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Warren Farrell on Date Rape: Defending the Indefensible

George Orwell, meet Warren Farrell
George Orwell, meet Warren Farrell

Men’s Rights Activists tend to be fairly blunt; when they express a noxious opinion – and oh so many of their opinions are noxious – they do it in the most obnoxious possible way. It isn’t enough for Paul Elam of A Voice for Men to blame victims of rape; he also has to call them “STUPID, CONNIVING BITCH[es]” wearing the equivalent of PLEASE RAPE ME neon sign[s] glowing above their empty little narcissistic heads.”

Warren Farrell is different. He takes a softer approach. He would never call a woman a bitch or a whore or a cunt. When he speaks, he manages to sound gentle and caring. He talks about the importance of listening to others. He sometimes even manages to give the impression that he cares as much about women as he does about men.

And yet his ideas are as noxious as Elam’s. He is as much of a victim blamer as any slur-spouting MGTOWer complaining about “stuck-up cunts” on an internet message board.

It’s just that he does his victim blaming with such carefully evasive language that he’s able to hide the noxiousness of his ideas – and to avoid taking responsibility for them when he’s challenged on them.

So it wasn’t surprising that a lot of the questions directed at him during his Reddit Ask Me Anything session the other day were attempts to pin down the real meaning of some of his more troubling pronouncements over the years.

A Redditor by the name of fiskitall asked Farrell about a quote from his Myth of Male Power that I also had hoped to see him clarify:

It is important that a woman’s “noes” be respected and her “yeses” be respected. And it is also important when her nonverbal “yeses” (tongues still touching) conflict with those verbal “noes” that the man not be put in jail for choosing the “yes” over the “no.” He might just be trying to become her fantasy.

Though worded with characteristic evasiveness, Farrell seems to be suggesting that men should not be prosecuted for raping women who explicitly tell them “no” if they think that these women are somehow giving them a “nonverbal” go-ahead. His “tongues still touching line” suggests specifically that he thinks a woman who kisses a man is essentially consenting to sex.

So how does he explain this quote? He starts off by trying to explain the bit at the end about fantasy:

the quote comes from the politics of sex chapter of The Myth of Male Power. The point that “He might just be trying to become her fantasy” comes after a discussion of how romance novels and, in my 2014 edition, books like 50 Shades of Grey–books that are the female fantasy–are rarely titled, “He Stopped When I Said ‘No.'” The point is that women’s romance novels are still fantasizing the male-female dichotomy of attract/resist versus pursue/persist, and the law is increasingly punishing that as sexual harassment or date rape.

Beneath the weirdly academic verbiage – all that crap about “the male-female dichotomy of attract/resist” and so on – Farrell is advancing an idea that is really quite insidious: the notion that the popularity of rape fantasies in romance novels and in books like 50 Shades of Grey means that women actually want men to disregard their “noes.” Not only that: he seems to suggest that it’s unfair to prosecute men who rape women because, heck, for all they knew the woman is into that sort of thing.

As I pointed out in a followup question that he ignored,

I’m not sure how the fact that women read romance novels means that they don’t really mean no when they say no. That’s fantasy, not reality. I play video games in which people shoot at me; it doesn’t mean I want people to shoot me in real life.

He continues, his language growing more confusing and evasive:

the law is about dichotomy: guilty vs. innocent. male-female sexual attraction is about nuance. the court can’t begin to address the nuances of the male-female tango. the male role is punishable by law. women have not been resocialized to share the risks of rejection by expectation, only by option. the male role is being criminalized; the female increasingly has the option of calling his role courtship when she likes it, and taking him to court when she doesn’t.

The only real “tango” going on here is in Farrell’s language, in his attempts to so muddy the issue of consent that he manages to suggest that rapists are the victims of women’s “poor socialization” and caprice. In real life, the “male role” is not criminalized; men aren’t jailed for asking women out on dates, or going for a kiss at the end of the night; they’re being jailed for overriding a woman’s “noes” and raping them, though in actuality it is rare for a rapist to see the inside of a jail cell.

And that last bit – his complaint that women have “the option of calling his role courtship when she likes it, and taking him to court when she doesn’t” – seems to be little more than a deliberately confounding way of expressing his frustration that women are allowed to say no at all.

the answer is education about each sex’s fears and feelings–and that education being from early junior high school. we need to focus on making adolescence a better preparation for real love within the framework of respect for the differences in our hormones.

I confess I don’t quite know what he’s talking about here; as far as I can figure it, based on some of the things he’s written in the Myth of Male Power, the reference to “the differences in our hormones” is his way of suggesting that we should be more forgiving of boys when they make sexual “mistakes.” Boys will be boys!

the most dangerous thing that’s going on in some colleges is saying that a woman who says “yes” but is drunk can say in the morning that she was raped, because she was drunk and wasn’t responsible. this is like saying someone who drinks and gets in the car and has an accident is not responsible and shouldn’t get a DUI because she or he is drunk. we would never say the guy isn’t responsible for raping her because he’s drunk. these rules infantalize women and the female role, and criminalize men and the male role.

Well, no. They criminalize people who rape drunk people. A woman who is raped when she is drunk is not the equivalent of a drunk driver; she’s not the one doing the driving.

In his classic essay “Politics and the English Language,” George Orwell described how political writers turned to evasive euphemism, and degraded language generally, in an attempt to disguise the sheer terribleness of the things they were trying to express.

