Let’s take another stroll through the strange wonderland of Men Going Their Own Way, that small and bitter tribe of men who boldly declare their independence from women, then spend the rest of their lives obsessively talking about them.
Today, let’s look at the thoughtful discussion that ensued when one such fellow known as TDG asked his Brothers in Going Their Own Way why, of all the women they have Gone Their Own Way from (but not really), they tend to prefer women who are “chaste.”
For women, I’m guessing the main reason they weren’t so slutty before the 1950s, was because of the fear of having a bastard womb turd, but the pill changed all that and now they can have as many dicks as they like.
Now, I wont ever marry again and my ex-wife was a virgin and all that went to shit, but here’s my question;
Why do men want women that are chaste…?
I understand on a visceral level, that if a woman has had too many dicks, I can never care for her more than a cum rag, but I’m curious if that is societal conditioning or something that is innate to men…
Thoughts gentlemen…?
Unsurprisingly, the gentlemen of the MGTOW HQ forum did indeed have many thoughts on the subject. (I’ve bolded the most intriguing bits.)
ManWithAPlan had an economic explanation:
Because by going through the “bad boy” phase, they fuck away their only worth. There are three things I look for in a woman (mainly). Attractiveness, fertility and youth. If a woman is attractive and young, but can’t have kids, most men will treat her as a cum rag. If she’s fertile and young, but not attractive, she’s still no good to most men. If she’s old and attractive, she’s back to being a cougar and a cum rag.
Multishadow brought in biology:
[B]iologically speaking women represent a fertile ground for man to plant his seed, and no one wants to plant his seed in a garbage dump.
Second, a man must work to earn a woman, and then invest in her.. and no man wants to work for what others gain for free, or for what was freely given out in the past. There is also resentment for a female gaining sex freely, when a man must work for it.
And that is the third issue, people in general have a distaste for those who are gluttons for pleasure. … It is one thing to obtain sex when you want it, but if your only purpose in life is laying around having sex.. it is like watching an obese person eat.
That’s right: people who have a lot of sex are basically sex fatties. And no one likes a fatty, right?
Aldenhamil suggested that chaste women were a better bargain for frugal men:
Just having random sex is one thing and any old cum dumpster will usually do, but settling down with a woman, having children, and providing for them is something altogether different. It’s a massive investment of time, energy, and resources. Men naturally lean towards frugality and appreciate getting the most bang for their buck. When it comes to women>children>family, it’s a better bet to invest in a woman who isn’t swinging from every cock in town. …
Men instinctively know that whores make poor long-term investments, but they also instinctively know that all women will become whores if given the opportunity. The whole situation is a bit of a clusterfuck, really. It was a problem for Bronze Age societies, and it’s still a problem long after we’ve managed to put human beings in outer space.
Ghost Rider noted that “chaste” women won’t have had a lot of other guys to compare you to, so chances are good she won’t know how mediocre you are in bed:
From my observations, the more men a woman has been with, the greater the chance that she is carrying at least one torch if not more for some guy that dumped her. I believe the term is alpha widow. Seen quite a few times where a woman dumps hubby to get back with a guy she was carrying a torch for, or at least conduct a torrid affair with the guy when he came a calling.
In addition, she is more likely to get back on the cock carousel trying to recapture what she thought she had when she was younger. Also, a woman who hasn’t ridden the cock carousel is a lot less judgmental in the bedroom because she isn’t comparing you to the hundreds of guys she’s been in the sack with. If you’re an average guy, you’re probably not at the same level as the alpha thug with the huge cock that fucked the shit out of her all night. If you’re dumb enough to get married/remarried, who the hell needs that shit in addition to everything else.
Demonsgate, meanwhile, seems to be more terrified of being judged by other guys than by the women he dates:
Real simple because in my younger days when I walked into a bar or restaurant with a twat I didn’t want all you bastards laughing saying yep we all fucked her and this fool is dating her. Who wants to be that guy?
Mongolking answered TDG’s question with his own question:
I think the larger question is “Why Do We Want Them… At All?”
