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Domestic violence expert Lundy Bancroft: Men’s Rights philosophies make angry and controlling men even worse.

NEW-ERA-HULK-ANGRY-SNAPBACK-ANGLE
Or any other time, either, I’m guessing,

Lundy Bancroft is an expert on abusive relationships and the author of Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds Of Angry and Controlling Men, a book I’ve found very helpful not only in understanding abusers but also in understanding the behavior and “activism” of Men’s Rights Activists.

In a recent post on his blog, he warns about the ways in which “Men’s Rights” ideologies can justify, and made worse, abusive behavior from men who are already abusive, or who have abusive tendencies.

In the post, entitled “The Abuser Crusade,” he writes

When a man has some unhealthy relationship patterns to begin with, the last thing he needs is to discover philosophies that actually back up the destructive aspects of how he thinks. Take a guy who is somewhat selfish and disrespectful to begin with, then add in a big dose of really negative influences, and you have a recipe for disaster. And the sad reality is that there are websites, books, and even organizations out there that encourage men to be at their worst rather than at their best when it comes to relating to women.

It’s not surprising that a philosophy rooted in male entitlement would appeal to men who already feel pretty entitled – and often quite bitter that the women in their lives, not to mention the world at large, doesn’t seem to regard them as quite so deserving of adulation as they think they are.

As I’ve mentioned before, I used to think it was unfair to label the Men’s Rights Movement “the abusers’ lobby,” as many domestic violence experts have done, because I felt that the movement did raise some issues that MRAs at least seem to sincerely believe reflect discrimination against men. But the more experience I’ve had with MRAs, the more I’ve begun to see the Men’s Rights Movement not only as an “abusers’ lobby” but as an abusers’ support group, and an abusive force in its own right, promoting forms of “activism” that are little more than semi-organized stalking and harassment of individual women.

It’s not that every MRA is literally a domestic abuser, though I wouldn’t be shocked to find domestic abusers seriously overrepresented in the Men’s Rights ranks; it’s that the Men’s Rights movement promotes abusive ways of thinking and behaving.

In case anyone had any doubt about which groups Bancroft is talking about, he gets specific:

Some of these groups come under the heading of what is known as “Men’s Rights” or “Father’s Rights” groups. Their writings spread the message that women are trying to control or humiliate men, or are mostly focused on taking men’s money. They also tend to promote the idea that women who want to keep primary custody of their children after divorce are evil. The irony is that we live in a country that has refused to pass an amendment to the constitution to guarantee equal rights for women; yet some men are still out there claiming that women have too many rights and that men don’t have enough.

Bancroft also warns about groups preaching a return to patriarchal values:

Other groups don’t use the language of “rights”, but promote abusive thinking by talking about the “natural” roles of men and women. These groups teach, for example, that men are biologically programmed to be the ones making the key decisions, and that women are just naturally the followers of men’s leadership. These philosophies sometimes teach that men and women are just too different to have really close relationships.

In the end, Bancroft urges women whose partners are picking up new philosophies that seem to be making their behavior worse rather than better to start researching the subject themselves, and reaching out to other women in the same situation, in order to better understand what their partners are getting into — and defend themselves against it.

I’m curious how many readers here have had personal experience with men who’ve embraced Men’s or Fathers’ Rights philosophies (or any of the varieties of backwards Manosphere philosophies), or who know of women whose partners have.

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sparky
sparky
6 years ago

Wait, did MEZ just do a bunch of ‘splaining to freemage…about his penis?

freemage
freemage
6 years ago

To the folks who stepped up–no, I wasn’t particularly bothered by that bit, simply because MEZ’s opinions in general don’t matter much to me.

MEZ: Yes, I compared the long-term medical effects of douching to the long-term medical effects of circumcision. They’re both fringe-cases in terms of frequency, with a very small sliver of the population being genuinely left traumatized. They are Things That Should Not Happen, because they provide little to no benefit to the vast majority of the population, and do cause harm greater than the benefit they provide–and the severity of the medical consequences for those who ARE adversely affected are very similar.

