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Domestic violence expert Lundy Bancroft: Men's Rights philosophies make angry and controlling men even worse.

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Or any other time, either, I’m guessing,

Lundy Bancroft is an expert on abusive relationships and the author of Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds Of Angry and Controlling Men, a book I’ve found very helpful not only in understanding abusers but also in understanding the behavior and “activism” of Men’s Rights Activists.

In a recent post on his blog, he warns about the ways in which “Men’s Rights” ideologies can justify, and made worse, abusive behavior from men who are already abusive, or who have abusive tendencies.

In the post, entitled “The Abuser Crusade,” he writes

When a man has some unhealthy relationship patterns to begin with, the last thing he needs is to discover philosophies that actually back up the destructive aspects of how he thinks. Take a guy who is somewhat selfish and disrespectful to begin with, then add in a big dose of really negative influences, and you have a recipe for disaster. And the sad reality is that there are websites, books, and even organizations out there that encourage men to be at their worst rather than at their best when it comes to relating to women.

It’s not surprising that a philosophy rooted in male entitlement would appeal to men who already feel pretty entitled – and often quite bitter that the women in their lives, not to mention the world at large, doesn’t seem to regard them as quite so deserving of adulation as they think they are.

As I’ve mentioned before, I used to think it was unfair to label the Men’s Rights Movement “the abusers’ lobby,” as many domestic violence experts have done, because I felt that the movement did raise some issues that MRAs at least seem to sincerely believe reflect discrimination against men. But the more experience I’ve had with MRAs, the more I’ve begun to see the Men’s Rights Movement not only as an “abusers’ lobby” but as an abusers’ support group, and an abusive force in its own right, promoting forms of “activism” that are little more than semi-organized stalking and harassment of individual women.

It’s not that every MRA is literally a domestic abuser, though I wouldn’t be shocked to find domestic abusers seriously overrepresented in the Men’s Rights ranks; it’s that the Men’s Rights movement promotes abusive ways of thinking and behaving.

In case anyone had any doubt about which groups Bancroft is talking about, he gets specific:

Some of these groups come under the heading of what is known as “Men’s Rights” or “Father’s Rights” groups. Their writings spread the message that women are trying to control or humiliate men, or are mostly focused on taking men’s money. They also tend to promote the idea that women who want to keep primary custody of their children after divorce are evil. The irony is that we live in a country that has refused to pass an amendment to the constitution to guarantee equal rights for women; yet some men are still out there claiming that women have too many rights and that men don’t have enough.

Bancroft also warns about groups preaching a return to patriarchal values:

Other groups don’t use the language of “rights”, but promote abusive thinking by talking about the “natural” roles of men and women. These groups teach, for example, that men are biologically programmed to be the ones making the key decisions, and that women are just naturally the followers of men’s leadership. These philosophies sometimes teach that men and women are just too different to have really close relationships.

In the end, Bancroft urges women whose partners are picking up new philosophies that seem to be making their behavior worse rather than better to start researching the subject themselves, and reaching out to other women in the same situation, in order to better understand what their partners are getting into — and defend themselves against it.

I’m curious how many readers here have had personal experience with men who’ve embraced Men’s or Fathers’ Rights philosophies (or any of the varieties of backwards Manosphere philosophies), or who know of women whose partners have.

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Marie
Marie
10 years ago

@MEZ

Kiddo, men may be hurt by the patriarchy, but it’s still set up by men and run by men and made to benefit men, so the tiny bit of hurt men are from sexism doesn’t compare to how the patriarchy hurts women.

Absolutely. Intolerance fuels intolerance.

So you’ve found out why we have so little tolerance for misogynists? Oh wait, no, you just want people to keep being nicer to their oppressors. Fuck off.

sparky
sparky
10 years ago

Stop co-opting racism. It’s already been explained why it doesn’t work. Yes, sexists are usually racists, because people who like to marginalize one group often like to marginalize others, but that doesn’t mean that there’s similarities here. White privilege, much?

Careful there, MEZ. You might strain yourself reaching like that.

But lets pretend that there are similarities. Let’s pretend that white people really, somehow, are hurt by racism. Would the NAACP being filled by a bunch of bullies hurt civil rights and help the KKK? Absolutely. Intolerance fuels intolerance.

So wait, let’s see here. You’re really, truly saying that it’s possible that black people could hurt civil rights by being “bullies?” You’re really, really truly saying that. You’re really truly saying that, if the NAACP were “bullies,” that would force more white people into the KKK?

Wow.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
10 years ago

To quote a former President, I think MEZ just asked for a bigger shovel.

Lea
Lea
10 years ago

MEZ,
You are aware that women of color are a thing that exists, right?

Why don’t you go read some Bell Hooks and STFU until you do?

We don’t listen to men or allow them express their feelings?

Are the words LBT, Rober, David and Howard write invisible to you or something?

Are you aware that this is a man’s blog and he is expressing his thoughts in it?

Lea
Lea
10 years ago

Oops, I left something out. Oh look! There it is! ——> t

hellkell
hellkell
10 years ago

MEZ doesn’t understand the First Rule of Holes.

