Categories
all about the menz entitled babies evil women excusing abuse father's rights misogyny MRA oppressed men patriarchy playing the victim

Domestic violence expert Lundy Bancroft: Men’s Rights philosophies make angry and controlling men even worse.

NEW-ERA-HULK-ANGRY-SNAPBACK-ANGLE
Or any other time, either, I’m guessing,

Lundy Bancroft is an expert on abusive relationships and the author of Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds Of Angry and Controlling Men, a book I’ve found very helpful not only in understanding abusers but also in understanding the behavior and “activism” of Men’s Rights Activists.

In a recent post on his blog, he warns about the ways in which “Men’s Rights” ideologies can justify, and made worse, abusive behavior from men who are already abusive, or who have abusive tendencies.

In the post, entitled “The Abuser Crusade,” he writes

When a man has some unhealthy relationship patterns to begin with, the last thing he needs is to discover philosophies that actually back up the destructive aspects of how he thinks. Take a guy who is somewhat selfish and disrespectful to begin with, then add in a big dose of really negative influences, and you have a recipe for disaster. And the sad reality is that there are websites, books, and even organizations out there that encourage men to be at their worst rather than at their best when it comes to relating to women.

It’s not surprising that a philosophy rooted in male entitlement would appeal to men who already feel pretty entitled – and often quite bitter that the women in their lives, not to mention the world at large, doesn’t seem to regard them as quite so deserving of adulation as they think they are.

As I’ve mentioned before, I used to think it was unfair to label the Men’s Rights Movement “the abusers’ lobby,” as many domestic violence experts have done, because I felt that the movement did raise some issues that MRAs at least seem to sincerely believe reflect discrimination against men. But the more experience I’ve had with MRAs, the more I’ve begun to see the Men’s Rights Movement not only as an “abusers’ lobby” but as an abusers’ support group, and an abusive force in its own right, promoting forms of “activism” that are little more than semi-organized stalking and harassment of individual women.

It’s not that every MRA is literally a domestic abuser, though I wouldn’t be shocked to find domestic abusers seriously overrepresented in the Men’s Rights ranks; it’s that the Men’s Rights movement promotes abusive ways of thinking and behaving.

In case anyone had any doubt about which groups Bancroft is talking about, he gets specific:

Some of these groups come under the heading of what is known as “Men’s Rights” or “Father’s Rights” groups. Their writings spread the message that women are trying to control or humiliate men, or are mostly focused on taking men’s money. They also tend to promote the idea that women who want to keep primary custody of their children after divorce are evil. The irony is that we live in a country that has refused to pass an amendment to the constitution to guarantee equal rights for women; yet some men are still out there claiming that women have too many rights and that men don’t have enough.

Bancroft also warns about groups preaching a return to patriarchal values:

Other groups don’t use the language of “rights”, but promote abusive thinking by talking about the “natural” roles of men and women. These groups teach, for example, that men are biologically programmed to be the ones making the key decisions, and that women are just naturally the followers of men’s leadership. These philosophies sometimes teach that men and women are just too different to have really close relationships.

In the end, Bancroft urges women whose partners are picking up new philosophies that seem to be making their behavior worse rather than better to start researching the subject themselves, and reaching out to other women in the same situation, in order to better understand what their partners are getting into — and defend themselves against it.

I’m curious how many readers here have had personal experience with men who’ve embraced Men’s or Fathers’ Rights philosophies (or any of the varieties of backwards Manosphere philosophies), or who know of women whose partners have.

Subscribe
Notify of
guest

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.

629 Comments
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

But she’s a feminist, you guys. Not only a feminist, best feminist. The rest of us are ruining feminism and driving men into MRA-dom. Not, you know, you men right here, you don’t count because reasons.

kittehserf
6 years ago

MEZ would have to have the strangest take on feminism I’ve ever seen from a so-called feminist.

Lea
Lea
6 years ago

serrana,
Any time. 😉

Beegee,
Hugs and support.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

Big tent and all, but yeah, I think we’re going to need a special little roped off section for this one.

hellkell
hellkell
6 years ago

Kind of an anti-VIP area?

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

Like the table at a wedding where you stick the relatives who you had to invite so as not to offend your parents but who you don’t actually like.

kittehserf
6 years ago

I think this relative is one who wouldn’t get an invite, regardless of what the parents thought.