As for the biology lesson… yes, I’m aware that the majority of the clitoris is inside the body. That’s part of the point. Many women require the portion that is externalized to be stimulated. Therefore, cutting off even a bit of that small portion is a major deal; for men, a sizeable portion of the sensitive regions is fully accessible outside the body, and so a similarly small cut is not going to produce the same limitations.

As for the bit about male circumcision in the third world–like it or not, there’s ample medical evidence showing that in Africa, at the very least, male infant circumcision reduces both AIDS transmission and infections rising from, yes, poor hygiene. STDs could be reduced by increased condom usage, and infections by improving access to running water, but until these steps have been taken, MIC at least has some medical benefit in that part of the world–and FGM, no matter what variety you care to focus on, does not. That is why the two are not comparable no matter which part of the world you’re in.

hellkell
hellkell
6 years ago

Now that I’ve come down off my obstinate asshole high I feel bad for trolling yesterday as well.

Fuck you. If you feel so bad, just fucking leave. You won’t be missed.

I’m sorry you had such a bad experience with other feminists, but if you were as much of an asshole there as you are here, I can see why that happened.

Just…fuck you.

Ally S
6 years ago

:: applauds for freemage ::

katz
6 years ago

I agree, reading about the procedure in explicit detail is very disturbing. That’s literally what they do, I put it under a trigger warning for a reason. Guess I made it too personal, I wanted him to see, front and clear, what happens during a circumcision. To really identify with it, and to realize that it was something more than douching.

I got ZERO pleasure. I wouldn’t circumcise a paramecium, never mind another person. I think circumcision is disgusting, remember?

…All of that contains a distinct lack of apologizing.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

So basically MEZ is the feminist-hating feminist blog troll equivalent of PETA, and she’s going to attempt to shock and horrify everyone into agreeing with her.

hellkell
hellkell
6 years ago

I think MEZ got a LOT of pleasure out of her scenario. She entertained herself if no one else.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

Actually you know what that comment made me think of?

Except that I quite like Steve Martin.

weirwoodtreehugger
6 years ago

Mez keeps on not addressing my points on why you can’t blame an oppressed group for giving credibility to the oppressors.

Of course not. Not when she can still double down on the circumcision = FGM false equivalency!

Classic MRA troll move. Cling to strawmen while ignoring other commenters valid points!

Oh, and did anyone think she just told us that she knows Pecunium is traumatized by his circumcision even though he said otherwise. Between that and the creepy comment to Freemage, it looks like the only one being rude to non-asshole men around here is her!

I hope Freemage and Pecunium don’t decide to join the MRM now :/

titianblue
titianblue
6 years ago

So I go off and have a lovely day with my younger nephew, planting on my allotment, eating chinese food & talking the day away. I come back & what is happening:

Mez is still obsessed with circumcision, still making insulting comparisons with FGM which downplay FGM and still calling us a “screeching mob”. She has decided that the way to deal with disagreement is to go on the offensive, again, As in truly truly offensive. Dear gods, Mez, condemn us as heartless harpies one last time, wipe the dust from your shoes and GO AWAY! You will be happier for it and I know I will.

Ransompester is still apparently drunk posting and not yet recovered from the horror of being mistaken for another troll. Guess it hurt to realise he was just not that memorable. Maake sure you hydrate & take a couple of analgesics or you’ll regret it in the morning, RP.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

Don’t be silly, of course she knows more about Pecunium’s genitalia than he does, and if he doesn’t feel bad about said genitalia now then hey, she’ll soon fix that (or at least try).

sparky
sparky
6 years ago

WWTH:

Mez keeps on not addressing my points on why you can’t blame an oppressed group for giving credibility to the oppressors.

Yes! And its so fucking annoying!

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

Oh, the other thing she’s kind of reminding me of, though again, not nearly as cute or funny.

