Lundy Bancroft is an expert on abusive relationships and the author of Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds Of Angry and Controlling Men, a book I’ve found very helpful not only in understanding abusers but also in understanding the behavior and “activism” of Men’s Rights Activists.
In a recent post on his blog, he warns about the ways in which “Men’s Rights” ideologies can justify, and made worse, abusive behavior from men who are already abusive, or who have abusive tendencies.
In the post, entitled “The Abuser Crusade,” he writes
When a man has some unhealthy relationship patterns to begin with, the last thing he needs is to discover philosophies that actually back up the destructive aspects of how he thinks. Take a guy who is somewhat selfish and disrespectful to begin with, then add in a big dose of really negative influences, and you have a recipe for disaster. And the sad reality is that there are websites, books, and even organizations out there that encourage men to be at their worst rather than at their best when it comes to relating to women.
It’s not surprising that a philosophy rooted in male entitlement would appeal to men who already feel pretty entitled – and often quite bitter that the women in their lives, not to mention the world at large, doesn’t seem to regard them as quite so deserving of adulation as they think they are.
As I’ve mentioned before, I used to think it was unfair to label the Men’s Rights Movement “the abusers’ lobby,” as many domestic violence experts have done, because I felt that the movement did raise some issues that MRAs at least seem to sincerely believe reflect discrimination against men. But the more experience I’ve had with MRAs, the more I’ve begun to see the Men’s Rights Movement not only as an “abusers’ lobby” but as an abusers’ support group, and an abusive force in its own right, promoting forms of “activism” that are little more than semi-organized stalking and harassment of individual women.
It’s not that every MRA is literally a domestic abuser, though I wouldn’t be shocked to find domestic abusers seriously overrepresented in the Men’s Rights ranks; it’s that the Men’s Rights movement promotes abusive ways of thinking and behaving.
In case anyone had any doubt about which groups Bancroft is talking about, he gets specific:
Some of these groups come under the heading of what is known as “Men’s Rights” or “Father’s Rights” groups. Their writings spread the message that women are trying to control or humiliate men, or are mostly focused on taking men’s money. They also tend to promote the idea that women who want to keep primary custody of their children after divorce are evil. The irony is that we live in a country that has refused to pass an amendment to the constitution to guarantee equal rights for women; yet some men are still out there claiming that women have too many rights and that men don’t have enough.
Bancroft also warns about groups preaching a return to patriarchal values:
Other groups don’t use the language of “rights”, but promote abusive thinking by talking about the “natural” roles of men and women. These groups teach, for example, that men are biologically programmed to be the ones making the key decisions, and that women are just naturally the followers of men’s leadership. These philosophies sometimes teach that men and women are just too different to have really close relationships.
In the end, Bancroft urges women whose partners are picking up new philosophies that seem to be making their behavior worse rather than better to start researching the subject themselves, and reaching out to other women in the same situation, in order to better understand what their partners are getting into — and defend themselves against it.
I’m curious how many readers here have had personal experience with men who’ve embraced Men’s or Fathers’ Rights philosophies (or any of the varieties of backwards Manosphere philosophies), or who know of women whose partners have.
But she’s a feminist, you guys. Not only a feminist, best feminist. The rest of us are ruining feminism and driving men into MRA-dom. Not, you know, you men right here, you don’t count because reasons.
MEZ would have to have the strangest take on feminism I’ve ever seen from a so-called feminist.
serrana,
Any time. 😉
Beegee,
Hugs and support.
Big tent and all, but yeah, I think we’re going to need a special little roped off section for this one.
Kind of an anti-VIP area?
Like the table at a wedding where you stick the relatives who you had to invite so as not to offend your parents but who you don’t actually like.
I think this relative is one who wouldn’t get an invite, regardless of what the parents thought.
Come to that I doubt the parents would want her there, either.
Wow… I disappear for a few days, and things get busy! Just read through the thread, and oh-my!
First thought:
Beegee, you’re doing the right thing. Positive brainwaves to you, as you try to escape financial and emotional abuse.
Second thought:
My father is amazing. He treats everyone with respect (well, and some gentle teasing). He also is worried about young men in America, the high rates of divorce, and broken homes. He firmly believes that there are neurological and physical distinctions between men and women, with high amounts of variability in those traits (which means gender distinctions are not absolute). He also believes that Radfem has contributed, somewhat and somehow, to some young men’s problems.
However, in our long talks (debates), he’s never said that young men’s anger was justified. He’s never said feminists should solve their problems for them.
He has advocated for old men being willing to tell young men when they are being idiots.
He’s said men need to form real friendships and be willing to be emotionally vulnerable with other men, instead of confiding in women (because they are less threatening, or seem like comforters) and then getting angry when the women don’t solve their problems.
He thinks that the most dangerous thing for young, angry men is when they only get behavioral feedback from other young, angry men. He thinks being a male mentor, and a positive role model, is the most important thing he can do for young men today.
He has made a difference, for at least a few troubled youth.
It’s funny what people can do when they address issues.
Third thought:
Smiling when in a bad mood does trigger some happy neurotransmitters. This is good. Being happy is nice. However, chronic ‘Must be HappyHappyHappy’ stress is emotionally crippling, and is a awful coping mechanism.
