So this little screenshot is making the rounds on the internet. It’s from 4chan, so who knows if the guy posting it is sincere. But I’ve seen similar, albeit less histrionic, complaints from other would-be pickup artistes in the past.
Guess what, dude. Some of those women wearing earbuds aren’t even listening to music. They just wear them to avoid creepy dudes like you.
Well, there is the Australian Parkour Association here, and they have groups in all major cities. They run classes every weekend in Brisbane, which is where I went to. I assume there would be something similar in other countries. As I said, it’s dominated by young men, which can be a bit intimidating to join in, but the people organising it were super nice, and one of the 2 instructors of my class was a woman.
I went to their “First Timers” class and it was focussed on safety and some basic moves. They taught – how to jump and land, how to roll, a couple of vaults, balancing on a rail and how to get up and down, quadrapedals (moving on hands and feet) and wall running.
I wasn’t able to do a lot of it because I am not very fit, but all the younger people in the class seemed to have no trouble. I don’t think you need to be particularly agile to do the basic moves.
Also, I spent the previous week at a gym trialling their program, and the parkour was sooo much more fun.
Yeah, this idea that if feminine-looking women will just scare enough men sexual harassment will decrease is magical thinking nonsense. And also a way of shifting responsibility back to the targets and away from the predators, which really isn’t OK.
It seems entirely unrealistic to think change will happen if more “feminine” women take a stand against aggressors. The fact of the matter is most of the time those men choosing to cross boundaries do it in a way that doesn’t automatically initiate a “fight or flight” response. Most of the time, they pretend they are being perfectly reasonable even though they are setting off multiple red flags. It would be unrealistic to suggest in those situations that a person should become aggressive towards them. I tend to hope they take the hint eventually, while trying not to antagonize them into becoming aggressive. I don’t have an issue if a woman wants to be more aggressive, but I personally am not going to do that unless the situation absolutely calls for it. One reason for that is how would I then justify my response, say to the police or something when I take some kind of pre-emptive strike at someone? Hell, women get enough grief as it is that we simply aren’t nice enough towards random strangers and aren’t considering their feelings. I dunno, it just doesn’t make sense to me.
I have the same reaction when a friend (a guy) suggests that I call the cops when I feel threatened. It just isn’t reasonable. Am I going to do that every time I feel threatened and then have to justify to a cop what those red flags were, which to people unfamiliar with the all-to-common feeling of unease are less likely to comprehend as “real” threats?
Plus, most creeps aren’t going for looks, they’re going for perceived vulnerability. Like Cupsinique said, a lot of ’em start with small boundary violations (gotta love plausible deniability) so they can escalate from there.
Parkourers’ (is that the right term?) jumping skills are so impressive. I always wonder how they can absorb multiple landings on concrete without blowing out their joints. I love the pure ethos of the sport – use your body, use what’s around you, move through your environment in the most efficient, compact, graceful way. It’s become a lot more popular in the last few years. Hope you’re enjoying the classes, Kim!
I always wanted to try it, but I’m tall and have a flaky left knee, which is the same reason I gave up on being Olga Korbut back in the second grade. Still, I can watch the videos and dream.
@hellkell
If you don’t look feminine, then you are not the target about which I am speaking. And that is not a problem.
I am talking about how feminine-appearing people can change the game. I am not, by any means, saying that anyone OUGHT to appear feminine. Nor am I denying that non-feminine-appearing people are harassed.
The issue, to me, was how to feminine-appearing people, who are harassed, deal with it?
So, no, I guess I don’t see the problem in how I’m framing this. I really don’t think I’m denying you, yet you read it as me denying you, and I don’t understand why that is, and therefore, I can’t fix it.
Somehow, we’re miscommunicating, so I’m going to withdraw from the discussion, to avoid upsetting you any more.
@cassandrakitty
Magical thinking? Maybe. I think of it as hope.
Responsibility? No. Empowerment to take the option, if you can and wish to? Yes.
Speaking as someone who has been victimized for a long time, any argument that works to empower me, I’ll take.
If it doesn’t work for you, then don’t take it.
That’s my last on this topic.
Now, this parkour stuff sounds really great. I want to look it up and see if there are any options, locally.
@michelle
Um, sorry if I don’t understand you?
But non-feminine women are harassed too? And they are also a target for street harassment, so it seems weird to not talk about it :/
Just lots of the ways you’ve been phrasing things makes it come across as putting the responsibility on women to avoid street harassment by looking scary as opposed to putting it on men to stop harassing women.
Ehhhh. idk a lot of this is rubbing me the wrong way ^-^
1) yeah, but thinking it will help won’t really. And if you slip into the way of thinking that women can prevent street harassment by acting a certain way you can start blaming them, even though I don’t know if (or think that) you will. But I think you’ve kind of been giving off that tone in this thread.
2) personal preference, but I hate the word ’empowerment’.
3) yeah, but you were kind of unclear earlier in the thread about it actually being a personal choice.
idk if what I’m saying made sense. ^-^
I am a very feminine-looking woman, and yet a. I am still aware that looking unfeminine can actually make you more rather than less likely to be targeted for harassment by men and b. I don’t think framing this conversation in a way that excludes women who aren’t femme is helpful. At all.
