Lundy Bancroft is an expert on abusive relationships and the author of Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds Of Angry and Controlling Men, a book I’ve found very helpful not only in understanding abusers but also in understanding the behavior and “activism” of Men’s Rights Activists.
In a recent post on his blog, he warns about the ways in which “Men’s Rights” ideologies can justify, and made worse, abusive behavior from men who are already abusive, or who have abusive tendencies.
In the post, entitled “The Abuser Crusade,” he writes
When a man has some unhealthy relationship patterns to begin with, the last thing he needs is to discover philosophies that actually back up the destructive aspects of how he thinks. Take a guy who is somewhat selfish and disrespectful to begin with, then add in a big dose of really negative influences, and you have a recipe for disaster. And the sad reality is that there are websites, books, and even organizations out there that encourage men to be at their worst rather than at their best when it comes to relating to women.
It’s not surprising that a philosophy rooted in male entitlement would appeal to men who already feel pretty entitled – and often quite bitter that the women in their lives, not to mention the world at large, doesn’t seem to regard them as quite so deserving of adulation as they think they are.
As I’ve mentioned before, I used to think it was unfair to label the Men’s Rights Movement “the abusers’ lobby,” as many domestic violence experts have done, because I felt that the movement did raise some issues that MRAs at least seem to sincerely believe reflect discrimination against men. But the more experience I’ve had with MRAs, the more I’ve begun to see the Men’s Rights Movement not only as an “abusers’ lobby” but as an abusers’ support group, and an abusive force in its own right, promoting forms of “activism” that are little more than semi-organized stalking and harassment of individual women.
It’s not that every MRA is literally a domestic abuser, though I wouldn’t be shocked to find domestic abusers seriously overrepresented in the Men’s Rights ranks; it’s that the Men’s Rights movement promotes abusive ways of thinking and behaving.
In case anyone had any doubt about which groups Bancroft is talking about, he gets specific:
Some of these groups come under the heading of what is known as “Men’s Rights” or “Father’s Rights” groups. Their writings spread the message that women are trying to control or humiliate men, or are mostly focused on taking men’s money. They also tend to promote the idea that women who want to keep primary custody of their children after divorce are evil. The irony is that we live in a country that has refused to pass an amendment to the constitution to guarantee equal rights for women; yet some men are still out there claiming that women have too many rights and that men don’t have enough.
Bancroft also warns about groups preaching a return to patriarchal values:
Other groups don’t use the language of “rights”, but promote abusive thinking by talking about the “natural” roles of men and women. These groups teach, for example, that men are biologically programmed to be the ones making the key decisions, and that women are just naturally the followers of men’s leadership. These philosophies sometimes teach that men and women are just too different to have really close relationships.
In the end, Bancroft urges women whose partners are picking up new philosophies that seem to be making their behavior worse rather than better to start researching the subject themselves, and reaching out to other women in the same situation, in order to better understand what their partners are getting into — and defend themselves against it.
I’m curious how many readers here have had personal experience with men who’ve embraced Men’s or Fathers’ Rights philosophies (or any of the varieties of backwards Manosphere philosophies), or who know of women whose partners have.
@Brz: Par pitié, tais-toi. Eteins l’ordi et va faire quelque chose d’utile, pour changer. Compter les petits pois, par exemple. Ou, je sais pas, moi, entre au monastère. De préférence dans un ordre où on doit faire voeu de silence, comme ça au moins tu feras chier personne. De toutes façons, t’as rien à raconter, donc ça sera pas vraiment une grande perte pour l’humanité.
okay, so the only time i’ve seen feminists (or at least the feminists I hang out around) scoff at mens issues are when they are super duper serious* non existent men’s issues, like the friendzone or evil biased court system not letting men have custody.
or when someone intentionally misinterperts their words and tries to make everything all about the men. FGM not being the same as circumcision DOES NOT MEAN that circumcision is good.
*sarcasm
Mez,
This post and this thread were about the way MRA philosophy validates abusers. Your take away was
1. Feminists are mean to men sometimes so they are to blame
2. This looks like a good time to derail the thread with my opinion on circumcision which is just as bad FGM.
How can you not see how offensive that is?
