Men’s Rights Activists tend to be fairly blunt; when they express a noxious opinion – and oh so many of their opinions are noxious – they do it in the most obnoxious possible way. It isn’t enough for Paul Elam of A Voice for Men to blame victims of rape; he also has to call them “STUPID, CONNIVING BITCH[es]” wearing the equivalent of PLEASE RAPE ME neon sign[s] glowing above their empty little narcissistic heads.”
Warren Farrell is different. He takes a softer approach. He would never call a woman a bitch or a whore or a cunt. When he speaks, he manages to sound gentle and caring. He talks about the importance of listening to others. He sometimes even manages to give the impression that he cares as much about women as he does about men.
And yet his ideas are as noxious as Elam’s. He is as much of a victim blamer as any slur-spouting MGTOWer complaining about “stuck-up cunts” on an internet message board.
It’s just that he does his victim blaming with such carefully evasive language that he’s able to hide the noxiousness of his ideas – and to avoid taking responsibility for them when he’s challenged on them.
So it wasn’t surprising that a lot of the questions directed at him during his Reddit Ask Me Anything session the other day were attempts to pin down the real meaning of some of his more troubling pronouncements over the years.
A Redditor by the name of fiskitall asked Farrell about a quote from his Myth of Male Power that I also had hoped to see him clarify:
It is important that a woman’s “noes” be respected and her “yeses” be respected. And it is also important when her nonverbal “yeses” (tongues still touching) conflict with those verbal “noes” that the man not be put in jail for choosing the “yes” over the “no.” He might just be trying to become her fantasy.
Though worded with characteristic evasiveness, Farrell seems to be suggesting that men should not be prosecuted for raping women who explicitly tell them “no” if they think that these women are somehow giving them a “nonverbal” go-ahead. His “tongues still touching line” suggests specifically that he thinks a woman who kisses a man is essentially consenting to sex.
So how does he explain this quote? He starts off by trying to explain the bit at the end about fantasy:
the quote comes from the politics of sex chapter of The Myth of Male Power. The point that “He might just be trying to become her fantasy” comes after a discussion of how romance novels and, in my 2014 edition, books like 50 Shades of Grey–books that are the female fantasy–are rarely titled, “He Stopped When I Said ‘No.'” The point is that women’s romance novels are still fantasizing the male-female dichotomy of attract/resist versus pursue/persist, and the law is increasingly punishing that as sexual harassment or date rape.
Beneath the weirdly academic verbiage – all that crap about “the male-female dichotomy of attract/resist” and so on – Farrell is advancing an idea that is really quite insidious: the notion that the popularity of rape fantasies in romance novels and in books like 50 Shades of Grey means that women actually want men to disregard their “noes.” Not only that: he seems to suggest that it’s unfair to prosecute men who rape women because, heck, for all they knew the woman is into that sort of thing.
As I pointed out in a followup question that he ignored,
I’m not sure how the fact that women read romance novels means that they don’t really mean no when they say no. That’s fantasy, not reality. I play video games in which people shoot at me; it doesn’t mean I want people to shoot me in real life.
He continues, his language growing more confusing and evasive:
the law is about dichotomy: guilty vs. innocent. male-female sexual attraction is about nuance. the court can’t begin to address the nuances of the male-female tango. the male role is punishable by law. women have not been resocialized to share the risks of rejection by expectation, only by option. the male role is being criminalized; the female increasingly has the option of calling his role courtship when she likes it, and taking him to court when she doesn’t.
The only real “tango” going on here is in Farrell’s language, in his attempts to so muddy the issue of consent that he manages to suggest that rapists are the victims of women’s “poor socialization” and caprice. In real life, the “male role” is not criminalized; men aren’t jailed for asking women out on dates, or going for a kiss at the end of the night; they’re being jailed for overriding a woman’s “noes” and raping them, though in actuality it is rare for a rapist to see the inside of a jail cell.
