Lundy Bancroft is an expert on abusive relationships and the author of Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds Of Angry and Controlling Men, a book I’ve found very helpful not only in understanding abusers but also in understanding the behavior and “activism” of Men’s Rights Activists.
In a recent post on his blog, he warns about the ways in which “Men’s Rights” ideologies can justify, and made worse, abusive behavior from men who are already abusive, or who have abusive tendencies.
In the post, entitled “The Abuser Crusade,” he writes
When a man has some unhealthy relationship patterns to begin with, the last thing he needs is to discover philosophies that actually back up the destructive aspects of how he thinks. Take a guy who is somewhat selfish and disrespectful to begin with, then add in a big dose of really negative influences, and you have a recipe for disaster. And the sad reality is that there are websites, books, and even organizations out there that encourage men to be at their worst rather than at their best when it comes to relating to women.
It’s not surprising that a philosophy rooted in male entitlement would appeal to men who already feel pretty entitled – and often quite bitter that the women in their lives, not to mention the world at large, doesn’t seem to regard them as quite so deserving of adulation as they think they are.
As I’ve mentioned before, I used to think it was unfair to label the Men’s Rights Movement “the abusers’ lobby,” as many domestic violence experts have done, because I felt that the movement did raise some issues that MRAs at least seem to sincerely believe reflect discrimination against men. But the more experience I’ve had with MRAs, the more I’ve begun to see the Men’s Rights Movement not only as an “abusers’ lobby” but as an abusers’ support group, and an abusive force in its own right, promoting forms of “activism” that are little more than semi-organized stalking and harassment of individual women.
It’s not that every MRA is literally a domestic abuser, though I wouldn’t be shocked to find domestic abusers seriously overrepresented in the Men’s Rights ranks; it’s that the Men’s Rights movement promotes abusive ways of thinking and behaving.
In case anyone had any doubt about which groups Bancroft is talking about, he gets specific:
Some of these groups come under the heading of what is known as “Men’s Rights” or “Father’s Rights” groups. Their writings spread the message that women are trying to control or humiliate men, or are mostly focused on taking men’s money. They also tend to promote the idea that women who want to keep primary custody of their children after divorce are evil. The irony is that we live in a country that has refused to pass an amendment to the constitution to guarantee equal rights for women; yet some men are still out there claiming that women have too many rights and that men don’t have enough.
Bancroft also warns about groups preaching a return to patriarchal values:
Other groups don’t use the language of “rights”, but promote abusive thinking by talking about the “natural” roles of men and women. These groups teach, for example, that men are biologically programmed to be the ones making the key decisions, and that women are just naturally the followers of men’s leadership. These philosophies sometimes teach that men and women are just too different to have really close relationships.
In the end, Bancroft urges women whose partners are picking up new philosophies that seem to be making their behavior worse rather than better to start researching the subject themselves, and reaching out to other women in the same situation, in order to better understand what their partners are getting into — and defend themselves against it.
I’m curious how many readers here have had personal experience with men who’ve embraced Men’s or Fathers’ Rights philosophies (or any of the varieties of backwards Manosphere philosophies), or who know of women whose partners have.
On another note, @cassandrakitty bait.
I also read Mr. Bancroft’s book and found it very informative and fascinating. It puts many puzzle pieces together and debunks the many myths about what “causes” angry, controlling, and abusive men. It also exposes their excuses and justifications for what they are, BS.
Highly recommend, in fact, I gave copies to my 20-something daughters.
I hear so much of my sadistic and extremist father in the crap that the MRAs peddle that I would swear that he wrote their handbook for them. I haven’t seen him in 35 years, which shows that the twisted mindset they share is nothing new. Fortunately, my husband of 27 years is nothing like them, and for that I’m thankful.
Omg, thefreeair, that is sick and horrifying!