Come to that I doubt the parents would want her there, either.

contrapangloss
6 years ago

Wow… I disappear for a few days, and things get busy! Just read through the thread, and oh-my!

First thought:

Beegee, you’re doing the right thing. Positive brainwaves to you, as you try to escape financial and emotional abuse.

Second thought:

My father is amazing. He treats everyone with respect (well, and some gentle teasing). He also is worried about young men in America, the high rates of divorce, and broken homes. He firmly believes that there are neurological and physical distinctions between men and women, with high amounts of variability in those traits (which means gender distinctions are not absolute). He also believes that Radfem has contributed, somewhat and somehow, to some young men’s problems.

However, in our long talks (debates), he’s never said that young men’s anger was justified. He’s never said feminists should solve their problems for them.

He has advocated for old men being willing to tell young men when they are being idiots.

He’s said men need to form real friendships and be willing to be emotionally vulnerable with other men, instead of confiding in women (because they are less threatening, or seem like comforters) and then getting angry when the women don’t solve their problems.

He thinks that the most dangerous thing for young, angry men is when they only get behavioral feedback from other young, angry men. He thinks being a male mentor, and a positive role model, is the most important thing he can do for young men today.

He has made a difference, for at least a few troubled youth.

It’s funny what people can do when they address issues.

Third thought:

Smiling when in a bad mood does trigger some happy neurotransmitters. This is good. Being happy is nice. However, chronic ‘Must be HappyHappyHappy’ stress is emotionally crippling, and is a awful coping mechanism.

If you can legitimately turn the frown upside down, that’s totally awesome! If you can’t, it’s okay to be sad, angry, whatevers. It’s also okay to talk to people about issues. Living with someone and trying to pretend their behavior doesn’t bother you is tough. I tried for a week with a roommate and caved. Guess what?

Stoping pretending things were dandy and talking to the roomie about it, fixed the problem! Miracle!

I believe Kate when she says she’s happy enough.

Her method doesn’t work for me.

There is no one method that works for everyone.

Heck, my method doesn’t work for everyone.

Last thought:

Wow, that was a heated troll debate. Since I’m somewhat new and don’t know MEZ’s history, I was inclined to take MEZ seriously. I can be inept with analogies, have logic fails, and be a bit combative. I feel for certain men’s issues, and I hate the ‘but my hurt is bigger than your hurt, so shut up about your problems and deal with mine’ things that occasionally crop up.

All rape, all abuse, all mutilation is bad, regardless of gender.

I saw myself, a bit, in those first few posts, and felt a little weirded out by the response. I’ve tasted enough of my own foot, elsewhere, and I’ll taste foot again, eventually, here, I’m sure. By the time I finished reading the thread, I felt less generously inclined, and understood the regular’s more vehement responses.

There’s a line between “We need to stop comparing bruises and scars, and fix a problem” and continual false equivalences.

There’s a line between pointing out that someone is using combative language, and claiming their reactions to sensitive topics is bullying.

There’s a line between defending your ideas, and refusing to listen to critiques (even if the critiques are a bit more like flames).

Some newbie commenters occasionally get caught in the crossfire. I feel for them. I hope they come back with a willingness to play nicely with others. Hopefully, they figured out why what they said wasn’t taken well.

They don’t have to agree with everything. There’s a difference between agreeing and a willingness to amicably disagree.

Eventually, I will disagree with someone about something. I may get a verbal kick in the teeth. Hopefully, I will learn something from it.

Heck: I’d prefer a verbal kick to a gentle ‘perhaps you should see it this way, maybe, if you’d like, please?’

If the wall of text is unfounded, my apologies. I’ll attempt to rein myself in, if necessary.

katz
6 years ago

MEZ would have to have the strangest take on feminism I’ve ever seen from a so-called feminist.

Remember that one we had a while back who said that anyone who wasn’t a communist wasn’t a real feminist?

kittehserf
6 years ago

No apologies needed, contrapangloss, that was a great comment! That was no wall o’ text, because 1) it said things worth saying and 2) it had paragraph breaks. <3 😉

Your dad sounds like a terrific person.

Yeah, MEZ has a history here. She's done this sort of shit before – in fact it's all she's memorable for.

kittehserf
6 years ago

katz, LOL I vaguely remember that nitwit, now you mention it! Did that crop up around the time of blackbloc’s epic ME ME ME meltdown?