And that last bit – his complaint that women have “the option of calling his role courtship when she likes it, and taking him to court when she doesn’t” – seems to be little more than a deliberately confounding way of expressing his frustration that women are allowed to say no at all.
the answer is education about each sex’s fears and feelings–and that education being from early junior high school. we need to focus on making adolescence a better preparation for real love within the framework of respect for the differences in our hormones.
I confess I don’t quite know what he’s talking about here; as far as I can figure it, based on some of the things he’s written in the Myth of Male Power, the reference to “the differences in our hormones” is his way of suggesting that we should be more forgiving of boys when they make sexual “mistakes.” Boys will be boys!
the most dangerous thing that’s going on in some colleges is saying that a woman who says “yes” but is drunk can say in the morning that she was raped, because she was drunk and wasn’t responsible. this is like saying someone who drinks and gets in the car and has an accident is not responsible and shouldn’t get a DUI because she or he is drunk. we would never say the guy isn’t responsible for raping her because he’s drunk. these rules infantalize women and the female role, and criminalize men and the male role.
Well, no. They criminalize people who rape drunk people. A woman who is raped when she is drunk is not the equivalent of a drunk driver; she’s not the one doing the driving.
In his classic essay “Politics and the English Language,” George Orwell described how political writers turned to evasive euphemism, and degraded language generally, in an attempt to disguise the sheer terribleness of the things they were trying to express.
In our time, political speech and writing are largely the defense of the indefensible. Things like the continuance of British rule in India, the Russian purges and deportations, the dropping of the atom bombs on Japan, can indeed be defended, but only by arguments which are too brutal for most people to face, and which do not square with the professed aims of the political parties. Thus political language has to consist largely of euphemism, question-begging and sheer cloudy vagueness. Defenseless villages are bombarded from the air, the inhabitants driven out into the countryside, the cattle machine-gunned, the huts set on fire with incendiary bullets: this is called pacification. Millions of peasants are robbed of their farms and sent trudging along the roads with no more than they can carry: this is called transfer of population or rectification of frontiers. People are imprisoned for years without trial, or shot in the back of the neck or sent to die of scurvy in Arctic lumber camps: this is called elimination of unreliable elements.
It’s easy enough to see that this is exactly Farrell’s game. He can’t say “men shouldn’t be jailed for raping women who say no, because a lot of women have rape fantasies, and so maybe they’re into it” even though this seems to be the most straightforward translation of his basic message.
So instead he talks about how “romance novels are still fantasizing the male-female dichotomy of attract/resist versus pursue/persist”; he complains that “ the male role is being criminalized”; he talks vaguely about creating “the framework of respect for the differences in our hormones.”
But in the end, what he’s saying is worse than Elam’s rant about “conniving bitches” with neon signs over their heads. He just knows how to make the indefensible more palatable to a general audience.
:facepalm: We’ve been over this! I am, as we speak, working on a manuscript where one of the good guys shoots and kills someone. Would that make you freak out and go “Even if she isn’t a murderer herself, I wonder if she will have as much sympathy with a murdered friend as I do? Or would a murder story from a friend just aid her in her fantasies?”
Of course not, because you are not a small toddler and are therefore able to tell the difference between real and make-believe. When you want to.
That accusation that a woman whose kink revolves around rape fantasies would use her friend’s trauma as spank bank material was a genuinely vile thing to say. Seriously, feel shame.
I will actually give that flounce a relatively high score of 5/10. It’s not very innovative, but it’s a good, serviceable example of the “classic” flounce, wherein one declares that one will no longer discuss a subject, but only after a massive wall of text saying everything one could possibly have to say on the subject, and bearing a strong subtext that everyone else should stop talking about the subject and let her get the last word in.
@Retha
“People who enjoy playing at rape and kidnapping in their scenes love rape so much that I am unsure if they are safe people. Even if they are not rapists themselves, I wonder if they will have as much sympathy with a raped friend as I do? Or would a rape story from a friend just aid them in their fantasies?”