Re: LBT
Yeah, I hope he can get better, but I’m not depending on it. I’ve seen people get better about their bigotry, but I just feel like it’s foolish to count on it at this point. I just really want to have someone in the family that I can be pansexual, capitalism-critical, socially-liberal, feminist, atheist me around without any qualms, but it just feels like I’m doomed to make awkward smalltalk about the weather with all my relatives forever because everything interesting will unleash a torrent of hatred and gross opinions about how the gender wage gap doesn’t exist and there’s no such thing as racism anymore :/
(At least little bro doesn’t buy into the post-racial America thing; he’s got my back there, at least. For now, at any rate.)
@cloudiah: As another metal-head and lover of cats, I was super-disappointed that the previews did not include a picture Rob Halford, Abbath, Ozzy Osbourne, or Scott Ian with a kitty. I feel ripped-off, I tell you! D:
@thefreeair: Um, okay, wow. That is creepy as shit, even for MRAs. Most MRAs don’t usually sink to the depths of pedophilia and incest. D:
My dad has been a douche his entire life, as long as I’ve known him at least. He truly is a person with some good intentions, but serious social issues that have led him to have very few close relationships, and a complete inability to manage personal relationships. There were incidences of physical violence against me, my siblings, and my mom. Not stuff that left us with bruises, but enough that the police were called once. It was a constant them of my childhood, my dad’s changing moods and the constant intimidation he tried to impose. I have no idea why my mother married him, but I save it had to do with self-worth issues and also her beliefs in “traditional gender roles” and habits of saying things like, “I know men and women are equal, but the bible says the man is the head of the household- but not in a bad way!” and such bullshit.
Come to find out, when I took gender studies classes, they mentioned the 90s MRA movement, wherein men would go on “man retreats” and beat drums in the woods and such. This rang a bell to me, I mentioned it to my mom, and sure enough…
I’m sure if my dad was tech savvy enough to use reddit, he would agree with a ton of stuff on the MRA reddit. Its perfect for him bc he continues to insist that he was a victim of the divorce, it was all my mom’s fault, and that his children’s issues with him are a result of their own emotional/relationship issues rather than his, despite the fact that all of us have many close relationships and he has none, save with his mother. Anyway, it was a HORRIBLE way to grow up and I think is the main reason it’s hard for me to let go in romantic relationships. If I ever felt like a dude I was seeing was even vaguely getting into that shit, I would end things so fucking fast, there would be no pause on my part. The emotional manipulation and selfishness advocated by those groups is fucking disgusting, and I saw and let firsthand the effect of it on the people he was close to. I dont think MRA is the cause of it, but I have no doubt it exacerbates issues people already have, and can give them a sense of validation which makes true self-evaluation and compromise on their part impossible.
A lot of people have told me about Bancroft’s book, and now I’m interested in reading it. My abusive dad isn’t one to identify with any political label, but his views about marriage were (and probably still are) very similar to those of FRAs. I feel that reading it would help me cope with the emotional abusive treatment I’ve received from various men, especially my father. If I can only find a PDF… X_X
@ cloudiah
@thefreeair Thank you so much for sharing your story. It’s always nice to hear something from the inside.
Reading the comments folk have made about their stepdads got me to thinking of mine. I had two, since my mother married three times. The first was stern and not above using a fraternity paddle on our bare butts when we were kids and I really hated him. But the second was a wonderful man. He taught me to ride a bike and he was always there when we needed him.
I used to go camping with him in the Blue Ridge Mountains of West Virginia. We would stop and listen to men and women playing guitars and singing Appalachian folk songs, which inspired me to become a folksinger for many years. We also walked in the woods and recited poetry.
I long to go down to the seas again
To the lonely sea and the sky
And all I ask is a tall ship
And a star to steer her by.
John Masefield, one of dads favorite poets. I never saw him again after the divorce when I was twelve, but I will always remember him warmly. Hope that wherever he is, alive or not, he is happy.
I just realized that I had intended to post my last post on the “When stepfathers abuse…” page. Sorry about that.
