He’s decided that he’s entitled to attention because now is time, after 6 months watching and FB stalking he wants to talk to her. He hasn’t taken her wants or boundaries into account at all. That is creepy. Believing that women should be required to make themselves open to approach is creepy.
Again, did you read the thread? We all have experiences with harassment and we all know what it looks like. It is actually not difficult to tell the difference between someone in distress or someone disabled who doesn’t understand boundaries and someone who is invading space.
BTW, it’s pretty ableist to assume that people with intellectual disabilities are incapable of learning how to behave in public. The are a ton of disabled people out there who have worked really hard to be able to live independent lives. They know that something like ripping out earbuds is not acceptable. My autistic brother who has an IQ barely above the “mentally re*****d” (I hate that word, but in this case it’s meant technically)* and he very polite and respectful. He would never put his hands on a stranger or a stranger’s property. In fact, I have never felt harassed or threatened by any disabled person. I’ve met people with intellectual disabilities on public transit who are very chatty, but they are always clearly harmless. Like I said, we women (and those who present as female) know the difference.
Sorry to accidentally send that to moderation David. You can disregard the first one.
I refuse to excuse someone’s shitty behavior because of Downs or another social disorder. I have a social disorder (an NLD to be exact) and I have worked around it and have learned other people’s boundaries. It’s not easy because it isn’t something I naturally know how to do, but I do it. A social disorder is not an excuse to behave badly (as an adult) and while people should be aware of social disorders and how it can affect a person’s social skills, women shouldn’t have to work around men “just in case he has Downs or Aspergers.”
I care of mental and social disorders and advocate for people who, like me, have to live with the limitations they can give a person, but I also understand personal responsibility and that people have the right to feel safe.
Exactly. This is a lot like the alcohol and consent conversation that encourages apologist to try and muddy the waters and make consent seem like a complex issue.
Harassment is wrong. It just is. It isn’t complicated. Don’t touch people or their stuff unless you’ve been invited to. Don’t expect anyone to feel OK with being harassed.
Ken,
First, my youngest sister has severe autism and she knows perfectly well to leave other people alone in public. You insult her and people like her by assuming that the only people who would be intrusive, entitled assholes towards women would be people with mental disabilities. Second, it’s not my job to soothe someone’s feelings because there’s a chance he might have a mental disability. It’s my job to see to my own personal safety first.
Sorry, weirwood, he wasn’t actually talking to you, so you aren’t allowed to respond to his posts! Also, he was making a very specific comment about a very particular counterfactual that he would prefer to use because it allows him to mansplain why we are all arrogantly DOING IT WRONG. It’s not a perfect world, after all!
David, if you are looking for a new blog topic under the misandry umbrella (because why not), you may explore reactions of the manosphere to the mass kidnapping of the Nigerian school girls.
Somehow the impulse to come to their aid is both misandry and proof that there is no misogyny around us.
Here are some examples:
http://www.justfourguys.com/bringbackourgirls-how-boko-haram-puts-the-american-sistahoods-first-world-problems-into-proper-perspective/
http://dalrock.wordpress.com/2014/05/10/poutyface/
As always, the commentariat is even more, er, informative than the original posts.
Ken, if someone violates your personal space to the degreee of literally ripping your earbuds out in order to talk to you, I suppose there’s a theoretical possibility that there’s some innocent explanation of why they somehow don’t understand that this is not ok, but there’s also a chance that they’re a very dangerous person who could do you some harm. In that situation, it’s entirely reasonable for the person being harassed to take steps to ensure their own safety before they do anything else. How they are supposed to “check” if the person is actually innocent and safe and just confused before doing this I don’t know.
If someone pulled a knife out on public transportation I would do what I had to do to keep myself safe; I wouldn’t check first to see if this was a person who for some reason thought it was ok to whittle on the bus.
Emma, thanks for the links.
As the saying goes, “When you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras.”
If you don’t want to come across as a threat, then quit acting in ways consistent with being a threat. If you show threatening behavior, you get treated like a threat.
It’s far better for a woman to falsely consider a guy to be threatening, than to falsely consider a threat to be safe. That’s inconvenient for the guy, but it’s not his life potentially at stake. Recognize that.