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

I met one (a dude, of course) who splained that I wasn’t allowed to call myself a feminist if I wasn’t willing to do sex work. And that was the last time we met up for coffee.

kittehserf
6 years ago

That crunching noise you just heard was my jaw hitting the keyboard.

Bina
Bina
6 years ago

A real feminist is someone who works to better the lot of women, regardless of their own gender. And that is really all there is to it. It’s not a contest, and it’s certainly not a dogma. It’s just about making sure that women have as good a life as men. Y punto.

grumpycatisagirl
6 years ago

I met one (a dude, of course) who splained that I wasn’t allowed to call myself a feminist if I wasn’t willing to do sex work.

??? ? ?

?

kittehserf
6 years ago

Did splainy dude a) want you to prove your RealFeminist™ cred by sexing him?

Though I bet he’d then say a RealFeminist™ wouldn’t accept any money.

kittehserf
6 years ago

Ignore that random a), this is what comes of editing mid-comment …

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

No, I think it was more that he’d just about grasped that idea that most feminists are supportive of sex workers as people, even if they dislike the industry, and somehow in his sexism-poisoned little brain it turned into…that. Like, prove your activist cred.

serrana
serrana
6 years ago

I met one (a dude, of course) who splained that I wasn’t allowed to call myself a feminist if I wasn’t willing to do sex work. And that was the last time we met up for coffee.

TIL that you can’t believe women are people and deserve to be treated as such if you have personal boundaries. Also, that you have to ask permission to be a feminist.

kittehserf
6 years ago

I guess it never occurred to creeptastic dude that requiring someone to do sex work when they don’t want to is requiring them to be raped.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

Also the kind of testing of boundaries that creeps always do, which is why I told him to go fuck himself with a rusty chainsaw.

kittehserf
6 years ago

Well done!

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

(Countdown till MEZ comes back and tells me off for driving him into the arms of John the Otter?)

kittehserf
6 years ago

10 … 9 … 8 …

pecunium
6 years ago

Someone very close to me was having a very unpleasant divorce. His wife was being manipulative, abusive and otherwise making things miserable. There were kids in the picture.

He was looking for someone to help him with the process and some “Fathers’ Rights” dudes started giving him advice. He was also (thank God) spending a lot of time on the phone with me. I was, as best I could (this was about ten years ago), telling him the dudes were not helping (they almost got him to buy into the “alienation of affection” bullshit). That managed to keep some of it in check. The fathers rights dudes also had some attorneys they recommended. Thankfully he thought the lawywers to be less than competent (which they probably were) and got a different one; one who told him to put the kibosh on that crap; because it wouldn’t play well with the judge.

Skip forward half a dozen years. He’s studied mediation. He’s in a better place all in all. His ex is still less than wonderful, but he looks at things and sees he hadn’t been responding well to the things which were going on either. His relationship with his ex (the youngest of the kids is about 15 now) is still strained, but he’s a lot more understanding; and admits now that the advice he was getting was a recipe for disaster.

So these days he mediates, lots of divorce, and child custody issues. He understands how some people can be douchey; and that some of it is defensive behavior when they feel out of options.

And he also has an eye peeled for MRM bullshit.

kittehserf
6 years ago

A bullet dodged, then. ::shudder::

pecunium
6 years ago

Brzzzzz: I respect people boundaries,

Liar. How many times have people here told you they don’t want to interact with you?

Now, I (for one) don’t care that you come back. And that other people tell you to fuck off is their affair; and none of us is the arbiter of who can stay but…

When you have a people who tell you they want to never hear from you again, and you keep coming back… that’s not respect for people’s boundaries.

pecunium
6 years ago

I would like to find a happy medium where I can be wlecome by women and express my frustrations as a man. What is wrong with that?

Nothing. I do that all the time. I’ve even been known to do it here. No one gives me shit for it. You know why? I don’t say my frustrations are the fault of women. Nor that they are based on society giving me a raw deal because I’m male.

I say that this person, or that person, did a shitty thing. I say that this society expectation is crap. I Say I dislike this way ‘x’ group reacts to ‘y’ issue.

And the people I talk to say, “dude,that sucks,” or they say, “dude, you are wrong because x,’y,z,” or they say, “I see what you mean about ‘a’, but ‘b’ might be a result of …”.