I’ll repeat what I said earlier. We live in a misogynistic culture. That’s why feminism happened. The backlash against feminism has nothing to do with feminists not being nice enough. Anti-feminists want to return to a more patriarchal culture. Even though things are better than they used to be, men still have most of the privilege and power, but for some men that isn’t enough. They need it all. Those are the men who comprise the MRM.
I’m cosigning the questions others have asked and you haven’t answered. Why does there need to be an MRM to counter feminism? In what way are men being oppressed and marginalized?
Well, @Mez certainly gets lots of points for an impressive derail:.
– Lots of tenacity & determination.
– Accusing feminists of playing oppression olympics whilst, you know, playing oppression olympcis.
– Keeping wording just vague enough to be able to go back & claim not to have said what was clearly implied.
– Plenty of concern trolling and appeals to “objectivity”
I’d give the derail a sound 8/10.
@ Marie
Uh, I flat-out said that I partly blame feminists for men joining the MRM. I don’t know how I could be more clear about it. Women =/= feminists.
PS. I’m a feminist as well, and I’ve been one for the past 15 years, and I’ve just seen some lovely shit done by feminists towards men. Yes, most feminists aren’t anti-male, but I do blame feminism in general for being IMO antagonistic to the discussion and dismissive of men’s issues as “catering to men’s feels”. I gotta love you guys, because a couple of you repeatedly prove my point. 🙂
I don’t think that a discussion about why the MRM exists or why some men get pushed towards it is a derail. Circumcision, I admit, wasn’t part of the original discussion.
This is an excellent point and you are 100% correct. I will be more careful in the future to clarify when I’m specifically referring to cis folks. See, this is why I love you guys; I always learn something new. 🙂
@mez
“”. I gotta love you guys, because a couple of you repeatedly prove my point. :)”
That’s cute. Care to actually say what comments were dismissing men’s issues, or are you just pulling shit out of your ass again.
“I don’t think that a discussion about why the MRM exists or why some men get pushed towards it is a derail. Circumcision, I admit, wasn’t part of the original discussion.”
Well, it totally was.
@girlscientist:
Non!
Brz est amusant. Infinie vanité et compréhension limitée. J’aime la danse de mots.
—
Argh, mi habilidad para hablar francés se ha ido. Y creo que esta frase es incorrecta. Procederé a hablar sólo en signos.
—
What’s the hand signal for “Brz is a fakey-fakey?” Fingers spinning rapidly and sort of making a yapping mouth gesture?
And I blame some feminists for being so bloody concerned about the men and men’s issues that they think other feminists should devote time and effort to them if those other feminists do not want to.
Hell, I get it, you feel very strongly about male infant circumcision. I get that. I agree, it’s a bad thing. If you want to be an activist to fight against it, all power to you. If I can sign a petition for you, just let me know. But don’t expect me to get all fired up about it or any other men’s issues as a feminist. BOr spend lots of my limited time, energy or emotion on them Because they are not feminist issues. They are men’s issues
And other than circumcision, you still have told us what these other pressing issues are.
@fibinachi
Hey, I actually understood the Spanish part of you comment, mostly 😀
I picked Ball because, like Schwyzer, he was a violent misogynist. On top of that, Ball advocated bombing courthouses. I’d say he’s a pretty good candidate.
Well, this is cute. After continuing to derail the conversation with circumcision after being told how annoying that is when that happens, MEZ is now saying that feminists are to blame for pushing men into the MRM because feminists don’t cater to men’s feelings.
This is literally “what about the menz.”
On a feminist misogyny-mocking site. In the comments of an article about domestic abuse.
Ally, I agree, I was sortof joking and mainly just meant they weren’t perfect examples because MRAs haven’t disassociated themselves from these guys, while feminists have from Hugo.
Partly? There was no “partly” in your blame. Stop being a disingenuous dipshit. are you tired from all your prevaricating?
Cute, we’re proving your point. Uh-huh.
What are those men’s issues again?
Sparky: Given hir track record, I expect nothing less from MEZ at this point.
So according to @Mez scenario:
– Men with men’s issues (as yet to be defined) do not start their own movement.
– Instead the men with men’s issues come to feminist spaces and want to discuss men’s issues there.
– The men expect the feminists to stop discussing feminist things in order to discuss the men’s issues.
-The men expect the feminists to stop doing feminist things in order to help the men resolve the men’s issues.