The “rage-meets-victim-complex” you described sounds EXACTLY like my abusive ex. He always had really grandiose expectations about how successful, respected and powerful he should be, but no real way of meeting those expectations (he was technically homeless for most of our relationship).
That sounds a lot like my dad. Just thinking about how he treats me makes me feel ill. He’s so toxic that even after moving 2000 miles away from him he manages to manipulate me.
I feel trapped and afraid whenever he’s around. He knows exactly how to manipulate me and guilt-trip me until I start crying. I feel for anyone else who has had to deal with men like him. It’s like a nightmare sometimes.
FTFY
Personally I love the MRA boards and MRM discussions, as well as the MGTOW movement. My whole life i have felt that being a man had nothing to do with how well I was liked by women, how much money I made or how well I treated my children. Yet every where I turned I was reminded to be good to women (irrelevant of how they treated me) make enough money to be an eligilbe male suitable to care for a woman, and be a great and supportive role model for your kids. I felt I needed confirmation that it was okay to share my feelings openly etc. I surrounded myself with women my whole life in hopes of finding that space and it wasn;t until I joined a mens group that I actually found my voice. There is something very different about communing with men, being around others who share the same frustrations and joys. Being a man and having men’s issues is a totally separate issue from womens issues, there will undoubtedly be some overlap, but men are allowed to have their issus and alot of them are actually valid. Some men choose to become angry and spew hate, but that is how those individuals choose to deal with their pain. That doesn;t mean the whole movement is flawed or in some way corrupt. Individuals have choices and can decide for themselves what is valid and what isnt. I am not interested in militarizing my male rights. I am also not interested in blindly treating women like lost puppies. I would like to find a happy medium where I can be wlecome by women and express my frustrations as a man. What is wrong with that?
It would appear that it is not okay for men to reject this society, it is not okay for men to want to break traditional roles and discuss issues that are relevant to their own experiences. that is sad to me, I can see here that it is not ok for men to have their own feelings and emotions that may run counter to women;s beliefs. And if they are allowed it’s only because it has been vetted by the strong arm of the anti MRA gang. I find that sad and destructive.
We love to talk about angry men, violent men. We hate talking about how that man became angry. If we do it’s because of an abusive stepfather or father, never an abusive mother. We say that he should be in better control of himself, but we never say that boy maybe a product of his mums vicious beatings. Even though domestic violence is a genderless crime all we ever hear about or see is the male side. That is really unfair. Especially when the vast majority of domestic abuse occurs at the hand of the mother.
I am a single dad, I date women regularly. I am appalled at how many women conduct themselves, their expectations etc… but that doesn’t mean that all women who are date eligible are dumb abd stupid moneygrubbers. It just means that there are a a certain percentage of women who are. Its the same for men. Not all men are as you describe them, when you stop pigeonholing us you might actually find some of what we are saying holds some value.
I find that many of the comments on this board are just as ignorant as many of the comments on the MRA boards and the feminist boards, it goes to show you that stupidity and ignorance and small mindedness are not specific to one gender or belief.
@gnl – “if you also want to shut down Feminism and environmentalism and the NAACP and White Nationalism and intactivism.”
Ummm, no. It’s a false equivalency.
Also, shutting down White Nationalism sounds like a good thing, to me.
As for intactivism, I’m off to the dictionary for that one. I have no idea.
AH! OK, it’s about circumcision.
I see no medical benefits, whatsoever, to female genital mutilation or “female circumcision,” but there are a slew of dangerous effects. Male circumcision is problematic, in that it does appear to have some medical benefits. Whether those medical benefits outweigh the negatives, I could not say. It seems to be a topic of much debate in the medical world.
If I had my wish, I would make the procedure available to any adult male who wanted it done, with fully informed consent.
It *IS* a sticky wicket, though, since freedom of religion is an American constitutional right, and coming from a heritage of a people whose religious rights were trampled by that government, I don’t want that government to trample anyone else’s religious rights.