Because I am not a douchecanoe.

pecunium
6 years ago

Mez: Let’s clarify; I don’t care how nice or mean feminists are to men and their “fee-fees”. I’m scolding some feminists for being out-right antagonistic to men’s issues, and the rest of feminism for not coming down on their asses.

Right…so in sum all feminists are guilty because some feminists do things you don’t like.

So you do care. But the MRM… them you give a pass because some women were mean, and the rest of the female population didn’t rise up in arms to defend the men (who are so beleaguered and oppressed).

I (as one of those male feminists you aver to be rarer than hen’s teeth) call bullshit. Not once has a radical feminist (and I’m old enough to have been annoyed with WAP, and pissed off that they made common cause with the Moral Majority, and then pulled a, “but masturbatory aids for women are different” argument when the law they passed outlawed dildoes and vibrators as well as Playboy and Hustler), caused me to go all reactionary.

And the dudes I know who say that they were all for equal rights before the radicals “hijacked” feminism… are lying. I knew them before, and I talk to them now and the story is always the same; erosion of privilege = Women wand to be superior.

Just like the racists.

Magpie
6 years ago

Pecunium’s friend and my brother got sucked into it in much the same way, by the sound of it. That lawyer gave him good advice.

katz
6 years ago

I met one (a dude, of course) who splained that I wasn’t allowed to call myself a feminist if I wasn’t willing to do sex work. And that was the last time we met up for coffee.

…You win for “weirdest thing someone has claimed feminists must do.”

pecunium
6 years ago

Mez: What is a “serious” complication of circumcision anyway? Severe scarring? Mutilation? What? At the very least, most infants don’t receive anesthesia during the procedure, and that alone is harmful. Not too long ago there was a discussion going on here about the harms that spanking does to children, what about strapping a baby boy down and cutting off a nerve-filled chunk of his penis? “He’s too young to remember” my ass.

You aren’t a circumcised male. You have no idea what you are talking about.

I am male. I am circumcised. I don’t remember it. I so don’t remember it that when I first encountered the idea I misunderstood it (having not known anyone who wasn’t circumcised), and was convinced I wasn’t, because no one had cut the end of my dick off.

When I saw my first uncircumcised penes (gym class) I was convinced they had been circumcised, because I didn’t see a glans (i.e. the end of their dick) and I did see the ring of what I took to be scar tissue.

So no, I don’t remember it. My earliest memories are, so it appears, from between 15-18 months (because I described my bed in situation it only occupied for that period of time. I was about 18 years old when I did so. My mother was shocked at the details I recalled).

My thoughts on the subject are complex. My opinion of your thoughts on it are not. You are an asshole. You are using circumcision as a club to beat feminists with. You have made it a cause, and a justification for dismissing feminism, because, “it doesn’t care about men”.

Which is bullshit. What it doesn’t concern itself with are issues which are purely related to men. Which is as it should be.

The MRM, on the other hand, looks at every issue through the lens of, “how can we make sure women don’t get any benefit”.

You are fine with that.

Even if you say that most complications aren’t “serious”, I’m going to look at ANY complication to a man’s genitals that originated from an unnecessary operation undertook as a matter of custom and looks as a VERY BAD THING.”… while I dismiss the more serious complications of the more grievous mutilations of women; because comparing the severity of the two procedures is invidious. FTFY

Ally S
6 years ago

I met one (a dude, of course) who splained that I wasn’t allowed to call myself a feminist if I wasn’t willing to do sex work. And that was the last time we met up for coffee.

o_O

is my only reaction

katz
6 years ago

Off-topic: Is anyone else reading Saga? I just finished Volume 3 and this page gave me feels.

(Lying Cat is a character who says “LYING” whenever someone says something that isn’t true.)

Kim
Kim
6 years ago

Re the happiness thing. I was listening to a TED talk about happiness. There is this guy doing a scientific study about it where he get people to report via an app about their level of happiness and what they are doing at the time etc, to get some statistics on what makes people happy. App is here if you’re interested in getting involved : http://www.trackyourhappiness.org/

In the talk he said the only thing that consistently made people happy was thinking about what they were doing at the time, rather than thinking about something else. Whether they liked what they were doing was less important. This is the talk: http://www.ted.com/talks/matt_killingsworth_want_to_be_happier_stay_in_the_moment

I don’t know how accurate his conclusions are, but I thought it was interesting and I’ve been trying be more mindful.

kittehserf
6 years ago

That’s a lovely page, katz.

