Lundy Bancroft is an expert on abusive relationships and the author of Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds Of Angry and Controlling Men, a book I’ve found very helpful not only in understanding abusers but also in understanding the behavior and “activism” of Men’s Rights Activists.
In a recent post on his blog, he warns about the ways in which “Men’s Rights” ideologies can justify, and made worse, abusive behavior from men who are already abusive, or who have abusive tendencies.
In the post, entitled “The Abuser Crusade,” he writes
When a man has some unhealthy relationship patterns to begin with, the last thing he needs is to discover philosophies that actually back up the destructive aspects of how he thinks. Take a guy who is somewhat selfish and disrespectful to begin with, then add in a big dose of really negative influences, and you have a recipe for disaster. And the sad reality is that there are websites, books, and even organizations out there that encourage men to be at their worst rather than at their best when it comes to relating to women.
It’s not surprising that a philosophy rooted in male entitlement would appeal to men who already feel pretty entitled – and often quite bitter that the women in their lives, not to mention the world at large, doesn’t seem to regard them as quite so deserving of adulation as they think they are.
As I’ve mentioned before, I used to think it was unfair to label the Men’s Rights Movement “the abusers’ lobby,” as many domestic violence experts have done, because I felt that the movement did raise some issues that MRAs at least seem to sincerely believe reflect discrimination against men. But the more experience I’ve had with MRAs, the more I’ve begun to see the Men’s Rights Movement not only as an “abusers’ lobby” but as an abusers’ support group, and an abusive force in its own right, promoting forms of “activism” that are little more than semi-organized stalking and harassment of individual women.
It’s not that every MRA is literally a domestic abuser, though I wouldn’t be shocked to find domestic abusers seriously overrepresented in the Men’s Rights ranks; it’s that the Men’s Rights movement promotes abusive ways of thinking and behaving.
In case anyone had any doubt about which groups Bancroft is talking about, he gets specific:
Some of these groups come under the heading of what is known as “Men’s Rights” or “Father’s Rights” groups. Their writings spread the message that women are trying to control or humiliate men, or are mostly focused on taking men’s money. They also tend to promote the idea that women who want to keep primary custody of their children after divorce are evil. The irony is that we live in a country that has refused to pass an amendment to the constitution to guarantee equal rights for women; yet some men are still out there claiming that women have too many rights and that men don’t have enough.
Bancroft also warns about groups preaching a return to patriarchal values:
Other groups don’t use the language of “rights”, but promote abusive thinking by talking about the “natural” roles of men and women. These groups teach, for example, that men are biologically programmed to be the ones making the key decisions, and that women are just naturally the followers of men’s leadership. These philosophies sometimes teach that men and women are just too different to have really close relationships.
In the end, Bancroft urges women whose partners are picking up new philosophies that seem to be making their behavior worse rather than better to start researching the subject themselves, and reaching out to other women in the same situation, in order to better understand what their partners are getting into — and defend themselves against it.
I’m curious how many readers here have had personal experience with men who’ve embraced Men’s or Fathers’ Rights philosophies (or any of the varieties of backwards Manosphere philosophies), or who know of women whose partners have.
Under those circumstances, I might actually eat the cauliflower. *drools*
I suspect this is how root veggies were originally cooked. I know some cultures that use outdoor fires instead of ovens cook them this way, or by burying them near the fire.
emilygoddess: You could just make the cheese sauce and put it on what you do like. It’s a good sauce for mac and cheese too.
I wouldn’t want to be married to someone who wanted me to lie to them, nor who felt like they needed to lie to me. If your partner expects that from you, well, a partner isn’t what they actually want at all.
emily,
I’ve cooked by burying veggies in hot coals before, but I’d never seen someone just sit the veg next to the fire. I could not believe how good it was, but food always tastes better when you’re camping. Have you ever made whistling apples? You just shove a sharp stick through an apple and roast it over the fire until it boils in it’s own skin. It makes a “whistling” sound. Then you take off the skin and eat the roasted apple. Kids love it.
I tend to put a little mustard & some chili in my cauliflower cheese but I am definitely going to give horseradish a try now. Also possibly in cheese scones – the cheese stall on the local market sells a smoked wensleydale which gives such an interesting flavour to cheese scones & the mellow smokiness contrasts nicely with a hint of spiciness.
LBT: I always found this Blake quotation interesting: “Excess of sorrow laughs. Excess of joy weeps.”
Lea: I feel as though you are responding to something I didn’t write. I don’t advocate “suffering in silence” and avoiding intimacy. I am advocating being aware of one’s feelings and taking responsibility for guiding them in a positive direction.
@kate
yyeeeaaahhhh if that works for you, great, but don’t try to shove it down the rest of our throats, k?
I’m currently dating a guy that has some backwards tendencies. We have 3 kids and even though the oldest 2 are in school the daycare is through the roof so I was convinced to stay at home with them. He doesn’t want to share money and I have to ask for every dime for approval. When he gives me money he doesn’t give me enough so I don’t have much left over. He won’t do money together as he claims that I won’t be able to handle it. Funny I could handle it fine before we lived together. We’ve been together for 12 years but he won’t get married because he says that if we get divorced that I’ll clean him out. He also won’t get life insurance to protect the children which I just find odd. His dad also likes to make little comments like how its only women who embezzel.
I want to leave but I don’t know how. My family thinks he’s the greatest because I’m not on the street. They tell me things won’t be better on my own and support him in everything.
So I’m looking for a job and I don’t care if it interferes with his hours or if daycare costs more than I make. I’m sick of depending on a man and I feel stupid for being talked into it by my family. I’m trying to save up what I can and then I’m gone.
