Categories
a voice for men a woman is always to blame antifeminism consent is hard entitled babies evil sexy ladies men who should not ever be with women ever misogyny MRA oppressed men paul elam playing the victim rape rape culture reddit sexual harassment victim blaming warren farrell

Warren Farrell on Date Rape: Defending the Indefensible

George Orwell, meet Warren Farrell
George Orwell, meet Warren Farrell

Men’s Rights Activists tend to be fairly blunt; when they express a noxious opinion – and oh so many of their opinions are noxious – they do it in the most obnoxious possible way. It isn’t enough for Paul Elam of A Voice for Men to blame victims of rape; he also has to call them “STUPID, CONNIVING BITCH[es]” wearing the equivalent of PLEASE RAPE ME neon sign[s] glowing above their empty little narcissistic heads.”

Warren Farrell is different. He takes a softer approach. He would never call a woman a bitch or a whore or a cunt. When he speaks, he manages to sound gentle and caring. He talks about the importance of listening to others. He sometimes even manages to give the impression that he cares as much about women as he does about men.

And yet his ideas are as noxious as Elam’s. He is as much of a victim blamer as any slur-spouting MGTOWer complaining about “stuck-up cunts” on an internet message board.

It’s just that he does his victim blaming with such carefully evasive language that he’s able to hide the noxiousness of his ideas – and to avoid taking responsibility for them when he’s challenged on them.

So it wasn’t surprising that a lot of the questions directed at him during his Reddit Ask Me Anything session the other day were attempts to pin down the real meaning of some of his more troubling pronouncements over the years.

A Redditor by the name of fiskitall asked Farrell about a quote from his Myth of Male Power that I also had hoped to see him clarify:

It is important that a woman’s “noes” be respected and her “yeses” be respected. And it is also important when her nonverbal “yeses” (tongues still touching) conflict with those verbal “noes” that the man not be put in jail for choosing the “yes” over the “no.” He might just be trying to become her fantasy.

Though worded with characteristic evasiveness, Farrell seems to be suggesting that men should not be prosecuted for raping women who explicitly tell them “no” if they think that these women are somehow giving them a “nonverbal” go-ahead. His “tongues still touching line” suggests specifically that he thinks a woman who kisses a man is essentially consenting to sex.

So how does he explain this quote? He starts off by trying to explain the bit at the end about fantasy:

the quote comes from the politics of sex chapter of The Myth of Male Power. The point that “He might just be trying to become her fantasy” comes after a discussion of how romance novels and, in my 2014 edition, books like 50 Shades of Grey–books that are the female fantasy–are rarely titled, “He Stopped When I Said ‘No.'” The point is that women’s romance novels are still fantasizing the male-female dichotomy of attract/resist versus pursue/persist, and the law is increasingly punishing that as sexual harassment or date rape.

Beneath the weirdly academic verbiage – all that crap about “the male-female dichotomy of attract/resist” and so on – Farrell is advancing an idea that is really quite insidious: the notion that the popularity of rape fantasies in romance novels and in books like 50 Shades of Grey means that women actually want men to disregard their “noes.” Not only that: he seems to suggest that it’s unfair to prosecute men who rape women because, heck, for all they knew the woman is into that sort of thing.

As I pointed out in a followup question that he ignored,

I’m not sure how the fact that women read romance novels means that they don’t really mean no when they say no. That’s fantasy, not reality. I play video games in which people shoot at me; it doesn’t mean I want people to shoot me in real life.

He continues, his language growing more confusing and evasive:

the law is about dichotomy: guilty vs. innocent. male-female sexual attraction is about nuance. the court can’t begin to address the nuances of the male-female tango. the male role is punishable by law. women have not been resocialized to share the risks of rejection by expectation, only by option. the male role is being criminalized; the female increasingly has the option of calling his role courtship when she likes it, and taking him to court when she doesn’t.

The only real “tango” going on here is in Farrell’s language, in his attempts to so muddy the issue of consent that he manages to suggest that rapists are the victims of women’s “poor socialization” and caprice. In real life, the “male role” is not criminalized; men aren’t jailed for asking women out on dates, or going for a kiss at the end of the night; they’re being jailed for overriding a woman’s “noes” and raping them, though in actuality it is rare for a rapist to see the inside of a jail cell.

And that last bit – his complaint that women have “the option of calling his role courtship when she likes it, and taking him to court when she doesn’t” – seems to be little more than a deliberately confounding way of expressing his frustration that women are allowed to say no at all.

the answer is education about each sex’s fears and feelings–and that education being from early junior high school. we need to focus on making adolescence a better preparation for real love within the framework of respect for the differences in our hormones.