Given that this discussion is taking place on a forum devoted to Men Going Their Own Way, this seems like a reasonable enough question.
And I’ll give you all an answer: If you hate women so much you regularly describe them as “cum rags,” “cum dumpsters,” “garbage dumps,” “whores,” “twats,” or any of the other horrible things said by guys in this thread about women in the equally awful comments I didn’t quote, you should take that Going Your Own Way shit a little bit more seriously. Go your own way. Go a long way, off a short pier.
*Fingers on temples a la James McAvoy’s Charles Xavier*
Manchego?
@sparky:
“But just because a woman is a virgin, doesn’t mean she doesn’t value sex. Just because a woman values sex doesn’t mean she’s not willing to wait for it. Just because a woman values sex and/or is not a virgin doesn’t mean she is comparing her current partner to past partner(s), and finding the current one lacking. Just because a past partner has satisfied a woman doesn’t mean she can’t possibly be satisfied with her current partner. And just because a woman has focused on her education and/or career does not mean he sex life has suffered.”
THIS. So much THIS.
Seriously, I am a mass of contradictions. I am a woman who has willingly waited her whole life (I am in my early 40’s) for sex, and am likely to wait quite a bit longer, because I believe FOR ME in waiting for marriage, and there are no current prospects for that. Seriously, even in my daydreams, I can’t get to sex until my dream-lover and I are married. Never could. It’s weird. I also get extremely horny, especially right before my period, and believe me, I LOOK FORWARD to having sex with my husband. I have lots of honeymoon-fantasies then. However, having been witness to a whole lot of messy break-ups, as much as I value sex, I value certain other personality characteristics more. Also, I’ve waited this long, if I have to choose between a man who physically does it for me, and a man who fills my soul with joy, I’ll take the soul joy, because I know I can deal with celibacy, so I can certainly also deal with a less-than-adequate sex life. I *want* sex, but do not *need* sex, or I would have exploded fifteen years ago. There’s a difference. It’s important to me, but other things are more important to me. Kindness, patience, and a good sense of fun rank right at the top. Also, I have no problem with the idea of using sex toys and masturbation within marriage, to make sure that both partners have their needs met, whatever that level of libido is. I’d be willing to try BDSM, if it floats his boat. I do have a problem with bringing in outside lovers to fill the need, but I totally understand that other people are completely OK with that, and polyamory is a real thing. If my husband is into polyamory, that’s something to discuss and strategize about before the wedding. For instance, maybe role-playing would help fulfill his needs in that respect, while maintaining my need for monogamy. Wigs and stage make-up? No problem. Communication and compromise are key. The most important thing to me is that he shares my understanding of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. My faith is important to me, and that is just one of my deal-breakers. Not that we couldn’t be friends, but to share a life together, for ME it is important to share, at a minimum, that particular piece of faith. Note – I did not say, “He must be a Mormon, like me.” I said he has to share my understanding of the Atonement. Not all Mormons do share that understanding. They probably think I’ve got it wrong. These are things we need to discuss BEFORE committing.
TEAL DEAR – I am complex, and so are my needs/desires for a sexual relationship.
The thing is, I’m reasonably sure that I am not the only mass of contradictions in the world. Women are not a monolith. We’re all so different from each other. You just have to be open, and keep looking for the one who fits your specific needs.
@Undfreedland
Just be sure that what you need is real, and not what someone else told you you need. Did the “I need a virgin” idea come from someone else? Is that someone really happy? Is that someone *so much like you* that their needs and desires can truly be used as a template for your own? If not, then it probably won’t really make you happy, after all.
If you are serious, then self-examination seems in order here. Know yourself, and you will know what to look for in a woman.
Unless you’re just trolling, just to troll, in which case, please go away.
All of this!
undfreeleand,
I heard a caller asking Dan Savage (Season 1 or 2…I dunno) how to help her husband, (who was really into swinging with her) to explain to people that they swung with that he could not get it up for strangers, even though he liked having sex with them. He was gung ho to do manual and oral stuff on the first date, but it took his cock longer to warm up to new friends.