– When the feminists refuse to stop doing the feminist things in order to do what the men want, the men go to the MRM instead, and become anti-feminists.
And according to Mez, the feminists are at least partly to blame for this. Apparently, telling men to fuck off because you are too busy to deal with their problems makes them into misogynists. Who knew?
Serious is anything that lasts more than a day or two.
And the occurence of that, in America, stands at 0%.
“At the very least, most infants don’t receive anesthesia during the procedure, ”
You didn’t follow the links.
Hey, at least this time MEZ admits that she’s trolling. I guess it must be getting hot under the bridge or something.
Also, BRZ is back with another tale of imaginary woe! Granted that the publishing industry isn’t doing so well lately, but still, you might at least try to get this stuff published so that it can be properly filed in the fiction section where it belongs.
I’m just going to leave this little gem from MEZ here for anyone who’s coming in late.
Oh, the terrible history of feminist arsonists. Indeed, that time when Dworkin burned down the Museum of Modern Art was awful and she should be ashamed of herself and…wait.
“Why aren’t feminists being Mummy for the poor menz?”
Funny how women had to start our own movement for our issues, ie, feminism, and yet now you’re complaining, MEZ, that we’re not doing the same for men, who are apparently incapable of doing the same thing.
How about just fucking off?
Yanno, I think it’s past time the buzzing fly, who’s bragged before about how he enjoys abusing people, was banned. I’d also be happy to see MEZ given the boot, because she does nothing but troll and whine at interminable length about feminists Doin It Rong every fucking time she appears here. I know that’s not really a bannable thing, but she’s one hell of a gross troll.
@kittehs
Which trolls bragging about abusing people? 🙁 I didn’t know one of the current ones was.
RE: Ally
If I can only find a PDF… X_X
I CAN ASSIST WITH THIS! 😀 If the link doesn’t work, I’ll send you mine. (And for those of you in such crappy situations you can’t buy or own a physical copy of this book.)
RE: Bon O Bolishus
We say that he should be in better control of himself, but we never say that boy maybe a product of his mums vicious beatings.
I’m a male survivor of rape. And yes, I used to hurt my sister. But I am not a “product of rape,” thank you. I’m a human being with the ability to make choices, and I made the choice to lash out at my sister during the year of sexual abuse I underwent.
It was my choice. A terrible choice that I should not have made. Do not try and excuse my behavior with your bullshit. Do not try and excuse my RAPIST’S behavior with it either.
RE: Brz
mras abuse women simply by stating that they want to be more than women’s disposable toys.
Yeah, because “Fucking your shit up gives me an erection” and “Bash A Violent [Slur] Month” are totally about not wanting to be women’s disposable toys. They’re totally cries of independence. Uh huh.
RE: MEZ
the MRM is often the biggest gig in town when it comes to actually addressing men’s issues.
I’m a man, and I disagree. If I want assistance as a man, I turn to the queer groups, or the trans groups, or the disability groups. Feminism is how I overcame my abuse history. Meanwhile, I’ve had a couple MRAs outright admit there is no place for me in their movement, because I would be required to stop being trans, stop being queer, stop being disabled, because that would be “derailing” or “trying to be a special snowflake.” They aren’t the best game in town for men. They’re the best game in town for white, straight, cis abled guys, and I’m not welcome there.
RE: MEZ
I flat-out said that I partly blame feminists for men joining the MRM.
You really don’t have a lot of faith in my gender’s ability to make decisions for themselves, do you?
Feminism got me through my sexual abuse, my familial history of incest. Does that mean feminism gets the credit for that? Or am I allowed to actually have agency as a fucking adult and claim my accomplishments and failings as my responsibility, no one else’s?
Marie – Brz, the buzzing fly. He’s not doing it in this thread (suddenly he’s all about boundaries), but he was doing it from the get-go when he appeared here. He was all about what a tough fellow he was and how anti-harassment laws are just for the weak and feeble and not Manly French Dudes like himself.
LBT – have you posted The Portrait anywhere yet?
LBT:
FTFY
@Kittehs
thanks for telling me. I couldn’t tell if someone was doing it here and I just had a massive oversight, or it was something I hadn’t seen/ had forgotten.
And hi! 😀 Long time no see :33