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Domestic violence expert Lundy Bancroft: Men's Rights philosophies make angry and controlling men even worse.

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Or any other time, either, I’m guessing,

Lundy Bancroft is an expert on abusive relationships and the author of Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds Of Angry and Controlling Men, a book I’ve found very helpful not only in understanding abusers but also in understanding the behavior and “activism” of Men’s Rights Activists.

In a recent post on his blog, he warns about the ways in which “Men’s Rights” ideologies can justify, and made worse, abusive behavior from men who are already abusive, or who have abusive tendencies.

In the post, entitled “The Abuser Crusade,” he writes

When a man has some unhealthy relationship patterns to begin with, the last thing he needs is to discover philosophies that actually back up the destructive aspects of how he thinks. Take a guy who is somewhat selfish and disrespectful to begin with, then add in a big dose of really negative influences, and you have a recipe for disaster. And the sad reality is that there are websites, books, and even organizations out there that encourage men to be at their worst rather than at their best when it comes to relating to women.

It’s not surprising that a philosophy rooted in male entitlement would appeal to men who already feel pretty entitled – and often quite bitter that the women in their lives, not to mention the world at large, doesn’t seem to regard them as quite so deserving of adulation as they think they are.

As I’ve mentioned before, I used to think it was unfair to label the Men’s Rights Movement “the abusers’ lobby,” as many domestic violence experts have done, because I felt that the movement did raise some issues that MRAs at least seem to sincerely believe reflect discrimination against men. But the more experience I’ve had with MRAs, the more I’ve begun to see the Men’s Rights Movement not only as an “abusers’ lobby” but as an abusers’ support group, and an abusive force in its own right, promoting forms of “activism” that are little more than semi-organized stalking and harassment of individual women.

It’s not that every MRA is literally a domestic abuser, though I wouldn’t be shocked to find domestic abusers seriously overrepresented in the Men’s Rights ranks; it’s that the Men’s Rights movement promotes abusive ways of thinking and behaving.

In case anyone had any doubt about which groups Bancroft is talking about, he gets specific:

Some of these groups come under the heading of what is known as “Men’s Rights” or “Father’s Rights” groups. Their writings spread the message that women are trying to control or humiliate men, or are mostly focused on taking men’s money. They also tend to promote the idea that women who want to keep primary custody of their children after divorce are evil. The irony is that we live in a country that has refused to pass an amendment to the constitution to guarantee equal rights for women; yet some men are still out there claiming that women have too many rights and that men don’t have enough.

Bancroft also warns about groups preaching a return to patriarchal values:

Other groups don’t use the language of “rights”, but promote abusive thinking by talking about the “natural” roles of men and women. These groups teach, for example, that men are biologically programmed to be the ones making the key decisions, and that women are just naturally the followers of men’s leadership. These philosophies sometimes teach that men and women are just too different to have really close relationships.

In the end, Bancroft urges women whose partners are picking up new philosophies that seem to be making their behavior worse rather than better to start researching the subject themselves, and reaching out to other women in the same situation, in order to better understand what their partners are getting into — and defend themselves against it.

I’m curious how many readers here have had personal experience with men who’ve embraced Men’s or Fathers’ Rights philosophies (or any of the varieties of backwards Manosphere philosophies), or who know of women whose partners have.

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cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
10 years ago

Maybe we should go back to talking about wasabi and horseradish. I liked that conversation better.

(Pro tip – put grated horseradish in mashed potatoes, it’s awesome.)

Ally S
10 years ago

@LBT

Well, I can’t speak for everyone, but I think you’re one of the nicest trans guys I know. I’m glad you make an effort to be aware of your privilege.

Shiraz
Shiraz
10 years ago

Thank you, MEZ. You’re making a lot of people here very happy. Making obscure, unarticulated arguements against the marginalized brings out the best in some people.

sparky
sparky
10 years ago

So, I’m wondering, why would MEZ bring up Nazis in response to being asked if ze truly thought that white people could be bullied into the KKK by black people, if ze was not trying to say that that’s what happened with the Nazis.

Cause otherwise, it’s a rather pointless thing to bring up.

Call me a screeching harpy, but I do think that joining a hate group is a moral failing on the part of the person joining, and in no way, shape or form the fault of an oppressed group. But, y’know, I’m also the kind of person who holds people responsible for their own actions, so, yeah.

LBT
LBT
10 years ago

Oh dammit, cassandrakitty, you’re going to give my husband IDEAS. Spicy sinus-killing ideas.

That’s reassuring, Ally. I hope I can continue to be aware and non-douchey, for the comfort of everyone around me.