If he has an experienced wife and multiple partners and can still be open about his shy penis, so can you.
You take a long time to orgasm? Factor that into your sex life. Tell women up front, “Look, I may not get hard the first few goes and when I do, you may not be able to get me to cum. So, let’s make this all about you and you be a pillow princess for a few nights.” If she’s prepared and your confident, you can both relax and have fun. That doesn’t mean everything will work out peachy all the time, but at least you’ll be honest with the people you are intimate with.
Now please, go forth and stop being an embittered misogynist who uses words like “settle” when he talks about his prospective lovers. That doesn’t show much affection for them or for yourself.
For the “what books do I have checked out of the library?” game:
Using the methodology of “my experience + limited knowledge of pseudo stranger on the internet = answer” — Nothing. You can’t find your library card.
“I am complex, and so are my needs/desires for a sexual relationship.”
You could definitely put that on a T-shirt and plenty of people would wear it.
Addendum:
3: inclined to judge a bunch of humanity that has a biological constitution not typically associated with that bunch of humanity alluded to (trans women)
Anyone who discriminates against trans women is automatically a misogynist because transmisogyny is simply another form of misogyny.
“For the “what books do I have checked out of the library?” game:
Using the methodology of “my experience + limited knowledge of pseudo stranger on the internet = answer” — Nothing. You can’t find your library card.”
Ooh i wanna play! 😀
You checked out: nothing recently. You’ve been avoiding the library cuz you owe late fees.
Right back at you: It’s in your wallet. You just keep mistaking it for your Rite Aid Wellness Plus card because they’re the same color.
@weirwoodtreehugger
I’ve had a couple of friends say they don’t enjoy receiving oral sex, both men and women. Obviously this doesn’t mean it’s PIV or bust for them though, and even if it did, it wouldn’t mean that they represent all of humanity. I’m not just being argumentative, the notion that everyone loves oral sex has made it hard for them to get some of their partners to understand and respect their boundaries.
I do actually feel more comfortable with people who are around the same experience level as me but that’s because I’m arse at vocalising and setting my boundaries sexually and I’ve had more luck maintaining my boundaries with women who are not much more experienced than me. This is obviously a flawed tactic because there are women who are as experienced as me who are very eager to gain more experiences and/or are less experienced at picking up on their lovers’ cues as far as discomfort goes both physically and emotionally. And, as has been ably demonstrated both in this thread and real life, there are many experienced women that are more skilled at meeting their lovers at their comfort level than someone whose inexperienced. Crucially, however, I recognize that this is MY hangup, and don’t foist it on women and demand that they solve it.
@weirwoodtreehugger: “I have never, ever heard a woman complain about a guy who give oral. Not once. I’m having a hard time buying this.”
Your point is so valid! I have heard two (ONLY 2) women complain that they do not like to receive oral sex. However, neither one complained about the man who gave it to them. They loved that he was willing, and were disappointed to discover that particular act just did not push their buttons. They both went on to discover what *did* turn them on, and have had fulfilling sex lives since then, with those very same men.
@undfreedland
I really hate to break this to you, but most inexperienced women still know what bad sex feels like. Even if they don’t realise it immediately because excitement of the first time/being with a new person etc, they’ll figure out pretty soon. Most people – even people who don’t spend much time thinking about sex or exploring their own desires – know that feeling bored and listless while you’re naked with another person ≠ good sex.
Fortunately, sex is a skill you can work on! Someone upthread mentioned reading erotica written by women, which is a great idea. Introduce toys. Explore kinks. Sex is so so SO much more than sticking body parts inside other body parts. Communicate. I don’t have a study for this or anything, but I can confirm from personal experience that sex is approximately one million billion times better when you actively communicate with your partner before, after and during. Also, there are plenty of women out there with low to moderate sex drives who will be pleasantly surprised to meet a guy who wants to take it slow when it comes to sex (because a lot of guys, regardless of their personal preferences, feel pressured to play the role of the virile manly man who literally never does not want sex).