I confess I don’t quite know what he’s talking about here; as far as I can figure it, based on some of the things he’s written in the Myth of Male Power, the reference to “the differences in our hormones” is his way of suggesting that we should be more forgiving of boys when they make sexual “mistakes.” Boys will be boys!

the most dangerous thing that’s going on in some colleges is saying that a woman who says “yes” but is drunk can say in the morning that she was raped, because she was drunk and wasn’t responsible. this is like saying someone who drinks and gets in the car and has an accident is not responsible and shouldn’t get a DUI because she or he is drunk. we would never say the guy isn’t responsible for raping her because he’s drunk. these rules infantalize women and the female role, and criminalize men and the male role.

Well, no. They criminalize people who rape drunk people. A woman who is raped when she is drunk is not the equivalent of a drunk driver; she’s not the one doing the driving.

In his classic essay “Politics and the English Language,” George Orwell described how political writers turned to evasive euphemism, and degraded language generally, in an attempt to disguise the sheer terribleness of the things they were trying to express.

In our time, political speech and writing are largely the defense of the indefensible. Things like the continuance of British rule in India, the Russian purges and deportations, the dropping of the atom bombs on Japan, can indeed be defended, but only by arguments which are too brutal for most people to face, and which do not square with the professed aims of the political parties. Thus political language has to consist largely of euphemism, question-begging and sheer cloudy vagueness. Defenseless villages are bombarded from the air, the inhabitants driven out into the countryside, the cattle machine-gunned, the huts set on fire with incendiary bullets: this is called pacification. Millions of peasants are robbed of their farms and sent trudging along the roads with no more than they can carry: this is called transfer of population or rectification of frontiers. People are imprisoned for years without trial, or shot in the back of the neck or sent to die of scurvy in Arctic lumber camps: this is called elimination of unreliable elements.

It’s easy enough to see that this is exactly Farrell’s game. He can’t say “men shouldn’t be jailed for raping women who say no, because a lot of women have rape fantasies, and so maybe they’re into it” even though this seems to be the most straightforward translation of his basic message.

So instead he talks about how “romance novels are still fantasizing the male-female dichotomy of attract/resist versus pursue/persist”; he complains that “ the male role is being criminalized”; he talks vaguely about creating “the framework of respect for the differences in our hormones.”

But in the end, what he’s saying is worse than Elam’s rant about “conniving bitches” with neon signs over their heads. He just knows how to make the indefensible more palatable to a general audience.

370 Comments
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
hellkell
hellkell
10 years ago

Rillian: if you can’t see why your 4th tale of woe isn’t comparable, I don’t know what to tell you. Well, I do, but you’ll think it’s mean.

hellkell
hellkell
10 years ago

Rillian: This is not an advice blog. This is a blog for mocking misogynists.

titianblue
titianblue
10 years ago

But @cassandrakitty, surely the most important thing we can do with our time is talk about Rilian’s shoolchild experiences and whether she was justified in hitting another 9 year old. And whether her teachers’ reactions were fair.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
10 years ago

If I’d wanted to raise kids I’d have had some of my own.

Rilian
Rilian
10 years ago

I didn’t say it was comparable, I said it was an issue of consent. She was telling me to hit her. She wasn’t drunk at the time or impaired in any way that I could tell.

People discuss things in the comments. People were ALREADY discussing consent. They were sharing ideas in the hopes of, I infer, getting themselves and everyone else closer to the truth.

I guess it’s my own fault that I got a couple of mean-spirited responses. It’s my fault for thinking that anyone ever in the whole world was ever a good person or would ever try to be a good person. Come on, what did I expect? /victim blaming

Rilian
Rilian
10 years ago

titianblue:

“But @cassandrakitty, surely the most important thing we can do with our time is talk about Rilian’s shoolchild experiences and whether she was justified in hitting another 9 year old. And whether her teachers’ reactions were fair.”

If you don’t think it’s worth your time, then don’t respond to me.

And stop calling me “she”.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
10 years ago

So weird that a 9 year old wasn’t drunk. We should totes spend more time on this fascinating and totally true story.

titianblue
titianblue
10 years ago

Rillian: Making you a better person? That’s your job. Not ours.