MEZ
MEZ
10 years ago

@sparky

So wait, let’s see here. You’re really, truly saying that it’s possible that black people could hurt civil rights by being “bullies?” You’re really, really truly saying that. You’re really truly saying that, if the NAACP were “bullies,” that would force more white people into the KKK?

Gee, I wonder how entire blocks of decent normal people end up part of hate groups. I wonder how this sort of manipulation has repeated throughout history.

Nawwwww, can’t be it! Hate-groups are only filled with “bad people”. I bet all Germans are bad people.

sarcasm, sarcasm, sarcasm.

@marie

Dude. You literally just said saying you won’t prioritize men’s feelings makes someone the agressor. Do you even listen to the shit that you say?

Yup, I absolutely listen to what I say, and this proves to me that you don’t. Not that you have to, but I’ll keep pointing out your misquotes until you stop making them.

BRAAAAAAAAAAAAIIIIIIIIIIIINSSSSSSSSSSS.

hellkell
hellkell
10 years ago

Fuck off, MEZ.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
10 years ago

I am totally prepared to believe that MEZ enjoys listening to what she says and does so often.

Marie
Marie
10 years ago

@MEZ

wow so much fail.

Gee, I wonder how entire blocks of decent normal people end up part of hate groups. I wonder how this sort of manipulation has repeated throughout history.

1) decent people don’t join hate groups.

Nawwwww, can’t be it! Hate-groups are only filled with “bad people”. I bet all Germans are bad people.

2) fail. Not all Germans were Nazis.

Yup, I absolutely listen to what I say, and this proves to me that you don’t.

I’ll bite. How? Where have I misrepresented you? Or are you just (still) grasping at straws.

LBT
LBT
10 years ago

*is just watching all this unfold with bemusement*

Wait, I just thought of something. If feminism is partly responsible for my actions… then what’s responsible for feminists’ actions? Isn’t that kinda “turtles all the way down” sort of logic?

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
10 years ago

(Thinks)

Harpies! Yep, that’s it.

weirwoodtreehugger
10 years ago

Does Godwinning count as a meltdown? It just reeks of desperation.

Lea
Lea
10 years ago

I like harpies!
*flexes talons*
SCREEEEEEEEEEEEE!

Lea
Lea
10 years ago

Wait, did MEZ just imply that Jews/gays/atheists/Romoni and Jehovah’s Wittnesses drove good Germans to be Nazis by not being nice enough to them?

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
10 years ago

Well, maybe not intentionally, but…

Marie
Marie
10 years ago

@weirdwoodtreehugger

Idk. Then again, maybe MEZ meant something else by the ‘do you think all Germans are bad people’ shtic, but that was the only explanation I could find.

I also feel I’m not WW2 history savvy enough to know more, but if I remember right there were some people who had no choice but to join the German Army? And the MRM doesn’t really have the power to twist anyone’s arm and make them join. The whole comparison just seems super off.

idk if I’m making any sense. /rambles.

hellkell
hellkell
10 years ago

Lea: Pretty much, but is copping out by saying it’s sarcasm.

Marie
Marie
10 years ago

@lea

Wait, did MEZ just imply that Jews/gays/atheists/Romoni and Jehovah’s Wittnesses drove good Germans to be Nazis by not being nice enough to them?

Oh god I so hope not, but she may have.

sparky
sparky
10 years ago

Gee, I wonder how entire blocks of decent normal people end up part of hate groups. I wonder how this sort of manipulation has repeated throughout history.

Nawwwww, can’t be it! Hate-groups are only filled with “bad people”. I bet all Germans are bad people.

Well, holy shit.

MEZ is indeed holding the oppressed responsible for their own oppression.

I’ll give you hint, MEZ. The rise of Nazism in Germany had many things at its roots. “The Jews” weren’t one of them. And yes, it did indeed involve otherwise “decent” people making. A conscious decision to join in, or support, a regime that was doing horrible, horrible things. It was indeed a conscious decision on the part of the German people* to turn a blind eye towards what the Nazis were doing.

*This is a highly complex topic that is being skimmed over here. Indeed, not all Germans were Nazis and some actively resisted the Nazis.

Lea
Lea
10 years ago
Lea
Lea
10 years ago

That eagle is judging the hell out you, MEZ.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
10 years ago

That eagle looks confused. Who can blame it, really, if it’s read any of MEZ’s shit in this thread.

hellkell
hellkell
10 years ago

Aw, who’s a Harpy Eagle with a face? You are!

freemage
10 years ago

I’m going to make one slight amendment to the recent discussion: Sometimes good people do join hate movements. They do this not because they were bullied by the hated group, but because they were fed a steaming heap of lies by the leaders of the hate group. Many German Nazi party members had been convinced that Jewish bankers were responsible for Germany’s economic woes, for instance. Likewise, many men have been persuaded by the leaders of the MRM that the reason it’s hard to find a good-paying job is that all these women are in the workforce due to feminism.

Respecting the ‘feelings’ of those folks doesn’t do jack, however. That just lets them go on blaming the wrong people. What does help is giving them the resources to understand where the actual source of their problem comes from. In this case, it’s a manipulation of the money supply to keep a steady unemployment rate around 5% or so–thereby ensuring that there’s almost always someone else who wants your job desperately enough to take it for a lower wage.

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