Lea
Lea
6 years ago

Kate,
I’m glad you’re happy and in a better place now.

Weirwoodtreehugger,

I thought of another fictional guy would, though covered in skin, would still make a perect Men’s Rights Redditor.

Mr. Gone.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_EI_u8aF7NZg/TLNi4mEn9lI/AAAAAAAAAAk/Z2RsI3Cc_tU/s1600/Mr.+Gone.jpg

Julie: You, however, have a problem with women.
Mr. Gone: [scoff] How perceptive… did you figure that one out when I kidnapped you, or tied you up with leather straps? OF COURSE I’VE GOT A PROBLEM WITH WOMEN!

LBT
LBT
6 years ago

RE: contrapangloss

I feel for certain men’s issues, and I hate the ‘but my hurt is bigger than your hurt, so shut up about your problems and deal with mine’ things that occasionally crop up.

Here’s the thing. I’m an educator. I go around and constantly explain Multi 101 to folks. This is part of my life, I am mostly used to it, and I am generally totally okay with doing what I do. Sure, sometimes, I really have to bite my tongue when I hear yet another iteration of, “Are you dangerous? Because everyone knows multis are axe-murderers…” But it’s my topic, and I’m the educator, so I smile big and gently explain that there has never been a multi serial killer, and only one high-profile criminal who’s been proven multiple in all of recorded history, and I cite statistics, and then I go scream into my pillow at night.

Mammoth is the one place pretty much anywhere that I feel okay just saying, “No. You don’t get to ask me this shit.” So sometimes, these newbies who get crossfired are doing the equivalent of coming up to me and INSISTING that I explain that I’m not an axe-murderer to them RIGHT FUCKING NOW or I’m a meanie who doesn’t care about their feelings or sense of safety. Also, they might throw in how they knew this multi once who was a total asshole, so I’m under an onus to prove I’m not like that.

Replace ‘multi’ with ‘women’ and you basically have a bunch of the folks who get fried here. Only multi, at least you have the excuse that there’s not a lot of info about it. Women and feminism have tons. So yeah, of course we’re going to get pretty annoyed about having to educate. Mammoth ISN’T an education space. It’s a mockery space.

RE: katz

Is anyone else reading Saga?

I tried, but I’ve had to swear off Brian K. Vaughn for his penchant for “rocks fall, everyone dies” endings. Plus, Saga just really didn’t do it for me.

RE: MEZ

Now that I’ve come down off my obstinate asshole high I feel bad for trolling yesterday as well.

And yet, you are still here.

RE: Robert

I’ve never seen an online discussion by men on discouraging circumcision derailed by feminists who come in and demand “what about the women?”

I can’t believe I never noticed this.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

The funny part being that they seem to think feminists are Cenobites.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

OK, that made no sense with the comments in between. The Cenobite thing was in response to Lea.

kittehserf
6 years ago

THANK YOU, David. I just emailed you about that, so ignore it, you’re way ahead. 🙂

LBT
LBT
6 years ago

Thank you, David. I was pretty grossed out by the, “No, you ARE traumatized by this! I’m going to MAKE YOU realize how traumatized you are by this by going into it in DISTURBING DETAIL!”

I know some sexual assault survivors who did not see their assault as hugely traumatic. I may not understand this emotionally, but I’m not going to try and FUCKING TRAUMATIZE THEM to prove my fucking point. Only in some way this is worse because unless MEZ has a dick, she doesn’t have any business claiming any authority on the subject.

MEZ, congratulations. You’ve grossed me out.

RE: Lea

OMG MR. GONE. The Maxx was one of the first comics I ever read! It inhabits a special place of adolescent nostalgia for me! Sam Kieth = awesome.

pecunium
6 years ago

I realise this is probably a bit late, but this jumped out at me as needing translation:

I would go away faster if people managed to get my arguments right

In plain english this means, “I wouldn’t have to argue if you were willing to agree with me”.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

We can finally move on now? Awesome. Happy dance, everyone.

contrapangloss
6 years ago

LBT, that’s totally fair.