Also, there is a large proportion of women who typically find it quite difficult to climax, and therefore don’t consider orgasms the holy grail of sex. I certainly don’t, despite having a higher-than-average sex drive. Don’t get me wrong, orgasms are lovely, but honestly I used to worry about orgasms so much that it actively interfered with my enjoyment of sex: “Am I going to have one? Will his feelings be hurt? What should I say? Oh damn, now I’m worrying about it, which distracting me from the sex that is happening right now, which means I’m definitely not going to cum!” As soon as I stopped worrying, sex became so much better, and I even started having more orgasms because I wasn’t so bloody fixated on my inability to have them that I could just let go and enjoy myself. Guess how I came to this awesome realization, that improved sex for me exponentially and also took a lot of unnecessary pressure of my partners? That’s right! EXPERIENCE.
So yeah, I echo everyone else who has said what you really need is an experienced woman. You don’t get better at chess by playing with people who have literally just learned the rules. Find someone who knows what she likes and how to ask for it. Because honestly, your ex doesn’t sound like she was great at sex, as well as being kind of a shitty person. If she was faking sexual enjoyment for years, how could you possibly know what you were doing wrong and how to improve? Her inability or unwillingness to communicate anything useful about her sexual desires during a two year relationship is totally her problem, not yours.
Go into any and all sexual encounters with enthusiasm, generosity and willingness to learn, and you can’t really go wrong. Even if you do go wrong, that’s a learning opportunity too… not just for “technique” or whatever, but for you to figure out something new about you and your sex drive and ergo what kind of partner you would be most compatible with.
This has been tinyorc’s driveby sex counselling service.
Thanks, Lea!
Ally S – On point #3. Second that.
Und, you sound confused. Have a little light reading. And when you’re done with that, go do some heavy reading. And whatever you do, don’t pull weird stories out of your ass around here, ‘kay?
@RandomPoster
Paragraph breaks: learn them. Love them.
Paragraph break are misandry!
Howard Bannister – by some ridiculous, meaningless coincidence, I have Pratchett’s “Long Earth” checked out as we speak *.
The ‘human predictability’ issue makes me think of sovereign citizens, who, with apparent sincerity, believe that a certain combination of words in a specific order will cause them to become invulnerable to governmental authority. Like ceremonial magicians, but without the work or intelligence. Also, when I read Random Pester’s references to ‘human females ‘ I imagine it being said with a Ferengi accent for some reason.
*We’re not literally speaking, but then you knew that.
Michelle, what does CNMO stand for (I think it was in this thread; I’m getting them blurred a bit)
Skye, I believe it’s ‘non-committee make out’. I Googled it – surprised the heck out of me. There’s a lot to cultural Mormonism that does not get brought up by the missionaries; must be part of the ‘milk before meat’ approach.
Sorry, non-committed. Fie on thee, autocorrect!
Arctic Ape:
How about this, then?
NCMO – Non-committal make-out. It’s by no means a “milk before meat” doctrine thing. It’s not doctrine, at all. I never heard of it until I went to college in Utah.
There is Mormon doctrine and Mormon culture. Although I was brought up by a Utah Mormon, I was brought up far away from Utah, and avoided a lot of the Mormon culture. I was quite shocked by it, when I went to Utah. However, I’m glad of that experience, because I learned how to differentiate between culture and doctrine. When the cognitive dissonance sets in, I can say, “That’s not actually doctrine. It’s not in the scriptures,” and move on.
Sometimes, though, it can be problematic.
I nearly spewed Coke all over my screen at that pic, kittehserf! Thanks!
ZOMG, that fedora-Justinian looks like Father Guido Sarducci. Dying of laughter here!
Thank you, thank you! ::bows::
Robert – non-committee make out sounds kind of interesting. I’m trying to work out if committee make outs would be committees making out, or committees organising make outs, or committees watching other people making out.
katz: I recuse myself from guessing specific titles, because that way lies madness. I also have some other intimations which tell me you have books about WW2, and Nazis in particular.
But I’m not using Pester John’s method. On that basis I think you to be reading about bronze statuary of the classical period.