Lundy Bancroft is an expert on abusive relationships and the author of Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds Of Angry and Controlling Men, a book I’ve found very helpful not only in understanding abusers but also in understanding the behavior and “activism” of Men’s Rights Activists.
In a recent post on his blog, he warns about the ways in which “Men’s Rights” ideologies can justify, and made worse, abusive behavior from men who are already abusive, or who have abusive tendencies.
In the post, entitled “The Abuser Crusade,” he writes
When a man has some unhealthy relationship patterns to begin with, the last thing he needs is to discover philosophies that actually back up the destructive aspects of how he thinks. Take a guy who is somewhat selfish and disrespectful to begin with, then add in a big dose of really negative influences, and you have a recipe for disaster. And the sad reality is that there are websites, books, and even organizations out there that encourage men to be at their worst rather than at their best when it comes to relating to women.
It’s not surprising that a philosophy rooted in male entitlement would appeal to men who already feel pretty entitled – and often quite bitter that the women in their lives, not to mention the world at large, doesn’t seem to regard them as quite so deserving of adulation as they think they are.
As I’ve mentioned before, I used to think it was unfair to label the Men’s Rights Movement “the abusers’ lobby,” as many domestic violence experts have done, because I felt that the movement did raise some issues that MRAs at least seem to sincerely believe reflect discrimination against men. But the more experience I’ve had with MRAs, the more I’ve begun to see the Men’s Rights Movement not only as an “abusers’ lobby” but as an abusers’ support group, and an abusive force in its own right, promoting forms of “activism” that are little more than semi-organized stalking and harassment of individual women.
It’s not that every MRA is literally a domestic abuser, though I wouldn’t be shocked to find domestic abusers seriously overrepresented in the Men’s Rights ranks; it’s that the Men’s Rights movement promotes abusive ways of thinking and behaving.
In case anyone had any doubt about which groups Bancroft is talking about, he gets specific:
Some of these groups come under the heading of what is known as “Men’s Rights” or “Father’s Rights” groups. Their writings spread the message that women are trying to control or humiliate men, or are mostly focused on taking men’s money. They also tend to promote the idea that women who want to keep primary custody of their children after divorce are evil. The irony is that we live in a country that has refused to pass an amendment to the constitution to guarantee equal rights for women; yet some men are still out there claiming that women have too many rights and that men don’t have enough.
Bancroft also warns about groups preaching a return to patriarchal values:
Other groups don’t use the language of “rights”, but promote abusive thinking by talking about the “natural” roles of men and women. These groups teach, for example, that men are biologically programmed to be the ones making the key decisions, and that women are just naturally the followers of men’s leadership. These philosophies sometimes teach that men and women are just too different to have really close relationships.
In the end, Bancroft urges women whose partners are picking up new philosophies that seem to be making their behavior worse rather than better to start researching the subject themselves, and reaching out to other women in the same situation, in order to better understand what their partners are getting into — and defend themselves against it.
I’m curious how many readers here have had personal experience with men who’ve embraced Men’s or Fathers’ Rights philosophies (or any of the varieties of backwards Manosphere philosophies), or who know of women whose partners have.
Likewise, Marie, great to see you and Fade on site again! 🙂
Yeah, this was ages ago the buzzing fly started that shit. I’ve no idea why he hasn’t been banned long since.
@kittehs
idk, I usually skip brz’s comments because he’s so deathly boring. Okay, that wasn’t actually related to him not being banned, it just came to head to say and I finallly have a real keyboard I can type on fast and I had caffeine and wheeeeeeeeeeeee.
um, but yes. On the banning him issue, I don’t have a problem with it, especially if other people want him out. he’s not contributing anything besides pretending to be french.
hi kittehserf! it’s nice to see you again, too. 🙂
I generally post more during breaks from school (tho it’s not over; it’s only *almost* over atm). idk why; i just suck at managing my time 😛
RE: Kittehs
have you posted The Portrait anywhere yet?
Oops! I need to do that!