And this isn’t feminism 101. Or consent 101. Look elsewhere if that’s what you need because this is not it.

marinerachel
marinerachel
10 years ago

I’m all for feedback in order to help people do better. It’s not something people are responsible for giving or others are entitled to recieving. Not everyone at every locale any time is ready or willing to advise and give counsel. You gotta respect that and seek it elsewhere if you want to do better. Sometimes people just don’t want to and that’s OK. It’s exhausting, being everyone’s behavioural advisor. Unwillingness to engage often isn’t because people are assholes. Sometimes they’re just fucking tired of going over the same shit over and over again.

hellkell
hellkell
10 years ago

I guess it’s my own fault that I got a couple of mean-spirited responses. It’s my fault for thinking that anyone ever in the whole world was ever a good person or would ever try to be a good person. Come on, what did I expect? /victim blaming

OH THE HUGE MANATEE.

Kid, go call your mom.

tinyorc
10 years ago

Retha:

People who are sober understand drunkenness better than the drunk,

So wrong. When I was in college my group of friends was split pretty much even down the center between people who drank (including me) and people who had never touched alcohol in their lives. The teetotallers (understandably) had very little understanding of what it feels like to be drunk. Some of them seemed to think that getting drunk also transforms you into an idiot and would start talking you in a baby voice after two glasses of wine. They were also had lots of theories about the reasons people drink (“You’re obviously insecure!” “You do it for attention!” “You’re using it for stress relief!”) none of which were particularly applicable to me but they would nonetheless lecture me about in great detail. Someone who has never been drunk does not understand the attraction of being drunk or how it effects your state of mind. And that’s fine. They’ve never been drunk, so how could they know? But lecturing people who do drink on finer points of how they think it might effect your mental state is pretty obnoxious if you have never tried it yourself.

titianblue
titianblue
10 years ago

I’m sorry, Rillian. What are your pronouns of choice?

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
10 years ago

Oh, hey, actually I do have one piece of advice on how to become a better person. Ready?

Stop thinking that the universe and all the people in it should orient itself around you. An ego of at least vaguely portable dimensions is a vital part of being a decent human being.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
10 years ago

@ tinyorc

Wow, I missed that part. This is a fun game! People who have never baked understand baking much better than bakers. People who can’t drive understand driving much better than bus drivers. People who can’t swim are the ones who really know all about swimming, so if we want to learn how we should go ask them.

tinyorc
10 years ago

And people who think kink is weird and disgusting are totally the best objective critics of the role of kink in our society! /s

tinyorc
10 years ago

Seriously though, re: the kink conversation on here.

I would describe myself as a kink-critical feminist, because I don’t think kink exists in a vacuum sealed away from the patriarchy and it’s important to discuss the intersection (as emilygoddess said). I’m also a staunchly sex-positive feminist, so I fundamentally believe that anything happens between two consenting adults is their own business and none of mine. Also, most of the kinky women are also fiercely intelligent and incisive feminists, and I don’t think that’s a coincidence. So basically, I get conflicted a lot and try to do as much listening to both sides of the argument as I can.

1) Don’t tell other people how they do or don’t feel about their relationships and their sexual preferences. If you disapprove, then go ahead and disapprove, but don’t pretend you understand why people choose to engage in BDSM relationships.
2) Don’t tell women they only think they’re enjoying themselves, but secretly that’s not really what they want. Because that is some Patriarchy 101 bullshit and patronizing as hell.
3) Don’t make sweeping pronouncements on people’s mental health based on your opinion of the morality of their sex lives. Like seriously, what on earth is wrong with you?

In other words, Ruby and Retha, analyzing kink is important. Painting large groups of people as damaged psychopaths and potential rapists is a) not analysis and b) offensive to a mind-boggling amount of people. If you want to effectively critique kink, get that shit out of your rhetoric.

marinerachel
marinerachel
10 years ago

My exposure to “the community” radicalised me. I have never been exposed to such a profoundly heteronormative, anti-feminist, misogynist and, sadly, not-so-bright group of people in my life as I was during my time interacting in kink-oriented circles.

I have no idea where people have these super positive experiences in kink circles because when I delved into it all the people who shared my positions were as mortified as I was. We had to eek out our own, fairly exclusionary clubhouse to escape the noxiousness of “the community” and most of us eventually abandoned it, desperately wishing not to be associated with or exposed to it anymore.

Angelica
10 years ago

Did you seriously all just miss the part where the 4th grade tale was simply an analogy to clarify the situation in which a pretty damn drunk person actively throws themself at you, begs for sex and gets upset/angry/irritated/fucking annoying when you’re not inclined to fuck them because you kinda think it wouldn’t be right? Cause that does happen, and I get that can be super bothersome. Not to say that one should then simply screw a person just to get rid of their nagging, but can you all chill out just for a little bit? Not everyone is all up into the finer notions of what is and is not deemed appropriate or offensive or “needless to say”, to name a few things, in the (feminist) conversation about consent. Sometimes people who mean well, say stupid shit. I feel all of you could have been a tad less bitchy about the whole thing. In my own entirely personal opinion, I believe you should do yourselves a favour and get over this discussion already, and @Rilian, that includes you.