My apologies if I’ve ever made you feel like you had to be in teacher-mode, here. It doesn’t sound fun. 🙁

Robert
Robert
6 years ago

A few weeks ago, I was talking to my younger son’s therapist, and mentioned something I’d read in a pro-circumcision piece – advocating it on the basis of ‘he’ll wonder why his penis doesn’t look like his father’s.’ How on Earth would that happen, I wondered; I myself have no idea if my father had a foreskin or not (odds are no, but still). She replied, with exquisite tact and diplomacy, “well, Robert, there are all sorts of families.”

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

I guess if the kid bathed with the dad they might notice, but I’m not sure why dad couldn’t just explain it away as adults looking different or something.

titianblue
titianblue
6 years ago

‘he’ll wonder why his penis doesn’t look like his father’s.’

And maybe his father will just tell him the truth. That Dad had a piece removed because it was the custom long ago when Dad was young and that the kid could choose for himself, once he was a grown-up, whether he wanted to do the same or not.

brooked
brooked
6 years ago

I’ll tie you down so that you can’t move, and flip a coin over whether you’ll get adequate pain control or if I’ll decide that it’s too risky and you’re too young. (I’ll get to you Howard).

Wait, if MEZ is banned that means we’ll never find out what she planned to do after she got back to Howard. We’ll never know if she was going to post a cogent point that contributed positively to the discussion at hand, or make an uncomfortable comment about Howard’s penis. Probably the latter, but we can’t be ever be certain of that.

If it amuses you guys, I’ll tell you guys what partly inspired my opinion. I was in another feminist group, at another time, and from what I remember some other feminist had suggested/agreed to a compromise where a drop of blood would be ritually draw from a girls clitoris to satisfy the custom of “becoming a woman” that female circumcision represents to some cultures. She was being roundly ripped to shreds for this suggestion. Even one drop of blood was too much. I don’t remember specifically how male circumcision got brought up, (it wasn’t me), but I do remember that I left disgusted. It was basically like the argument from above; male circumcision is analogous to douching.

I love how she provided an origin story that explains her current role as Anti-Circumcision Feminist Woman. At another time, she was just a regular citizen until one fateful day the Joker murdered her parents she was disgusted by what feminists said about male circumcision during a discussion of FGM. Now she patrols the internet in search of feminists discussions about FGM anything and derails them with her male circumcision truth bombs, in order to prevent bad feminists from driving slighted men into the arms of the MRM. A hero’s job is never done, especially one trying to save feminism from feminists.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

I guess we should at least have given her a cape as a gift before she left.

weirwoodtreehugger
6 years ago

Maybe she’s still lurking
http://giphy.com/gifs/fGABZhiUzwi2c

kittehserf
6 years ago

Hi, brooked, how are you? Been a while. 🙂

katz
6 years ago

‘he’ll wonder why his penis doesn’t look like his father’s.’

And maybe his father will just tell him the truth. That Dad had a piece removed because it was the custom long ago when Dad was young and that the kid could choose for himself, once he was a grown-up, whether he wanted to do the same or not.

So often with sex/genital-related stuff, people act like “just explain it to your kids” is somehow not a viable option. But seriously, what’s so hard about this?

kittehserf
6 years ago

Why does it even have to be that complicated? People look different in all sorts of ways. This is just another of them.

Marie
Marie
6 years ago

@cassandra

So basically MEZ is the feminist-hating feminist blog troll equivalent of PETA, and she’s going to attempt to shock and horrify everyone into agreeing with her.

that’s shockingly accurate. 😛

@david

thanks for banning her.

katz
6 years ago

Maybe she’s still lurking
http://giphy.com/gifs/fGABZhiUzwi2c

Or maybe hawkward.