Also OT: a couple of tourists with the famous Sue at the Field Museum.

kittehserf
6 years ago

Well poop, that sort of link doesn’t get where it should. Back to imgur it is!

http://i.imgur.com/VYLX4Bl.png

kittehserf
6 years ago

That’s an interesting conclusion he has, Kim. My immediate reaction is to disagree. The obvious question is, what sort of things were people doing? Did it include rotten things like having a pet euthanased? (Yeah, I will go look at the results, this is gut reaction time, lol.)

I’d also say I have had plenty more moments of happiness remembering things I’ve done with Mr K than focussing on the joys of sitting on a tram or drawing hundreds of twiddly little buoys and beacons on charts. I mean, actual, strong, omg happy, the kind that makes you catch your breath, rather than just toodling-along contentment.

::goes to check link::

katz
6 years ago

You guys look like you are having fun. Still on vacation?

titianblue
titianblue
6 years ago

Great photo, @Kittehserf – looks like Mr K has his arm around you.

@Kim Making a note of the “thinking about what you’re doing” thing. Struggling a bit with the black dog a little bit at the moment & I might be able to use that to help. Thanks.

kittehserf
6 years ago

Kim – did you read the comments in the second link? Some interesting ones there, and all thoughtful, about how the type of happiness and the type of mind-wandering aren’t defined (also he seems to use dodgy graphs that exaggerate minor differences).

I liked the comment by the designer who said that if his mind didn’t wander and remind him to buy a birthday present from his wife, he’d be unhappy, and it wouldn’t come from him! XD

titianblue
titianblue
6 years ago

@kittehserf, I wondered if it was as simple as when my mind wanders, it is more likely to wander to the things that are worrying me than to things that make me happy. And if my mind is not wandering, I am more likely to be absorbed/content with what I am doing than the reverse.

You are right, too, though, and it is also a thing that the self-selecting users of this app are going to be first-world. So the things they are concentrating on are unlikely to be horrible or scary ones.

kittehserf
6 years ago

Whoa yes, I hadn’t even thought of the first-world side of it. It’s even more of a thing, since apparently the guy doing it talks about how money and flash cars and so on make you happy. ::eyeroll:: But to come to the conclusion that “being in the moment” is a consistent way to be happy just sounds like a really, really privileged – naw, stuff it, blinkered – view, which seems unaware that horrible or just miserable things happen to people even in the first world on a daily basis.

It’s a toss-up for me whether a wandering mind will mean happy or not. My work was very conducive to mind wanders (it usually wandered straight to WHTM, heheh). I could as easily be thinking about cool stuff we did across the veil as worrying about the earthly future – or just talking shit with the guys (slamming politicians and head office were favourites).

neuroticbeagle
6 years ago

…slamming politicians and head office were favourites.

For a minute I read that as “slamming politicians heads in the office”. It was a confusing, but enjoyable, image.

kittehserf
6 years ago

Hey, my ex boss would be up for that! XD

bluecat
bluecat
6 years ago

@ cassandrakitty

“I met one (a dude, of course) who splained that I wasn’t allowed to call myself a feminist if I wasn’t willing to do sex work. And that was the last time we met up for coffee.”

Dah! (replaces lower jaw).

OK, that’s pretty much the all-time winner of the “daft things guys tell you to invalidate your feminism” category.

I’ve only had “because you have long hair” (hah! I’m bald right now thanks to chemo – can I be a feminist now, pretty please?), “because you’re wearing a skirt”, and variously because “you’re a lesbian” and “you’re straight”… based on no first-hand knowledge of me at all, and no likelihood of ever finding out.

Oh and, “you’re only a feminist because you’ve never had a good lay, let me fix that for you” – by a thoroughly creepy temporary flatmate who was also a would-be amateur psychologist.

On circumcision – I would never allow a son of mine to be circumcised. I know many men who are and have never had any problems with it, but we also knew a family who lost their son, at 8 days old, in a botched circumcision. So – no, not riskless, and I can’t see it. If you’re adult and you really want it, then OK (in fact some Pakistani friends of mine didn’t do it until their sons were 18, though I’m not sure how they’d have reacted if the sons had refused).