I wonder if we could convince the religious leaders of the various sects that require circumcision to come to an agreement that the ordinance/sacrament/whatever they call it be delayed until the person reaches maturity and can give proper consent. I doubt it, but hey, It’s 3 o’clock in the morning, and I can wish, right?
On that note, off to bed.
Why did I keep reading?
Thefreeair – I have no words. That is just gut-wrenching. I’m so sorry you had to go through that, and your poor brother! Jedi hugs to all of you!
And now I really have to shut down and get off-line before I get really depressed. Wow.
I’m always baffled at how people like genderneutrallanguage see the world. “Misandric male bashing?” Where? Are these people seeing random commas in all the wrong places? So, instead of seeing “men who are abusive often do X”, they see “men, who are abusive, often do X”. Is that what it’s about? Random comma syndrome? It certainly fits in with the rest of the punctuation fails that plague the MRM.
But yeah, genderneutrallanguage, what others have said. You can’t make an issue gender neutral if it really, really, really isn’t. Acknowledging the fact that men in general are more violent than women in general isn’t male bashing; it’s acknowledging that we, as men, are socially conditioned to solve our problems with violence. It’s harmful to us, sure, but it’s more harmful to women, who are discouraged from answering violence with violence. Toxic masculinity is the fallout of a patriarchal society, which is part of the reason why feminism opposes patriarchal beliefs. Domestic violence is a particularly ugly form of violence rooted in male entitlement, the belief that a man owns his wife and children. No comparable “female entitlement” exists, no matter how much MRAs like to twist and turn reality to fit their ideology.
It’s nice to think that we’re all equal, and should all just be gender equalists instead of feminists. It’s comforting to think there is no behaviour that hurts primarily one gender. It is, as you should know by now, untrue. You can’t pretend society is ideologically neutral and that only random individuals who actively embrace an ideology cause trouble in this otherwise fair and just word. White male supremacism, capitalism, and other institutionalized forms of oppression hurt people who are not part the group those ideologies are promoting, and only by actively opposing the ideas that are so deeply ingrained in our consciousness that we see them as ‘neutral’ and ‘default’ can we slowly start making things more equal.
I’ve said it before, but neutrality is not another word for objectivity. Being objective requires you to see why in certain situations, the playing field is not level. Treating it like it was level is not a sign of objectivity, but of willful disregard of facts.
Kinda like claiming domestic violence is gender neutral.
OT about random commas: best I ever saw was a personal ad from an English paper decades ago. “Housekeeper wanted. Non-smoking cat, lover mandatory.”
I’d love to know if the position was filled.
long time lurker whom all of you regular commenters have helped so much. delurking because of a huge ping – this site has a post about Lundy Bancroft’s work! It’s like one big vegemite and haloumi cheese sandwich popping out of my internets for midnight snacks 🙂
LBs book gave me the explanations and reason to extricate myself from abusive ex – garden variety, textbook case. the police were extremely aware, helpful and thankfully effective in facilitating this. Lundy has my profound, effusive thanks for lifting the curtain on the smoke and mirrors. And so do you, Dave, for keeping the spotlight on them with even the odd snorty laugh to be had among the churning crud. My ex went on to actively espouse and promote many MRA views, loudly and uncharacteristically actively, to anyone he knew that knew me and would listen – because I’d ‘made him that way’.
after the purchase of a new irony meter with a better warranty (look what you made me do!), I can only conclude that the MRA provides a focal point for those chaps who actually experience repercussions for being abusive. as LB points out, until very recently there have generally been very few for them, let alone legal ones. I think MRA platforms just gave my ex the words and the support to articulate what he’d always believed, only he’d never had to seek them out amongst dissenting voices before. and that actually gives me hope, because they’re unlikely to change but at least they’re all seething in one pit.
@Bon O Bolishus: Paragraph breaks, man, paragraph breaks. They make reading a whole lot easier.