Lea
Lea
10 years ago

LBT,
MEZ is a misogynist idiot and I suspect racist and antisemitic as well.

I hope that clears things up for you.

Ally S
10 years ago

(that was in response to your comment about trans male privilege)

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
10 years ago

@ LBT

It’s not that spicy, I promise, more just gives a bit of a kick? I think all the dairy kind of mellows things out.

Lea
Lea
10 years ago

cassandrakitty,

That sounds good. Have you tried it in mashed rutabagas? Because that sounds mouth watering to me.

katz
10 years ago

Have we moved on to recipes now?

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
10 years ago

Also! Irony points for MEZ’s earlier attempt to gotcha us about the “feed the trolls until they burst” policy, because damn, I didn’t like her very much before, but I can’t say I’d have predicted any of the new and, um, let’s say somewhat unsubtle forms of assholery that have emerged during this conversation.

hellkell
hellkell
10 years ago

Because I specifically said that prioritizing your own wants/needs/feelings/whatever is self-defense while dismissing someone else for their feelings is aggression, while you said that I said that not prioritizing men’s feelings is aggression.

MEZ: maybe you could pull your head out enough to know that I wasn’t the one you should be responding to.

Kate
10 years ago

kitteserf: I had the impression it was a summation of some Buddhist thoughts. I think you’re right that there is a spectrum; let’s imagine it as a gauge. At some point it moves from those “unhappy” emotions to the “happy” ones and then being “happy” is not being “unhappy.”

Viscaria: Its a bit off topic, but, actually I do think men are generally better cooks, so…maybe! 🙂

cupisnique: I see your point about the responsibility, but I don’t think it has to lead to a sinister outcome of one person always taking the blame for things. That would be unhealthy.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
10 years ago

@ Lea

I’ve actually never eaten a rutabaga, or at least I don’t think so.

hellkell
hellkell
10 years ago

I make a cauliflower gratin that has a lot of horseradish in the cheese sauce. It’s delicious.

moldybrehd
10 years ago

I’ve never had rutabaga, but I did once have some heavily buttered scalloped turnips. It took literally 5 hours to bake, but it was delicious!

Lea
Lea
10 years ago

They’re good. They’re cheap. They’re nutritious. They’re a little sweet and earthy. They’re kinda like turnips. There is a local restaurant that serves them mashed with butter. So good!
Until I tried them there, the only thing I knew about rutabagas was that you could collect them in Dig Dug.
They are in season in the cooler months.

moldybrehd
10 years ago

Oooh, cauliflower gratin… guess I know what I’m googling next!

AL3H
AL3H
10 years ago

@Ally_S @cassandrakitty

I just caught up with the thread and wanted to add to the “having to be happy” conversation.

If I try to pretend that something that e.g. makes me stressed, makes me happy I end up having these three day mood cycles where I spend part of them uncontrollably crying. When I was about 20 I worked out that if I was sad when I felt sad, no more three day cycles. Good riddance I say, because they sucked.

I have friends who think they are helping by saying the “look at the positive side” thing. However, if I do that too much, the cycles start up again. I think it is great that the “look on the positive side” type of thinking really helps some people. However, everyone has to find their own balance.

People are 100% allowed to have crappy days sometimes. Also, if hugs are helpful, here are some hugs.

Huuuggggssssss

@LBT
Thank you for the link. You are a legend.

Lea
Lea
10 years ago

Turnips are great camping food too. A friend taught me to place them close to the fire and turn them every so often. It roasts them they get soft and yummy.

LBT
LBT
10 years ago

RE: Kate

At some point it moves from those “unhappy” emotions to the “happy” ones and then being “happy” is not being “unhappy.”

But what about mixed emotions? I’ve been sad and happy at the same time — it can be bittersweet remembrance of something positive that ended, or glad that I got away from a horrible toxic situation that I’m still recovering from. And also, I’ve had triggers and flashback responses to fun things and had a freak-out while at the same time acknowledging that after ten minutes of crying and shaking, I’ll be happy again.

moldybrehd
10 years ago

@hellkell Thanks!! Mmmm…

Lea
Lea
10 years ago

Kate,
It isn’t happiness if you are mandated to display it. No one is happy all the time. So, it’s suffering in silence because your authentic emotions don’t please your partner and that’s sick. It’s play acting, lying really. It isn’t healthy and as a mom, I would never want my children to think that their emotions are only acceptable if they please others. That’s a horrible thing to model to your kids.

I also would not want to tell my husband I’m happy when I’m not. I respect him too much to close him out like that. Intimacy requires a certain level of honesty, because you cannot be emotionally intimate without trust. Faking happiness is like faking orgasms. You’re cheating yourself and him in the long run.

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