LBT
LBT
6 years ago

RE: contrapangloss

No, you’ve been perfectly decent! And frankly, I’m kind of accustomed to educating wherever I go. (I think now enough people at Mammoths know that I don’t have to do it so much but then again, that whole kladle clusterfuck was a while ago…) If any of the baby Mammoths wonder what the hell I’m on about HERE YOU GO.

RE: Robert

I’d read in a pro-circumcision piece – advocating it on the basis of ‘he’ll wonder why his penis doesn’t look like his father’s.’

*snarky face* Well, my dick doesn’t look like my father’s, but seeing as I’m trans, I don’t think anything can be done about that. Somehow, I’ve managed to endure life while knowing this fact.

Also, seriously, what the hell is MEZ’s fucking DEAL? She’s fucking preaching to people with penises about how they should feel about them. I mean, I’m against circumcision, but I’m not going to go around saying, “I WILL GET TO YOU.” I mean, Jesus, try to sound more like a Saw villain, Christ.

pecunium
6 years ago

cloudiah: You are in New York? Ping me.

pecunium
6 years ago

re wasabi: most of what is sold in the US/outside Japan isn’t really wasabi, but rather horseradish, food coloring and just enough wasabi root to make it legal to say, “wasabi powder”.

Real wasabi is a related, but much less aggressive, somewhat floral/earthy flavor. It’s also (so I am told) different when freshly grated as opposed to powdered.

A friend of mine was going on about how Wasabi is so much more potent than horseradish. I averred that it wasn’t so very different. We were at a party, at my house. At the party (a barbecue) we had just opened a jar of grated horseradish. He decided to prove to me that it wasn’t so bad.

He dipped a full-load into a Frito’s Scoop and popped it into his mouth, and I got to see a Tex Avery Cartoon in real life. His face went red, his eyes popped, and then shrank into his head, and he emptied the bottle of beer in his hand.

I calmly dipped a fair bit into a chip, ate it, and then did it again.

My grandmother’s house had been a horseradish farm. I grew up eating it on buttered bread.

beegee
beegee
6 years ago

Just going to repeat my thanks from before. Unfortunately I don’t live in an area where there’s common-law marriage, so I don’t know what I would get in a breakup. I’ve been thinking of going to therapy because I’ve been pretty depressed lately and I’m starting to get far too angry at things that don’t deserve anger. I don’t want to leak anger onto my kids or the people around me.

pecunium
6 years ago

Mez: Gee, I wonder how entire blocks of decent normal people end up part of hate groups. I wonder how this sort of manipulation has repeated throughout history.

Nawwwww, can’t be it! Hate-groups are only filled with “bad people”. I bet all Germans are bad people.

sarcasm, sarcasm, sarcasm.

The fuck is your point here?

Because I don’t see anyone saying all men are bad. I also don’t see how the idea that the victims of oppression need to be nice to the oppressors helps anyone.

Why are their hate groups? Because some people hate. How do they gain/remain powerful? Because idiots don’t call them out for being hateful. Because fellow travellers say, “they may be wrong, but they aren’t completely wrong and “those people” aren’t grateful enough for the good things which happened. All they do is talk about the bad things,” yadda, yadda.

You know, the way you are doing with the MRM.

I was obviously making fun of the idea that people join hate groups because they are bad people and not because they are manipulated.

No*. Your point was that people join hate groups because the people they feel wrong them (e.g. proto-MRAs and women) aren’t nice enough. That makes them angry and the hate group fuels the anger. You aver that should the target of their ire be nice, they will see the error of their ways.

This is bullshit.

*and if you read “Hitler’s Willing Executioners” you will find more evidence of your errors; even if the book wasn’t the groundbreaker it was ballyhooed to be. It was just the first real analysis of that aspect done in English.

pecunium
6 years ago

Magpie (long time no see): My friend didn’t fall into the MRM. He was tempted, but had people who didn’t let him walk alone; and kept him from being led down the garden path.

pecunium
6 years ago

MEz: How did we get talking about anti-semetism[sic] anyway?