All that comes with a “pretty please” and an optional ribbon for those with exceptionally long toes.

titianblue
titianblue
10 years ago

@Angelica, dear gods, not “bitchy”. feel free to tell us we’re being unfair, snarky, cruel, whatever. But not “bitchy”!

And a person doesn’t have to be drunk to keep asking for something and then regret it after you finally acquiesce. Once, a person was chasing me around the room shouting “hit me! hit me!” so I finally hit her, hoping that would get her to leave me alone, and she dropped to the floor crying and I got in trouble (this was in 4th grade). That situation is kind of different because I was also defending myself, but but but I confused am.

And did you really not see Rillian’s implications of “crying rape after drunken sex she regretted”?

It was a pretty crap analogy for “accidnetally” raping someone who is horny but drunk and Rillian seemed to think it grossly unfair that the horny drunk equivalent (the girl asking to be hit – who obviously didn’t really want to be hit and was only doing what she was doing to deliberately provoke Rillian) wasn’t punished equally for her behaviour (yep, agree with him that the little girl was partially at fault, although the teachers might have felt being punched by Rillian was a sufficient punishment & lesson) which seems a pretty horrible attitude towards horny drunks.

And in case it wasn’t clear, Rillian.

1, Do not hit a child. Even if they specifically ask for it.
2. Do not have sex with someone if you have any reason whatsoever to think that their ability to give full consent is impaired. This concept should not be so bloody hard to understand.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
10 years ago

Gotta say, not really inclined to take lessons about appropriate behavior from a woman who refers to other women as “bitchy”.

@ marinerachel

I’ve had some pretty unpleasant experiences with the kink community too. Which still doesn’t mean that all the stuff the two earlier were spouting about that all kinky people being pure concentrated evil wasn’t pretty dumb and offensive, because it was, not least because it clearly wasn’t coming from a position of experience at all.

marinerachel
marinerachel
10 years ago

Oh, I’m under no impression whatsoever that errrrrrrone involved in kink is shit. I made some great friends. My experiences have been overwhelmingly negative though and I was radicalised as a feminist by them. I have no idea where people who talk about kink being full of highly evolved individuals all espousing understanding of consent and equality are hanging out because everything I’ve encountered all over North America re: kink is, overwhelmingly, the opposite.

I’ve got no beef with individuals who identify as kinky or kink it’s self. I don’t believe all kinky people are shit or that kink makes people shit. That’s a fucking ridiculous opinion, particularly coming from a position of ignorance. I just consider the prevailing ‘tudes and behaviours in that community a cancer and can’t begin to relate to the stellar reviews others give it.

titianblue
titianblue
10 years ago

And the moment Rillion lost my good faith? This:

cassandrakitty
“A. Yes, you do, if you’re paying attention and looking for enthusiastic consent.”

What about the person who was chasing me and shouting “hit me!”?
The culture didn’t back me. I got in trouble for that.

Because either Rillion is actually arguing that a child yelling “hit me” is giving enthusiastic consent to being hit.

Or Rillion is arguing that this childhood example would be reflected in the way culture would react to an accusation of rape because the way teachers react to a schoolchild hitting another schoolchild is how police react to an accusation of rape when the accuser was drunk.

And now I’m sorry to have kept on this for so long. I will try to leave it alone.

hellkell
hellkell
10 years ago

I feel all of you could have been a tad less bitchy about the whole thing.

I feel you might have chosen another term. I feel you can fuck off.

Angelica
10 years ago

Please. I’d call a man’s overly snarky behaviour equally bitchy. But apologies. I’m not a native English speaker, that word possibly doesn’t carry the same weight for me because it’s simply not in my everyday vocabulary.

But I do think you’re all awfully quick to accuse someone who just might be genuinly confused, possibly not all that well versed in the issue and somewhat a bit immature, of MRA-type creepy rape-apologising, victim-blamey propaganda. Being immature and ignorant is not a fucking crime. Maybe keep the rage for those who actually come ‘splaining, not for the ones genuinly asking questions. Frankly, defensive, incoherent behaviour is to be expected after the disproportionate reaction got.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
10 years ago

No, it’s really not. Most people are capable of responding to criticism without going “omg you made me cry you big meanies, also why won’t everyone be my life coaches?”

1 5 6 7 8 9 15