The FUCK is wrong with you? Both my fiancee and I have been raped. My fiancee enjoys sex scenes where I “force” her into sex with the difference being that we HAVE A SAFE WORD. Does that mean she “enjoyed” getting rape??? FUCK NO. You are absolutely disgusting for saying otherwise. There is no comparison between the two because before the scene we BOTH give consent, and we STOP the second either of us says the safe word or is in too much pain.
Fuck you.
“I said RubyRubyRuby’s comment on liking to see someone battered (the giving pain part, not the recieving) have not been contradicted yet.”
So it’s utterly impossible to enjoy making your PARTNER happy??? My partner enjoys receiving pain, and I enjoy inflicting it BECAUSE SHE ENJOYS IT.
“People who are sober understand drunkenness better than the drunk, and awake people can discuss sleep better than the sleeping.”
The comparison between sleeping, being drunk, and being in BDSM makes no sense whatsoever. While sleeping you’re incapacitated, and when drunk you are as well (I assume what you mean by “drunk” is “so drunk you are incapable of giving consent”). That isn’t the case if you’re into kink.
” “Beaten” is indeed something that happen in BDSM – people are whipped, slapped, caned, etc. in it.”
What exactly makes this wrong if EVERYONE is giving enthusiastic consent and a safe word is used?
Have you ever stopped to think that this is not a place exclusively reserved for balanced, mature people all equally intelligent and capable of abstract thinking and not being an emotional, childish wreck and that if people are too immature to have an adequate discussion with for your taste, you might simply not engage?
I can tell he’s bumblefuck immature. Doesn’t mean you couldn’t have been nicer to begin with. It’s not cause his responses were childish and ignorant, that you were right to jump to conclusions and treat him like a troll to begin with.
You’re free to disagree, but I don’t have to like that people who ask questions about certain topics because they are confused and ignorant, are treated with suspicion and frustration from the get-go and have all their attempts at apology and clarification completely ignored and put down on the grounds of “omg you’re such a child and also I don’t agree with you”. I’m also not going to continue this discussion. Here’s my point. Do with it what you will.
Nice attempt at “last word!”, but nope. If you enjoy engaging with people who’re juvenile, not particularly bright, and so on, there are plenty of internet spaces where that can be done. There’s no particular reason why this space needs to become one of them, especially if many of the current participants would prefer that it didn’t.
Look if you want to his hand and change his nappy, fine, that’s on you. Knock yourself out. You don’t get to barge into an established space and tell us we’re doin’ it wrong.
I know exactly what you can do with your point.
Angelica hasn’t even tried to reach out to the kid herself and offer advice/resources/whatever, which you’d think would be the first thing one would try if one genuinely felt that people here ought to be doing that.
The exact same kind of thing at my college, and perhaps unsurprisingly, I was on the non-drinking side at the time. Although honestly both sides were pretty awful, since the drinkers tried to pressure the non-drinkers into drinking.
Good point. She’s more than happy to do nothing and wank at us.
@cassandrakitty Sorry, I’m laughing so hard and I’m REALLY wondering:
Then WHY the hell DID you?
Besides, my opinion on how you treated that guy isn’t going to change, you’re not going to change my mind and I’m not going to change yours, my as a result not feeling the need to further debate it, does not in any way restrict your possibilities to throw another reply behind mine if you feel like it. I don’t really see how that should be a problem. I’m also not the type to not get back into something if I see something that rubs me soooo unbelievably the wrong way that I would not sleep comfortably without addressing it.
I believe, of the two of us, you were the one engaging with someone juvenile, not particularly bright and so on, and if this is not a place you, as a current participant, would like to become one of those spaces where that happens, then I seriously wonder why you would keep engaging him in the first place. I also believe I was the one who said that not engaging people you deem too immature and ignorant to converse with, was a valid alternative to keep throwing shit at them, which we all know doesn’t make them go away, and which is also by any standards not a very nice thing to do. If it is your opinion that merely someone’s ignorance and immaturity is an invitation or a good enough excuse for you to treat them like garbage, that makes you a very shitty person in my book.