You introduced it, the same way you introduced circumcision, and those nasty black folks who caused the KKK.

My point was about lending credibility to your oppressors, not being at fault for your oppression.

Bullshit. Bigots gonna bigot. People who are bigoted will take the least scrap of, “evidence” and use it to prove the targets of their hate deserve it.

The law made it worse to have crack cocaine than it was to have powder. So a lot more blacks end up in prison. Then the KKK, etc. go on about how “blacks are prone to crime”. That also means there is a greater percentage of women who are raising children alone/without men, and that shows they are all harlots.

Because bigots gonna bigot.

pecunium
6 years ago

MEZ: a). The clitoral hood is the foreskin of the clitoris. LITERALLY. The clitoris and penis are homogolous.

Homologous is not identical. Removing the clitoral hood reduces (dramtically) the ability of women to enjoy sex. That, in fact, is the fucking point. Removing the foreskin doesn’t. It is argued that men who have been circumsised enjoy sex less. This is hard to prove.

It’s not hard to prove that even the least traumatic forms of FGM make sex unpleasant; not merely less wonderful (and, from personal experience, I can say sex while circumcised is pretty good, even when it’s less than wonderful), but downright unpleasant.

Since the declared purpose is to make sex unpleasant so women won’t do it willingly (and so won’t be “unfaithful”). That also means the desired end state of FGM is to make all sex a form of rape.

The foreskin’s “job” is to protect the sensitive skin of the rest of the penis from getting calloused by constant rubbing and bumping

Their is no way to prove what the, “job” is. One can as easily argue the point of the foreskin is to make it easier to penetrate an unwilling woman, because the smegma acts a a lubricant.

Well, I’ve never personally seen a commercial for douche, EVER, but that’s besides the point.

Never? Where the fuck have you been hiding? Not only have I seen lots, I’ve seen them in the past few years; and I watch practically no television anymore (thank goodness for streaming and DVDs).

Freemange said that circumcising boys was no worse than girl’s douching.

Liar. He said the relative merits of the two were more equivalent to the discussion.

If you are going to pretend people here are misrepresenting you, it might behoove you to be accurate when attempting to relate others words.

Obviously I don’t want to do violent things to him. That’s a literal description of a circumcision procedure.

More bullshit. Have you ever been present at a circumcision? I have (more than one, actually). My little brother (21 years my junior) is also circumcised. They used a pederson clamp. He wasn’t tied down. The doctor put it on, and a few says later it fell off, with the forskin.

So far as could be seen, it wasn’t painful.

In jewish practice the child is being held, not tied down.

So, in short, you are full of it, and the graphic nature of your fantasies tells me more about you than I wanted to know.

Oh, and Pecumium’s argument is that circumcision is okay because babies don’t remember and children don’t understand what circumcision is or is not.

My argument was a rebutle to your claim of direct memory, and to the idea that it does irreparable harm.

a). Babies remember, even if it’s not a conscious memory. Every experience influences how their brain forms.

And… the issue is one of harm. I have done myself much more grievous harm than the pain of my circumcision is likely to have caused.

Because (having studied psychology), babies can’t ascribe cause, intent, etc., to the pains they feel. From the POV of an infant the pain which comes of slashing their faces with the razor blades they keep at the end of their fingers. If a cat claws a baby it hurts much the same as circumcision (i.e. it is a cut). It may even be worse, because cat’s scratches are prone to festering.

If you want to make the argument; you need those statistics you promised.

b). Even if they really didn’t remember, causing someone pain because “they won’t remember” is wrong.

Good thing that wasn’t the argument. The question is one of relative harm, and the faiures of feminism because they don’t make as big a deal about male circumcision as they do about FGM.

Again, it behooves you to be intellectually honest when presenting others arguments.

c). Just because he’s learned to live with it, and maybe isn’t bothered by it, doesn’t mean it’s ok.

Good thing I didn’t say that. I in fact didn’t say a fucking thing about my personal opinions about the subject. I spoke to the idea that circumcision is comparable to FGM (see above why it’s not).