But I have never heard of a woman who has been genitally mutilated who did not experience it as loss and pain. I’ve known many women that has happened to, having worked in a region where clitoredectomy is the norm. And the removal of the labia, and the sewing up versions are torture, pure and simple. My daughter-in-law is Kenyan and she won’t go to see her family back there until our grand daughters are older, just in case: the high-risk age is under 7.

@ beegee – big hugs and best of luck.

The nearest person I know to an MRA is my elder brother. He’s a violent bully (I still remember the taste of blood in my mouth when he punched me in the throat), he has an ongoing drink problem, he’s very authoritarian and in the last 30 years he’s become increasingly racist. He shouts people down, he talks over them: if that doesn’t work he threatens to hit them. When I say “them” I mean me, he doesn’t do that to my two younger brothers any more, not since they grew taller than him.

He automatically dismisses any news story about rape or sexual assault as made up, for money or for revenge or just “bitches be crazy”. The only exception is the Jimmy Savile case, as he now claims to have known all about it from a friend who used to work in the studios where some of Savile’s programmes were recorded.

When a sexual assault which had actually happened to my youngest brother as a child came to light (in the context of the revelation of a lot of other sexual assaults and rapes going back 40 years which went on at the school all three of my brothers went to, and which have led to a number of criminal convictions and a former head teacher going on the run) he immediately said “false memory syndrome”. To my brother as he was disclosing it.

So – yeah.

He’s a technophobe, though, and has never used the internet. Which may be just as well.

He gets enough validation from the right-wing newspapers he reads.

MEZ
MEZ
6 years ago

Some quick thoughts….

a). I’m anti-semetic because I said that if Jews acted according to a negative stereotype that it would reinforce the stereotype and lend credibility to the people taking advantage of that stereotype? OK, yeah that’s anti-semetic. 9_9 Obviously, being “good” won’t stop anything, which is why it’s not the Jew’s “fault”. My point was about lending credibility to your oppressors, not being at fault for your oppression. And it should have to go without being said, but obviously Jews are just normal people, with faults, good points, and everything else. Just like I’m filled with faults.

How did we get talking about anti-semetism anyway? There’s just too many differences between anti-semetism (especially with the Nazis) and sexism to even make a comparison or metaphor between the two. I was talking about the Germans, not anyone else.

No-one here is analogous to the Germans. The point was, hate groups take advantage of vulnerable people who are afraid. If you guys want to believe that everyone that gets manipulated into these situations is “a terrible person”, well that’s on you.

b). Are we talking about circumcision or not?

Question; I notice you guys keep on comparing traditional FGM, as it is done on older girls in Africa, to western MGM done on neonates. Did I specify that I was only talking about the West? Maybe I did….

Another question, if we allowed FGM in America, but we restricted it to only the clitoral hood, and mostly done on neonates, how much “better” would it be? Certainly somewhat better, but how much?

Howard, I’m reading your links now.

@contrapangloss
The people here have a history as well. Although I’m an asshole for giving up and trolling them yesterday, you can’t just hand-wave away people getting caught in the “cross-fire”. Maybe some of the regulars here don’t realize how intimidating and mobbing they can get, but they don’t seem to care. Small mistake of wanting some sort of explanation = screeching mob = I don’t care about your feelings, I’m not your mommy = bullies.

Glad I was entertaining for you guys.

Kate
6 years ago

Tracy: I look at it like this. If someone is doing their best to make our relationship a happy one, its a real gift. And if I am in a bad mood for something external to the relationship, its being a very bad gift recipient, at the very least. I need to be cognizant that I am rejecting someone else’s gift to me when I do not appreciate their efforts to make me happy.

kittehserf
6 years ago

Kate, surely the other person knows that they’re not the only thing in your life, though? Would you feel someone was ungrateful if they were unhappy because of other things happening in their life? That seems … I don’t have the words for it, but as if one expects to be the only thing of consequence to one’s partner. It just seems very unrealistic. Being distressed by external matters isn’t a reflection on one’s feelings for one’s partner, or one’s appreciation of them. Should one be happy even if one’s just lost one’s job, or been given a diagnosis of some serious disease, just because one has a loving partner? That seems to be asking far too much of anyone.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

“Self-centered” is the term I would use, and also a bit controlling. There are certainly less controlling and more mutual ways that scenario could play out, but the potential for emotional abuse is really high, and it’s setting up unrealistic expectations in the sense that nobody is happy all the time no matter how much they might try.