If you can legitimately turn the frown upside down, that’s totally awesome! If you can’t, it’s okay to be sad, angry, whatevers. It’s also okay to talk to people about issues. Living with someone and trying to pretend their behavior doesn’t bother you is tough. I tried for a week with a roommate and caved. Guess what?
Stoping pretending things were dandy and talking to the roomie about it, fixed the problem! Miracle!
I believe Kate when she says she’s happy enough.
Her method doesn’t work for me.
There is no one method that works for everyone.
Heck, my method doesn’t work for everyone.
Last thought:
Wow, that was a heated troll debate. Since I’m somewhat new and don’t know MEZ’s history, I was inclined to take MEZ seriously. I can be inept with analogies, have logic fails, and be a bit combative. I feel for certain men’s issues, and I hate the ‘but my hurt is bigger than your hurt, so shut up about your problems and deal with mine’ things that occasionally crop up.
All rape, all abuse, all mutilation is bad, regardless of gender.
I saw myself, a bit, in those first few posts, and felt a little weirded out by the response. I’ve tasted enough of my own foot, elsewhere, and I’ll taste foot again, eventually, here, I’m sure. By the time I finished reading the thread, I felt less generously inclined, and understood the regular’s more vehement responses.
There’s a line between “We need to stop comparing bruises and scars, and fix a problem” and continual false equivalences.
There’s a line between pointing out that someone is using combative language, and claiming their reactions to sensitive topics is bullying.
There’s a line between defending your ideas, and refusing to listen to critiques (even if the critiques are a bit more like flames).
Some newbie commenters occasionally get caught in the crossfire. I feel for them. I hope they come back with a willingness to play nicely with others. Hopefully, they figured out why what they said wasn’t taken well.
They don’t have to agree with everything. There’s a difference between agreeing and a willingness to amicably disagree.
Eventually, I will disagree with someone about something. I may get a verbal kick in the teeth. Hopefully, I will learn something from it.
Heck: I’d prefer a verbal kick to a gentle ‘perhaps you should see it this way, maybe, if you’d like, please?’
If the wall of text is unfounded, my apologies. I’ll attempt to rein myself in, if necessary.
Remember that one we had a while back who said that anyone who wasn’t a communist wasn’t a real feminist?
No apologies needed, contrapangloss, that was a great comment! That was no wall o’ text, because 1) it said things worth saying and 2) it had paragraph breaks. <3 😉
Your dad sounds like a terrific person.
Yeah, MEZ has a history here. She's done this sort of shit before – in fact it's all she's memorable for.
katz, LOL I vaguely remember that nitwit, now you mention it! Did that crop up around the time of blackbloc’s epic ME ME ME meltdown?
I met one (a dude, of course) who splained that I wasn’t allowed to call myself a feminist if I wasn’t willing to do sex work. And that was the last time we met up for coffee.
That crunching noise you just heard was my jaw hitting the keyboard.
A real feminist is someone who works to better the lot of women, regardless of their own gender. And that is really all there is to it. It’s not a contest, and it’s certainly not a dogma. It’s just about making sure that women have as good a life as men. Y punto.
??? ? ?
?
Did splainy dude a) want you to prove your RealFeminist™ cred by sexing him?
Though I bet he’d then say a RealFeminist™ wouldn’t accept any money.
Ignore that random a), this is what comes of editing mid-comment …
No, I think it was more that he’d just about grasped that idea that most feminists are supportive of sex workers as people, even if they dislike the industry, and somehow in his sexism-poisoned little brain it turned into…that. Like, prove your activist cred.
TIL that you can’t believe women are people and deserve to be treated as such if you have personal boundaries. Also, that you have to ask permission to be a feminist.
I guess it never occurred to creeptastic dude that requiring someone to do sex work when they don’t want to is requiring them to be raped.
Also the kind of testing of boundaries that creeps always do, which is why I told him to go fuck himself with a rusty chainsaw.
Well done!
(Countdown till MEZ comes back and tells me off for driving him into the arms of John the Otter?)
10 … 9 … 8 …
Someone very close to me was having a very unpleasant divorce. His wife was being manipulative, abusive and otherwise making things miserable. There were kids in the picture.
He was looking for someone to help him with the process and some “Fathers’ Rights” dudes started giving him advice. He was also (thank God) spending a lot of time on the phone with me. I was, as best I could (this was about ten years ago), telling him the dudes were not helping (they almost got him to buy into the “alienation of affection” bullshit). That managed to keep some of it in check. The fathers rights dudes also had some attorneys they recommended. Thankfully he thought the lawywers to be less than competent (which they probably were) and got a different one; one who told him to put the kibosh on that crap; because it wouldn’t play well with the judge.
Skip forward half a dozen years. He’s studied mediation. He’s in a better place all in all. His ex is still less than wonderful, but he looks at things and sees he hadn’t been responding well to the things which were going on either. His relationship with his ex (the youngest of the kids is about 15 now) is still strained, but he’s a lot more understanding; and admits now that the advice he was getting was a recipe for disaster.
So these days he mediates, lots of divorce, and child custody issues. He understands how some people can be douchey; and that some of it is defensive behavior when they feel out of options.
And he also has an eye peeled for MRM bullshit.