Also, I too am glad to see Fade and Marie back. Brz, not so much.
“I’m curious how many readers here have had personal experience with men who’ve embraced Men’s or Fathers’ Rights philosophies (or any of the varieties of backwards Manosphere philosophies), or who know of women whose partners have.”
Well, since you asked…:) I have an exceedingly respectful, mature, and committed relationship. I have never- EVER- been treated better. I know kind Cynthia was worried, but it was unwarranted. It’s partly a function of age and experience though. I’ve met other men from this realm (late twenties and early forties, respectively) who felt far more entitled to use women as a stepping stone on their way to alphadom. Fools.
Darn right you do, there is SO MUCH BRAGGING MATERIAL there and I need to be able to link to it and say lookit what Rogan did for me!
RE: Kittehs
Your wish is my command!
Just left a comment (a witty and pithy one, too)!
🙂
@Kate (from your blog)
Not what I would personally choose, but I am glad you’re in a relationship that makes you happy. Honestly, I am (not being sarcastic here)
@MEZ, ever met a woman who has had FGM inflicted upon her? I have. Friend of mine’s mother. Type 1B. She has no clitoris. She came to terms with it because she had no choice in the matter, but it completely altered her life. While I agree with you (and many others) that male circumcision is most often not necessary and shouldn’t be done to babies/children unless medically necessary (my nephew, for instance, had to have it done), I know countless men who are circumcised and it has not affected their lives in any way at all. That doesn’t mean there are never negative effects, or never any men who experience trauma about it – but I’m sorry, it is not equivalent.
@Kate
Can you tell us more about what his actual philosophy is?
Co-signed. I would shed zero tears if she were to fuck off forever.
Yeah, no shit. Seriously. Circumcision shit on a post about abusive men? Come ON.
I really don’t know what the “z” is for in the name, since every post is ME ME ME ME ME. Nthing the call to ban.
OMG, “Why Does He Do That?” changed my entire view on gender relations and what motivates abusers. I was so happy when I saw you refer to it. It’s a great piece of work (and written by a man who has worked with abusive men for many years), which helps with its legitimacy in terms of men wanting to read it.
When I engage with said ‘abusers’ online I can actually see the behavior playing out that he describes in the book (which is fascinating and empowering at the same time), because you understand where it’s coming from. It also makes me feel good to know that these guys would generally only be interested in conversing with women who are submissive, so it really spurs me up on to know that they are being forced to listen to a woman who isn’t afraid of them or going to back down from their abusive behavior; who doesn’t care that they call me a f*****g moron/c**t/b***c (insert random gendered insult here). I take great pleasure in knowing that it probably drives them nuts.
I also try to make sure that I refer to them as ‘abusers’, because that’s what they are, and they should know it. Another important point I took away from this amazing (and very important book).
I urge people to read it if they are so inclined.
@hippodameia8527 – I kinda assumed there was a missing “N” – they’ve been whining enough about teh MENZ for it to make sense…
@LBT
Partially yes, feminism gets the credit. Obviously as an adult you have agency and responsibility, but we don’t behave and make decisions in a vacuum either.
I said that that they’re the biggest gig in town for men, not that they’re the best. They certainly aren’t the best. And this thread seemed more about the MRM as a platform than abusers per se. If the circumcision discussion is bothering people I’ll drop it.
@Kitteh
Awww, kitteh, probably 3/4 of my posts here are supportive of feminism, or have nothing to do with feminism, but those just get generally ignored. I know it is truly terrible to criticize feminism, considering that criticism is the only thing that keeps it from turning to shit.
I would go away faster if people managed to get my arguments right. Case in point;
Seems to be my entire point that there needs to be a MRM to compliment, not counter-act, feminism.
And to answer the earlier questions; men’s issues;
changing gender roles affecting dating
changing gender roles affecting parenting
toxic masculinity influencing men to avoid seeking help
circumcision
struggling more in school
and so on.
None of this is “oppression” caused by women. And none of this is going to be solved by feminism. I disagree that men don’t need a movement to address these issues, “movements” aren’t just about fighting oppression.