I must have missed the part where anyone asked for Kate’s advice.
Lea, as someone who mostly lurks these days, can I just say “thank you” for this? Thank you!
Yeah.
@beegee
I wish I could offer you some advice. Good luck leaving. And internet hugs from me, if you want them.
@beegee, you are so brave for trying to find a way out. You deserve to be happy. Hugs if you want them.
@ beegee
You’re not stupid. Lots of women get manipulated into situations like yours, and it really doesn’t help when your own family is enabling his abuse of you (and it is abuse). If there’s anything we can do to help in terms of support or advice or just a space where you can vent, we’re here.
Beegee, hang in there. You’ve already taken one step on the right path. I hope you make it out of there. All the hugs if you want ’em.
Beegee, hugs to you.
I don’t have any advice for you, but do you read Captain Awkward? She’s not taking questions right now, but I’ll bet there is some wisdom in her archives.
Also, maybe this article on financial abuse will be useful. http://nnedv.org/resources/ejresources/about-financial-abuse.html
My experience with a man who got into Mens/Fathers Rights stuff.
My brother. I knew him as a kind, decent, capable, sociable and good-looking man for 35 years. His personality changed after going through years of really horrible stress. I thought he had been worn down to depression or a breakdown. He started saying things that were out of character and didn’t make a lot of sense. I suspected he’d been hanging around some group online, and reading this site I recognised his new sayings as being MRA stuff.
At the same time he became scary. Some things he did and said would have made me jump out of the car or throw him out of my house and never let him near me again, if any other man said or did that. And he started going out with very young women, and trying to crack on to teenagers.
He left town and hasn’t spoken to me for years, so I don’t know how he is going these days. The stressful situation has finished (or at least, he has more control over his situation now) so I hope he is feeling better.
@Kate
Genuinely curious – do you mean not letting your bad mood (for example) affect how you treat other people, or do you mean immediately snuffing out a bad mood and trying to turn it into a good mood?
I ask because of what you wrote about the little ‘trick’ you and Mark have where you’re forbidden to be unhappy. On the surface that sounds… well, not good, like if you have unhappy thoughts etc you have to suppress them, not express and work through them. I may be misinterpreting this and want to be sure I understand you correctly.
@Beegee adding to the hugathon. You’re really brave.
The only man I know who would fit the MRA mold is Busband’s father. He was very authoritarian, and very much ‘this is how men are, this is how women are’. I’ve no doubt he would have embraced sites like AVFM, if they’d been around.
He was a cop who beat his wife terribly, in front of the kids. When they divorced and Busband (14 or so at the time) was forced to testify in court against his father, his father basically cut him out of his life for betraying him against his ‘crazy wife’. The only interest he showed in Busband’s life after that was whether or not he was attending school, because if he wasn’t then he didn’t have to pay child support (which he tried to avoid anyway for 3 years).
Even over a decade later, if Busband happened to be pulled over by or otherwise talking to a cop who turned out to know his father, the cop would often comment ‘Oh you’re X’s kid? Your mother is one crazy bitch, eh?’
He would have been ALL OVER the ‘Don’t be that girl’ campaign.
Marie – great comment to MEZ, upthread!
Oooh I’m seeing this kiosk at the Curry Village in Yosemite, right next to the pizza place.
Beegee – adding to the hugs, and hoping you get out of that situation.
@Magpie
sorry to hear about your brother being a douche 🙁 (hugs from me, if wanted)
@kittehs
thanks :3
The best thing about wasabi/horseradish/hot mustard compared to chillis is that as soon as you get it out of your mouth the burn goes away. So if you eat too much, you spit it out and you’re good again. I hate chilli because it just stays around torturing you.
@LBT
nice to see you around, too!
@Ally
you did some awesome comments but i don’t have anything to add, so this is just an appreciation comment. 😀
Re the “intolerance fuels intolerance” bs thing MEZ brought up
How come people who say “hate fuels hate” or “intolerance fuels intolerance” or other bs-y phrases never say “hate fuels hate, so maybe the oppressive group should stop oppressing people” They always say “hate feels hate, so oppressed group, be nice to the oppressors and don’t hurt their feelings. ”
It’s like…. Look at where the hate started. Look at where it’s systematically enacted. Why don’t you start over there?
Fffs, people aren’t saying they’re the same. they’re just trying to get you to have an iota of empathy and accept that sexism is a bad thing and not about men.
Marie:
if I call a guy a douchebag, does that mean I should get paid less?
That’s what I hate about this thing that MEZ is doing. Some women hurt mens feelings, ergo all women deserve to be oppressed.
It’s like… men hurt womens feelings all the time. Why aren’t you getting on them?
bleh i’m repeating myself. hope this makes sense
Makes perfect sense, Fade.
So… MEZ was bringing up how we think everybody is evil… by bringing up Germans.
Even though MEZ was just saying that what drives me to evil is uppity feminists being mean.
And now MEZ is horrified, just horrified, that we’d say MEZ implied the Jews brought it on themselves.
But if the Jews had acted as bad as women treat men, THEN MAYBE THEY WOULD HAVE.
…
Meanwhile, in the forgotten circumcision strand of the conversation, MEZ tries to use very real violence against women as a rhetorical device to show us how bad the men have it.
…
If I wrote a parody of a MRA, I’d try to write it more consistent and believable than this.
GDWA – it’s simple. Women are responsible for the psychological comfort of men, so a woman hurting a man’s feelings is a bug.
Men are NOT responsible for the psychological comfort of women, so a man hurting a woman’s feelings is a feature.
It seems as if people like MEZ and Rumdum Pestilence really think like that.