All praise the earbud! The most useful invention since the wheel.
On the “what if he’s disabled” conversation – are we really doing this again? Really? Can’t we just refer Ken over to one of the many threads about this (there are several on Scalzi’s blog) and call it a day?
I quite enjoy playing dumb in a way that’s really annoying but impossible to call out as being rude when dudes harass me in public. If they’re throwing out the innuendos, pretend you don’t understand what they’re getting at and make them explain. Make sure that everyone around you is aware of this conversation, give the harasser the opportunity to make his creepiness crystal clear, and enjoy his frustration as he realizes that not only is he not upsetting you, he’s making a complete ass of himself in public. Obviously it takes a certain personality to pull this off, but if you can it sure is fun!
Speaking of “really?” (points up), it’s very useful when accompanied by the raised eyebrows of scorn. Really? You just told me that you’d like me to lick your balls in the middle of a crowded train? Really?
(Which was my response when some asshole on a plane did yank my earbuds out, btw. And then he put one of them in his own ear, because apparently he was raised by the same poo-flinging howler monkeys that often pop up to troll here. )
I’m at a fucking loss for words here. What the hell?
So let me get this right. A man respects an obvious social que that a woman wishes to be left alone, but is frustrated by the obliquity of this social que making it very difficult to find women to approach. So I’m not sure where the woman hate is here. Is it in respecting social ques or a man daring to express an emotion?
Ken is clearly unteachable, but for any lurkers who may be reading along – the idea that women habitually confuse men who’re just lacking in social skills with predators is sexist bullshit. Women are actually rather good at distinguishing threatening behavior from non-threatening behavior, for the same reasons that any other group that’s habitually preyed upon is. We can tell the difference because being able to tell the difference is vital to our safety. We’re not going around yelling at sad, confused disabled boys who just tapped us on the arm because they wanted directions to the library. Stop trying to use women’s compassion for the men who actually do have problems with social interaction as a cover for predatory behavior.
@ Ally
I’m a germphobe, too, so in addition to “really?” I was also thinking “ew, now I need to throw those away and get new earbuds”.
AAAAACCCKKKK! If someone put my earbud in their ear, never mind pepper spray or groin kicks, I’d just vomit on them uncontrollably! EWWW!
On the subject of potentially reachable folks, I happened across an interesting resource the other day while reading a post over at Skeptical Science. They have developed a handbook on debunking and refuting junk claims that is really practical and helpful, detailing the cognitive processes that make debunking such a challenge and giving strategies for getting around them.
http://www.skepticalscience.com/Debunking-Handbook-now-freely-available-download.html
@inurashii
That last sentece sounds a lot like a threat, doesn’t it, NiceGuyTM?
GNL is the Deliberately Obtuse poster child.
Oh, genderneutrallanguage, you have a truly awe-inspiring way of missing the fucking point.
I kind of want to know what a que is. Presumably it’s some form of gender neutral language indicating that the user is an awful person.
I assumed it was the Spanish for “What?” That’s my usual reaction to anything GNL posts.
Also, “obliquity” seems to be an odd word choice. I don’t think gender neutral language has to be language that defies all sense, but that seems to be the way GNL is practicing it.
If the emotion is rage at the fact that he can’t approach a complete stranger, who happens to be a woman, to satisfy his desires, he’s proving he’s sort of an asshole.
And then comes this:
First: it’s extremely creepy to compare hitting on a girl with a new born baby, then making an analogy about it being strangled.
That taken out of the way, please read carefully ’cause this is important:
SHE WAS NOT STRANGLING OR ACTUALLY DOING ANYTHING AT ALL TO ANYTHING RELATED TO THIS GUY
She was living her life, in the way she chose, and if that makes it impossible for this guy to approach it it’s no one’s fucking problem.
The “WHY IS SHE DOING THIS TO MEEEE!” vibe, plus the awkward projection of it on the earbuds, plus the fact that she’s a complete stranger unaware of anything that is not her life.
Oh, but where’s the woman-hating in getting angry because a woman has a choice?
Damn, was that a very sneaky Bold Mammoth eating my tags, or what?