“The point that “He might just be trying to become her fantasy” comes after a discussion of how romance novels and, in my 2014 edition, books like 50 Shades of Grey–books that are the female fantasy–are rarely titled, “He Stopped When I Said ‘No.’” ”
The difference between a rape fantasy and RAPE is like saying that your are hungry enough to eat a horse and then having someone shove an entire, putrid horse carcass down your throat
FUCKING ASSHOLE
Angelica: maybe you don’t know this community? We feed trolls until they burst.
Just stop with the tone arguments, and don’t call my friend shitty. I don’t know you from a hill of beans, and frankly I don’t care to.
Public service announcement:
Barging into a space and demanding that one of the regulars leave because you don’t like zir has never worked in the past and it will never work in the future.
If you can’t tell the difference between engaging and mocking, then I’m not sure that I’m going to be able to help you. I’ll need to start charging for my time if I do. Mocking them does make them go away, too, it just sometimes takes a little while.
Like hellkell said – if you want to engage with people like that in a positive, nurturing way, feel free to do it yourself.
I’m trying to imagine someone forcibly stuffing a horse down another’s throat. That sounds just awful.
Is this person part anaconda?
Also a bit OT but did non-Brits hear about the scandal with horsemeat being used in frozen lasagna in the UK, labelled as beef? That gave me a nice little week or two of supermarket-related paranoia.
I heard about the non-beef. I’ve never been 100% sure that’s beef.
There was an issue with some sort of veterinary drug possibly being given to the horses that’s banned from livestock that’s to be consumed by humans in the UK, iirc, on top of all the other related worries that come with not knowing if the food you’re buying is what it says it is.
@hellkell True. I don’t actually know this community. I’m am mostly a very big non-troll-feeder, unless they’re really overly obvious, and I don’t generally cope well when it’s done so easily. But if that’s the standard way you all do here, I’ll gladly ignore the crap out of it in the future and learn to deal.
@katz Nobody asked anybody to leave. I realise somewhat better what the issue is, but please don’t put words in my mouth.
@cassandrakitty Apologies. I realise I can’t possibly have a good clue of the way it generally works around here and mostly reacted from a background of spaces where this type of thing is not considered a productive way of dealing with any situation at all, which is obviously not helpful in itself. I’ll refrain from doing so in the future.
You didn’t ask her to leave, you just said “if this is not a place you, as a current participant, would like to become one of those spaces where that happens, then I seriously wonder why you would keep engaging him in the first place.” That’s completely different.
This latest batch of wankers has a serious case of “stop attributing to me something I obviously implied but didn’t say in those exact words.”
Looked up snakes eating horses and all of the examples I found were mislabeled. They were snakes eating goats or snakes eating little stripey deer. Or Daenerys Targaryen eating the horse heart from the first season.
@katz Uhm, it is completely different. I at that point failed to see the logic in her behaviour based on a statement she made and did not understand how someone could make a point and then seemingly behave in a manner that I couldn’t perceive as supporting that same point. Which is what I said. How is that the same as “gtfo”? I implied she might think for a minute about the discrepancy, before the realisation in my last comment. The two are hardly the same.
@Angelica
Yeah, it’s probably not a good idea to comment, especially angrily, especially at a regular, in a space where you’re not sure how it works. Seriously, as a fellow fairly-new commenter, I lurked for a while until I got a feel for what normally happened around here. And my first comment was still about animals!
Around here, there are A LOT of trolls, who often pull the “but I’m ignorant EXPLAIN IT TO ME card,” and there is literally an entire list of more feminism 101-type resources to the right. Also, genuine requests for help generally apologise when someone calls them out and go “oh crap I had no idea, sorry” rather than “you made me cry you are terrible”