As for some of the points I had to dig through that wall o’ text to get:
Dude, let’s make one thing perfectly clear: the male experience is not a secret. Men are not silenced in a society that is revolving around men. The only people who want to keep men from expressing their vulnerability are people who subscribe to toxic masculinity, that is, generally other men.
The reason I didn’t have any male friends to speak of growing up and why the number of male friends I have now can be counted with the fingers on one hand is precisely because I am very emotional and don’t conform to the traditional male gender role, and I have always been bullied and ridiculed because of it. By other men. Not by women, and most certainly not by feminists. Who, by the way, don’t like traditional gender roles.
Oh, great, because being a man is just sooooooo much a unique experience, no woman can possibly have felt anything remotely like a man in any situation.
Having male friends is not a bad thing. Subscribing to toxic notions about a man’s role in relation to society is. The MRM does the latter. Read some of their stuff, and you’ll see a large part of them insists that men are violent and dominating by nature, and having any emotions besides rage is for women. Go on, I’ll wait. Meanwhile, I’ll just remind you that feminists don’t believe in traditional gender roles.
No, but the fact that the vast majority of prominent MRAs condone violence against people they don’t like is evidence enough. The mythical, elusive ‘moderate MRA’, if he or she exists, is in the minority. Do you even read what men’s righters write?
Also, you’re making excuses for bullies by claiming their violent rhetoric comes from pain instead of a sense of entitlement. I’ll come back to that in a little bit.
Again, nothing. The fact that you think you’ll find that with the MRAs tells me you’re an ignoramus of the highest degree. Also, it depends on what these frustrations are. If you want to vent about society and its fucked-up gender roles, there are plenty of places to do that, especially in feminist circles. Did I mention that feminists agree that gender roles suck? On the other hand, if you just want to blame women for an inadequate sex life or otherwise place the blame for the evils of the world on women, then a hate site like A Voice for Men might just be up your alley.
Bullshit. Men are allowed to do that just fine. Also, make up your mind: do you think gender roles are stupid, or do you think men experience some biological reality that women can never hope to understand because they’re too different from us?
Umm… Where is this “here” you’re talking about? This site? Because I’m a man, and I’ve never felt anything but welcome here. Could it be that you do think that women are terrible, and you attribute the fact that the men here don’t believe women are terrible to “political correctness gone mad” instead of, you know, the men here actually not believing that women are terrible? Is that so unthinkable? Contrary to your claims, anti-feminists and MRAs are the ones who like to engage in doxing, harassing and threatening individuals who disagree with them, not the social justice crowd.
First off, citation needed for, like, 80% of this shit. “Genderless crime”? Really? “The vast majority of domestic abuse occurs at the hands of the mother”? REALLY?
As for the rest, are you fucking kidding me? Society constantly blames mothers for their children’s behaviour. Fathers and the toxic masculine ideas they instill in their sons are curiously enough rarely discussed when some violent man does something violent. Blame is almost always placed on some woman in their life. Society loves to try to understand and defend bullies, and because of male entitlement, the belief that men are superior to women and are entitled to attention from women and other shit simply because of their maleness, bullies are almost always men.
I’m not going to bother with the rest, since you are clearly making stuff up. I have seen no evidence that feminists engage in remotely the same kind of ignorant entitlement-based ragewank that MRAs do. False equivalency is false.
Is it nice living inside a box?
@kittehserf: That’s hilarious! I kinda imagine this is how a cat would do housekeeping:
I’ve been labelled abusive by a feminist with whom I had a short relationship a few months ago. I knew that she wasn’t being exclusive to me and I was fine with that, but one day, she told me that she had a crush on a guy and went on narrating the story of their encounter, I responded to her coldly that I didn’t want to hear any of that and that I felt disrespected and she accused me of being abusive, as well as being a potential woman-beater, for… to speak in a feminist language, assessing boundaries in a cold tone.
