Lundy Bancroft is an expert on abusive relationships and the author of Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds Of Angry and Controlling Men, a book I’ve found very helpful not only in understanding abusers but also in understanding the behavior and “activism” of Men’s Rights Activists.
In a recent post on his blog, he warns about the ways in which “Men’s Rights” ideologies can justify, and made worse, abusive behavior from men who are already abusive, or who have abusive tendencies.
In the post, entitled “The Abuser Crusade,” he writes
When a man has some unhealthy relationship patterns to begin with, the last thing he needs is to discover philosophies that actually back up the destructive aspects of how he thinks. Take a guy who is somewhat selfish and disrespectful to begin with, then add in a big dose of really negative influences, and you have a recipe for disaster. And the sad reality is that there are websites, books, and even organizations out there that encourage men to be at their worst rather than at their best when it comes to relating to women.
It’s not surprising that a philosophy rooted in male entitlement would appeal to men who already feel pretty entitled – and often quite bitter that the women in their lives, not to mention the world at large, doesn’t seem to regard them as quite so deserving of adulation as they think they are.
As I’ve mentioned before, I used to think it was unfair to label the Men’s Rights Movement “the abusers’ lobby,” as many domestic violence experts have done, because I felt that the movement did raise some issues that MRAs at least seem to sincerely believe reflect discrimination against men. But the more experience I’ve had with MRAs, the more I’ve begun to see the Men’s Rights Movement not only as an “abusers’ lobby” but as an abusers’ support group, and an abusive force in its own right, promoting forms of “activism” that are little more than semi-organized stalking and harassment of individual women.
It’s not that every MRA is literally a domestic abuser, though I wouldn’t be shocked to find domestic abusers seriously overrepresented in the Men’s Rights ranks; it’s that the Men’s Rights movement promotes abusive ways of thinking and behaving.
In case anyone had any doubt about which groups Bancroft is talking about, he gets specific:
Some of these groups come under the heading of what is known as “Men’s Rights” or “Father’s Rights” groups. Their writings spread the message that women are trying to control or humiliate men, or are mostly focused on taking men’s money. They also tend to promote the idea that women who want to keep primary custody of their children after divorce are evil. The irony is that we live in a country that has refused to pass an amendment to the constitution to guarantee equal rights for women; yet some men are still out there claiming that women have too many rights and that men don’t have enough.
Bancroft also warns about groups preaching a return to patriarchal values:
Other groups don’t use the language of “rights”, but promote abusive thinking by talking about the “natural” roles of men and women. These groups teach, for example, that men are biologically programmed to be the ones making the key decisions, and that women are just naturally the followers of men’s leadership. These philosophies sometimes teach that men and women are just too different to have really close relationships.
In the end, Bancroft urges women whose partners are picking up new philosophies that seem to be making their behavior worse rather than better to start researching the subject themselves, and reaching out to other women in the same situation, in order to better understand what their partners are getting into — and defend themselves against it.
I’m curious how many readers here have had personal experience with men who’ve embraced Men’s or Fathers’ Rights philosophies (or any of the varieties of backwards Manosphere philosophies), or who know of women whose partners have.
thefreeair, thanks for your comment. I removed the name of the pamphlet because it could be used to identify your stepdad and (though I believe your story) I don’t feel comfortable with that, as I haven’t verified the info, I don’t know you, etc.
Wow. Just floored by thefreeair’s story. A more classic case of abuser-lobbyism is hard to imagine. Not a bit surprised to learn that the MR(B)M and Warren Farrell were in the mix, either.
“Compassion for men and boys”, huh.
thefreeair ,
I’m so sorry.
Aw, genderneutrallanguage has come back. They should go hang out with Asixpack.
misandric male bashing.
How exactly are Bancroft’s words male-bashing? Because it actually talks about MEN? You really are reaching here.
The argument that because MRA philosophies, just like Feminism and envionmentalism, can be twisted into something sick we should shut it down only works if you also want to shut down Feminism and environmentalism and the NAACP and White Nationalism and intactivism.
Okay. What’s a NON-sick version of MRA philosophies? Please, link us. I really want to know.
RE: WWTH
Since when do the majority of feminists advocate abuse or promote rape?
But consent law is TOTALLY like rape guys! Totally!
RE: BreakfastMan
Of course we want to shut down White Nationalism. Why the hell wouldn’t we?
You noticed that but NOT the KKK? Seriously, GNL really doesn’t seem to realize that some movements are overall douchier than others. For instance, the KKK and Malcom X? Not even remotely comparable. The KKK hanged and terrorized a fucking demographic for a fucking century. Malcom X… tried to organize neighborhood protection when white cops were doing nothing for black folks.
RE: thefreeair
Jesus. I’m sorry your stepdad was such a douchenozzle, and I’m glad he’s no longer a part of your life.
@David, yes probably for the best that you redacted the title. I don’t think it’s still kicking around since it was University published and as far as I remember didn’t hit the internet, but better to be on the safe side.
@Bina and Lea,
Thank you for your thoughts. Fortunately, I’ve been able to move past that period of my life and now I mostly just laugh at MRAs.
@thefreeair
That story is horrifying. I’m sorry all of you had to endure that from him.
And MRAs get all up at feminists for supposedly saying that “women can’t do anything wrong.”
Thank you for sharing your story Freeair.
It’s sad, but not surprising at all unfortunately.
Wow, thefreeair, that must have been terrible. Glad you made it out okay!
Dang, thefreeair, that’s a crazy story. I’m sorry you and your brothers went through that. Your description of your stepdad’s “rage-meets victim complex” is really perceptive.
Welcome, thefreeair, thank you for sharing that.
@thefreeair, I am sorry too…but thanks for sharing your story.
@ genderneutrallanguage – I have to take issue with just about everything you said.