I also don’t find believing things that are not true particularly empowering.
I’ve had an extensive history of misogynistic harassment despite presenting as very butch. I think that says a lot.
IIRC, the “Don’t be That Guy” campaign in Canada was largely successful. What about a campaign against street harassment/sexual harassment based on that framework? Does anyone think something like that could be successful in improving things?
I think that a campaign that starts with “harassers, stop doing that” rather than “potential harassment targets, figure out how to discourage people from harassing you” is always going to be more effective than the other way around. For street harassment in particular I think something like Don’t Be That Guy is a good start. Realistically, most harassers know that the victims don’t like it, but they may be assuming that a lack of negative commentary from the other men around them means that men as a group are just fine with their behavior. Getting the idea that their behavior is regarded with contempt by the community as a whole out there seems like a step in the right direction.
The term they use is traceur. I think it will be a while before I can use it without feeling silly.
As far as I have been able to work out so far, is that they make sure they don’t bend their knees more than 90 degrees when landing, and to, as much as possible, convert the downward momentum into horizontal momentum by rolling.
That sucks about your knee.
I reckon a lot of guy are under the illusion that they are being complimentary and girls always like it, so maybe there is room for education there.
Man, I wish I had the stamina for parkour. Unfortunately, the first/last time I tried it had me whimpering when I stood up and sat down for a couple days afterward… and I have a pretty good pain tolerance.
Never letting athletic cis boys convince me that I just need to believe in myself ever again. My body just couldn’t keep up, and it brings out the ED in me like whoa.
RE: Ally
I’ve had an extensive history of misogynistic harassment despite presenting as very butch.
Yup. Ditto, though I think I’m a little too “pretty” in appearance to be perceived as butch. But last time I got groped and kissed by Creepy Tim, I was wearing a workshirt, combat boots, and blue jeans. These days, I only get read as male in the freakin’ dark.
With regard to street harassment and other creepy behaviors in public, I think a big problem is the bystander effect. I think public awareness campaigns can be utilized for this, along with other targets. It really irks me that so many people will just ignore the other humans around them to such an extent that they don’t even recognize or register distress. I’m not saying that everyone should feel obligated to step in, but if they are aware of a situation then they should tell someone who can. I don’t feel like it’s that hard to sort of pay peripheral attention to the people around you and care about their general well-being, I don’t think that’s asking too much right?* That’s why I like that show “What Would You Do.” It is heartening to see that a good portion of the people actually do respond, but some of those episodes really show that there are some gaps in our social tolerance.
*This is not directed at anyone in particular, just humanity in general…like come on folks, we’re a social species and our success as a species has been because we actually try to look out for each other.
I have been both butch and femme looking in my life time and have never been harassed. I don’t think it matters what you look like either. I can’t say it has to do with where you live, because I have plenty of stories from women I know who live in the same area as I do. A friend of mine experienced street harassment of the kind where they yelled very unkind things to her about her weight. This has happened to her on multiple occasions (of course always when she is not with other people).
We all know the real reason that these people do what they do. They are doing it because they want to make someone else feel fear, degraded, singled-out, ashamed,etc. It doesn’t matter what form the harassment takes, it all has the same motivation behind it. I don’t think society will be able to change the motivations of these people, it’s up to them I would think. But, we can make sure that they can’t get away with it in multiple socially agreed upon ways.
So true, I wear them on the train every day (even if not listening to anything) to stop people feeling they can approach me about pretty much anything. The other tactic is to close your eyes and pretend your asleep.
As for the cold-approaching, there is a section in the free MX magazine that everyone reads on the train in Australia where people can post anonymous encounters whilst describing that person and ask them out for coffee (if the person is interested they can contact the magazine to get their details), if they’re not, or simply haven’t seen the comment they don’t…it saves everyone a huge amount of embarrassment and doesn’t victimise anyone.
The reality is though guys, that if a woman is interested in you (even one you encounter randomly on public transport), you will know it, because she will give off signs. If there are no signs I would take it that she really isn’t interested and move on with your life.
…but hey, look who I’m talking to, the guys on this blog would already know that.
Ugh, no. Feminine women in general are not ‘femme’. Feminine lesbians are femme. It is an identity with a very specific meaning within lesbian culture. Stop using it as a *hip ‘n’ edgy* alternative to feminine.
@AM
Thanks for pointing that out. I’m a lesbian and I’m not a fan of non-lesbian women using those terms, yet I completely missed that upthread.
@Ally + AM
I missed it, but I didn’t even know it was a word 😛 Figured it was just an abbreviation.
It is a word. The first definition is simply “woman” but has since taken on other meanings.
Yeah, “femme” and “butch” are terms belonging to lesbians. It’s not well known, but that’s because non-lesbians have appropriated the hell out of those terms – sometimes out of ignorance, sometimes out of entitlement.
@Ally
K.
I am a lesbian, and never even knew either of those terms were belonging to lesbians :/ I feel like I got born out of the loop :p
@Marie
I understand. For a while I had no idea those were lesbian terms, either. I remember still identifying as bi and using “butch” and “femme” for myself and assuming that they were only synonyms for “masculine” and “feminine”.