I got ZERO pleasure.

I don’t believe you. I will grant, arguendo that writing it didn’t, per se give you pleasure. I do think, however, you took pleasure in the idea that you made him (and others) squirm.

pecunium
6 years ago

Ach… I am sorry if my replies to Mez are tedious; given the (blessed) banning.

I am not sorry for making them; as I still think the points needed making.

And Mez, if you are haunting the thread; you deserved worse than you got. You are an asshole; and you take pleasure in being dishonest, and in attempting to hurt others.

moldybrehd
6 years ago

Whoa yes, I hadn’t even thought of the first-world side of it. It’s even more of a thing, since apparently the guy doing it talks about how money and flash cars and so on make you happy. ::eyeroll:: But to come to the conclusion that “being in the moment” is a consistent way to be happy just sounds like a really, really privileged – naw, stuff it, blinkered – view, which seems unaware that horrible or just miserable things happen to people even in the first world on a daily basis.

I watched the video, and… ugh.

I kept waiting for him to mention at least the fact that several ancient philosophies have specifically promoted ‘living in the moment’, but I was doomed to disappointment. I freely acknowledge I’m not an expert on every philosophy, but one of the big principles of buddhism is called ‘mindfulness’, of which a large component is paying attention to the moment. And I’m also fairly certain that at least one Taoist text advocates a version of mindfulness – some part of my brain says it’s from the Tao Te Ching, but my brain gets fuzzy when I’m trying to remember something I haven’t read in over a decade, and it was a translation at that – so I may be totally wrong about it.

So this isn’t exactly what I’d call a grand new insight into human nature thanks to science (though it is always good to get verifiable data!). I can’t tell if the dude actually thinks he’s reinvented the wheel, or is shamelessly stealing from other cultures without even a mention of where he got his inspiration.

kittehserf
6 years ago

Dude didn’t even acknowledge how old the idea of living in the moment is?

I am shocked, shocked I say. ::eyeroll::

brooked
brooked
6 years ago

@Kitteh A belated hi back. I just adopted two rescue cats after a few years of pet-free living and happy as hell about that. Sounds like your jaunt to the States went well.

Haven’t been on the site for a while, returning only to see a troll get weird, implode and sent off with a vintage pecunium’s lengthy post excavation. You can go home again!

@pecunium. I’m glad you challenged MEZ’s bullshit claim that babies are traumatized by direct memories of their circumcision. Some babies get seriously injured and all babies get sick, and can suffer a lot of pain as a result. They get over it and forget it happened.

Here’s a recent article about infantile amnesia:
https://www.sciencenews.org/article/birth-new-brain-cells-might-erase-babies’-memories

Arctic Ape
Arctic Ape
6 years ago

Robert:

A few weeks ago, I was talking to my younger son’s therapist, and mentioned something I’d read in a pro-circumcision piece – advocating it on the basis of ‘he’ll wonder why his penis doesn’t look like his father’s.’

This argument would make a little more sense if it was about a boy comparing himself to other boys (or even porn performers), which I guess would be more likely in mainstream US culture? But then, it’s really about validating circumcision as a family tradition, and validating the father’s own circumcision.

kittehserf
6 years ago

I just adopted two rescue cats after a few years of pet-free living and happy as hell about that.

ENVY ENVY ENVY

I’ve been wanting a third kitty for a while (can’t afford to, alas). I hope there will be pictures of your two!

Arian
Arian
6 years ago

The amount of people claiming that removing healthy genital tissue isn’t comparable to removing healthy genital tissue is /really/ fucking horrible.
What the fuck are you people doing on a feminist and egalitarian site?

Ally S
6 years ago

Arian, GTFO. Our arguments are far more nuanced than that, and maybe you would agree if you actually took time to read the damn thread. We’ve had this argument within countless pages of comments already and there is no reason go in circles just because you don’t get what we’re saying.