Whether they need a movement or not – the MRM is not it. You said yourself that the MRM would be useful only if it were different in every way from what it is now.
There are groups out there working to help men. They exist. They are helping. They also distance themselves from the name MRM as much as possible.
By dint of the MRM driving out anyone who actually cares about anyone other than themself, the MRM is actively harmful.
Then fuck off and go work on your “movement.”
@MEZ
No one here has suggested that there are no real men’s issues, but they have very clearly stated that the current MRM is actively causing those issues to be worse rather than better and that feminism is not required to solve men’s issues. So I do not see your fucking point at all.
The many comments responding to your posts have made it clear that feminism (and women) is/are not responsible for men’s issues. Feminism/women are also not to blame for men turning to the horrible MRM because their issues were ignored by feminist. If you are a man with concerns about how society treats men or the expectations of men in our society and you go to the MRM and find their form of activism to be reasonable and just you were not a good person to begin with. As evident by the many real life stories by the commentators here of men that were seeking support for men’s issues found the MRM and were immediately repulsed by what they discovered.
Marc Lepine
George Sodini
An equivalent to Hugo Shwyzer would be an MRA who seemed to support the party line, but it turned out he was being nice to women and cuddling kittens in secret. And then they kicked him out.
Here’s Aidan Gillen looking very adorable with a kitten.
http://www.tvshows-wallpapers.com/game-of-thrones/aidan-gillen/download-aidan-gillen-142-wallpaper/
Doesn’t understand that compliment and complement are not the same thing? Yep, she’s a FeMRA alright. Also trolling, just in case everyone else hadn’t noticed.
“I’ll make you pay attention to me!”, she vows as she throws circumcision into a conversation about domestic violence in the hopes of starting a brawl.
MEZ there is a movement that addresses those things for men (and it works to complement feminism because it was born of feminism), it took its lead from feminism in building on the concept of patriarchy and how it affects men’s lives and how changing men’s behaviors and attitudes will lead to healthier, happier men and in turn healthier, happier societies, but the MRM is not that movement. You should rather look to become more involved with movements related to, ‘masculinity studies’, rather than men’s studies.
Men’s studies is really just a bunch of angry men, many of whom are clearly socio/psychopathic and seek to enact vengeance on the greatest symbol of female empowerment; ‘feminism’, rather than the very institutions and people making their lives so horrible (apparently). Many of them are really just abusive men who resent the fact that women now have complete agency over themselves and their lives and resent the loss of control that they feel entitled to. Which is why the vast majority of members are white men (many of them are predictably xenophobic on every level and yearn for the days of old when things suited them better).
However, masculinity studies is a movement dedicated to exploring how patriarchy affects the lives of men, shortens their lives and drives them to depression and suicide. It’s based in scholarship (unlike the MRM), is a progressive, rather than reactionary movement and is genuinely committed to improving the lives of men in conjunction with feminism. This is the kind of movement you want to be involved in if you genuinely care about improving the lives of men. If your beef is purely with feminism and pointing blame then the MRM is where you belong, but be warned, they have never, and will never, achieve anything in terms of improving men’s lives, but rather just reinforcing the status quo and blaming feminism. It’s a useless movement.
Here’s something that explains it and provides some resources:
http://culturalstudiesnow.blogspot.com.au/2011/07/masculinity-studies-overview.html
And here’s something you can get involved in:
http://mensstudies.org/
Bullshit. Your only lengthy contributions here have been whine fests about how nobody understaaaaands what you’re saying, blah blah blah. You just do the self-righteous condescension act over and over.
Incidentally, “feminism” isn’t a monolith, and if you’re treating it that way, and criticising it as just one thing, instead of criticising specific ideas or actions of specific people, then I call bullshit on your claims to be a feminist. You sound exactlyl like the misogynists who treat women as a monolith and hold all women responsible for everything any woman’s done.
Fuck off forever, you’re a patronising (oh yes, I chose that word deliberately) creep.