At this moment, I got it. For her and all the women who think like her, men aren’t people, they’re toys whose only purpose is to please them, toys they can play with, they can crush whenever they want to. Toys aren’t suppose to complain or feel pain, so if a toy hurt your feels by being cold after you did something mean to it, you can’t possibly have done anything wrong, you’re just being abused by a defective toy.
If you think that men are toys, it makes sense to think that mras are abusers when there’s no evidence showing that the proportion of abusive men is greater among mras than, for example, male feminists (where’s a proeminent mra equivalent of Hugo shwyzer?), mras abuse women simply by stating that they want to be more than women’s disposable toys.
I respect people boundaries, I try as much as I can to not hurt others, but for some people the mere fact that I have some boundaries and opinions of my own is in itself offensive and abusive because they think I should rather just be a toy. This young feminist said to me: “mais pour qui est-ce que tu prends?”. I think I’m a human being and each time you call someone like me a whiny fedora-wearing neck-bearded privileged assholish abusive loser who should never be with women ever I take it as a reminder that I should feel no guilt for refusing to be a toy.
Anarchonist – ALL THE APPLAUSE for those comments, also for avoiding the claws of the Blockquote Monster.
I never thought of Max-Arthur and his roomba riding with that ad, but you’re right, that’s just how a cat would do it. Love all the Helen’s Pets videos.
Bon O Bolishus:
No, see, if you have children, then yes, of course, you are expected to treat them well and take care of them. That has nothing to do with being a man or a woman and everything to do with being a parent.
I’m getting really fucking sick of this notion. The idea that hateful people are hateful because they just hurt so damn much, and can’t you show a little compassion?
Heh heh. Now we’re the “strong arm of the anti-MRA gang.” But please, point me to where anyone here has said that men aren’t allowed to have feelings?
Won’t somebody think of the angry, violent men?
Again, please point out where men are “pigeonholed” or are considered completely without value.
Really? Have you actually read the comments on MRA boards? You might want to go through the archives here and get back to us on that one. Cause, no one here excuses violent behavior, makes rape and/or death threats, excuses making rape and/or death threats, engages in rape apology and/or abuse apology, doxxes people, excusing the doxxing of people, regularly refers to people using gendered slurs, are racist, are homophobic, are transphobic, – I really could go on for a long time here. But please, link to actual evidence of this. Please link to or point out an article and/or comment, made by a regular and not a troll, that is as hateful as what MRAs spew on a daily basis. Please do that.
I’m not sure I’ve ever known anyone who actually identified as an MRA in real life, but I have known some people who might have been, and a handful of regular misogynists. Years ago, in college, there was an older man in one of my classes who was constantly speaking up about gendered issues, spouting the general MRA talking points. It wasn’t a gender studies class at all, so it always seemed really weird and out of place. I remember the class laughing at him when, out of the blue, he said “Men shouldn’t have to pay child support because it’s a woman’s body.” The most memorable thing he ever said, though, was trying to argue that sex should be included at the bottom of Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs, because “it’s something animals do”. At the time, that comment was a head scratcher, but now that I think about it, an MRA thinking that sex was a need so basic that it could be considered a human right like food and shelter is not that strange.
I suspect my brother is getting into MRA nonsense, but I don’t really interact with him enough to know for sure. I feel kind of bad for him; he has some anxiety issues (I mean, my siblings and I all have some anxiety issues, but it sounds like his are worse) and my sister says he is a narcissist. He very well might be. He’s 28, chronically unemployed since finishing college. My parents pay his rent and bills so he can have an apartment, but he spends half his time at their house anyways (If you ask him, he’ll tell you they never gave him anything). He’s verbally abusive towards my mother, who continues to dote on him. I offered to put his resume in at my work for a temp job, once. Not the best job, but pay was $10/hr, and I know three people who went on to permanent, better positions starting at this job. He refused it, because he refuses to work for (Canadian) minimum wage. What difference does it make how much you earn when you’ve got mom and dad paying the bills anyways? A few months ago my mom said he called her something, she couldn’t remember what, but it was “like a male chauvinist pig, but against men”. Ugh.