There was nothing misandric about pointing out that many men who have anger and relationship issues, and who subscribe to MRA philosophies, tend to be violent in some way.
Neither Feminism, Environmentalism nor the NAACP advocate stalking, violent language, violent actions, or the removal or civil rights from any one group. MRM’s and MRA’s do, and they are organizations for, by and about MEN. White Nationalism is the same, except they encourage women to hate as much as the men. MRA and White Nationalist philosophies do not have to be “twisted” into something sick. They already ARE sick, in toto.
And I agree with Ally – Shoo.
So sorry to hear about that thefreeair.
(Actually just got back from Edmonton, visiting friends, family and furries. Hi again all.)
@thefreeair
That must have been terrible growing up with such a raging asshole of a stepfather. I am happy to hear that you were able to move on, though 🙂
I just read Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds Of Angry and Controlling Men last week. I saw my college library had it and blazed through all of it in an afternoon. I found it incredibly enlightening.
I don’t have the book in front of me now, but I recall a section where Bancroft was describing different types of abusers. He called one type “The Victim” – which was partially characterized by believing that men are abused by women more than the reverse and that women control the legal system. For a book that’s twelve years old, what Bancroft described is very close to the beliefs heralded by today’s MRAs.
Welp, a former neighbour of mine likes to insist that feminists have as many violent members as the MRM, but the only example he can point to is Tumblr feminism. He also likes to insist that all the bile-spewing members of the MRM are just outliers, but when I ask him to point me to an MRA space that’s more representative of the movement, I hear crickets.
A former high school friend of mine, same thing basically. He actually did link to a few sites, but one was totally ableist, others were really obscure and didn’t have a following, and the rest didn’t identify as part of the MRM (one, in fact, clearly stated it had nothing to do with the MRM).
Aaannd one of my exes never identified as an MRA but did use eerily similar language at times. Giney tingles (I still shudder in revulsion), alpha this, and had a kind of Nice GuyTM attitude.
RE: Alex
the only example he can point to is Tumblr feminism.
I have pretty low opinions of tumblr, but have any tumblr feminists actually stalked and doxed guys for existing on the Internet? Because that’s something I’ve only seen MRAs do.
I don’t know anyone who identifies as an MRA or their nasty brethren, but I’m afraid my little brother will come under that kind of influence. He’s headed off to university this year, and while I really hope he takes a women’s or gender studies course or at least Soc 101, I really doubt he will, as the rest of my family thinks such courses are, at best, useless. I wish I had more of a relationship with him so I could talk to him about it, but I moved out for university myself when he was in middle school, and every time I came back to visit, it seemed like more and more of my dad’s douchey attitudes about gender roles had rubbed off on him, plus the gross entitlement that comes with being a white, cis, male, athletic, attractive, popular teenager.
I guess I’m partially just bummed because I had high hopes in him for at least one family member who wasn’t a gross, misogynistic, homophobic asshole, and I don’t see that being in the cards so much anymore, but I really do worry about him, too. I just hope he escapes the stew of awful prejudices that he’s been raised to think are normal. *Sigh*
@freetheair – I’m so sorry that you went through all that. Glad you’ve found some closure with it, though!
thefreeair,
Wow. Really sorry you went through that, and thanks for sharing your experience.
RE: dustedeste
If it helps, remember that college isn’t the end of learning. Your brother might change and grow the fuck up.
My brother was a Grade-A asshat throughout his teens… basically the dudebro party jerk stereotype. He took our coming out the worst, and I cut off all contact with him for two years, coming back only after our parents had cut him off and he was depressed and self-medicating with drugs.
Funny, he seemed a lot less douchey to us when we were calling to help him out after that. And he’s one of the two people we still talk to in the family.
Thefreeair, thank you for sharing. I’m sorry you and your family had to deal w/that guy. He sounds awful.
Thank you everyone, for your kind words.
I don’t think of my stepdad often, but now that he’s on my mind, one thing that strikes me is that the language of the movement I grew up with (in the late 90s, early 2000s) was a lot more careful with how it presented itself and the language it used. I think this may be because it wasn’t happening amongst a bunch of anonymous internet tough guys, so the official party line was always “Feminists suck” and never “women suck.”
Of course, the same misogynist messages and motives were behind it all, but the language was very cuddly Warren Farrell and not so much Rage Boner.
I was a budding feminist, but the term was so demonized for me that when I discovered it for myself in University, I was surprised by how non-hateful it was. Whenever I would advance notions of female equality, I was always told I could of course be whatever I wanted to be but gently reminded of my physical limitations (the old, “I’d want a 6 ft, 200lb dude carrying me out of a burning building” bit). For years, even while I had very feminist views, I always called myself a “gender equalitarian” instead of a feminist.
The interesting thing, thinking about PUA/MRA intersection, is that stepdad actually had a lot of old school books on how to pick up women. For all the talk of feminism teaching women to exploit men, it’s pretty clear looking back that he was sticking it out with my mom for room and board while he finished school.
I used to go down to his study and talk to him because I was always reading books from his library and wanted to pick his brain (I think he loved this, because he was never happier then when he was pontificating to a rapt audience). Of course I cut these chats off when he suggested to me, at age 13, that maybe in a few years “if it [didn’t] work out with [my mom]” he and I could get together. Of course, he made sure to emphasize that it would be after I turned 18, so I guess he thought he wasn’t being a total creep about.
My only brush with real life MRAs wasn’t even a real MRA. My friend’s boyfriend wanted to get into men’s issues stuff (like, real men’s issues) and mentioned that he’d seen some MRA stuff and was interested. I sent him a link to AVFM with no commentary added, and he messaged me back: “This looks like a hate group.” That was all it took to scare him off the misters.
ohmydog! ohmydog! All the ick.