In our time, political speech and writing are largely the defense of the indefensible. Things like the continuance of British rule in India, the Russian purges and deportations, the dropping of the atom bombs on Japan, can indeed be defended, but only by arguments which are too brutal for most people to face, and which do not square with the professed aims of the political parties. Thus political language has to consist largely of euphemism, question-begging and sheer cloudy vagueness. Defenseless villages are bombarded from the air, the inhabitants driven out into the countryside, the cattle machine-gunned, the huts set on fire with incendiary bullets: this is called pacification. Millions of peasants are robbed of their farms and sent trudging along the roads with no more than they can carry: this is called transfer of population or rectification of frontiers. People are imprisoned for years without trial, or shot in the back of the neck or sent to die of scurvy in Arctic lumber camps: this is called elimination of unreliable elements.

It’s easy enough to see that this is exactly Farrell’s game. He can’t say “men shouldn’t be jailed for raping women who say no, because a lot of women have rape fantasies, and so maybe they’re into it” even though this seems to be the most straightforward translation of his basic message.

So instead he talks about how “romance novels are still fantasizing the male-female dichotomy of attract/resist versus pursue/persist”; he complains that “ the male role is being criminalized”; he talks vaguely about creating “the framework of respect for the differences in our hormones.”

But in the end, what he’s saying is worse than Elam’s rant about “conniving bitches” with neon signs over their heads. He just knows how to make the indefensible more palatable to a general audience.

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Marie
7 years ago

I’m not very educated on kink/kink critical stuff, so I’m going to try to stay out of this for the most part, but rubyrubyruby

“I didn’t call anyone names, call anyone stupid, tell anyone to shut up, fuck off, and die over their opinion. Such a reaction tells me there’s a lot of meat on that bone, BDSM and feminism do not go together.”

The reactions you are getting aren’t because people here are opposed to critiquing kink, they’re because you’re acting like a condescending jackass, like you know more about people who do DBMS and their lives than they do.

“-male doms — the absolute worst, truly terrible people, sociopathic
-female doms — not good
-male subs — unhealthy, need to get out of those relationships for their own well being
-female subs — unhealthy, have been manipulated into enjoying their own oppression and are facing some severe physiological problems because of that, are being exploited and are in very real danger”

Wow that’s … Really simplistic.


“So it’s utterly impossible to enjoy making your PARTNER happy??? My partner enjoys receiving pain, and I enjoy inflicting it BECAUSE SHE ENJOYS IT.”””

SO IT’S UTTERLY IMPOSSIBLE FOR ANIMAL HOARDERS TO KEEP AS MANY SICKLY, STARVING DOGS AND CATS AS THEY WANT IF THEY FUCKING ENJOY IT AND THE ANIMALS ARE FUCKING HAPPY IN A SHIT-COVERED HELL HOLE!?!?!??!”

I um reeaaaally don’t follow your logic.

“@emilygoddess
I have no idea how “abliesm” fits in here. Unless you’re implying that sadism/masochism are psychological illnesses. Maybe they are. Why do people view mental illness as such an insult? I thought this crowd was more liberal and wouldn’t stigmatize mental problems or anguish.”

Nice try. You are using psychopath/sadist in the context of ‘those horrible evil kinks tears who like pain’ your context is ableist. You have a problem with bdsm and seem to think that ppl who like bdsm are psychopaths.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
7 years ago

BTW, not that I think the “kinky people are sociopaths” twins are going to necessarily care about this, because if they were trying to do actual activism they would be approaching this in a completely different way, but here’s another thing that’s been left out of this discussion.

Being critical of the BSDM community is fine. Pointing out harmful patterns within that community is fine. Marinerachel did it earlier, and notice that she didn’t get shouted down. What’s not fine is pathologizing victims. Let’s assume for a moment that your view of people who do BSDM was correct, and that subs were motivated by prior abuse. If you think that someone has been abused in the past and is currently being revictimized, how do you interact with that person? Do you tell them that they’re “damaged”? Is that an effective way of connecting with people who you claim you want to help? Do you think that people who you approach in that way are going to feel comfortable asking you for help? Do you think they’re going to trust you, or feel safe with you? If you feel for whatever reason that it’s important to refer to doms as “sociopaths”, don’t you think it might be a good idea to make it really clear that you’re referring to them only, and not to the subs, and how well do you think that statements about kinky people/people who’re into BSDM being “sociopathic” communicate that position? Are you aware that you’re coming across as being contemptuous towards the subs as well as the doms? Because if you truly view those people as victims, then contempt is a pretty ugly emotion to be expressing towards them.

TL;DR – It’s not that BSDM is somehow above criticism. The problem is specifically with the way that you’re communicating that criticism, and the very obvious lack of empathy that you’re displaying towards the people who you’re framing as victims. If you really feel that someone is being victimized, then the way you’ve been interacting with those people here is deeply inappropriate and unlikely to result in them feeling like you’re a person who they could potentially reach out to for help if they wanted/needed it.

Retha
7 years ago

“The difference is that “people don’t believe because reasons” means “I am correct, it’s just that you don’t believe me”, whereas disagreement implies that either/both parties may be right (or wrong). ”

Disagreement or disbelief both imply either/ both parties could be wrong. And “people don’t believe because reasons” is not even my words – it is yours. I only discussed it because it shows your inability to make your point clearly. It does not prove my ego.

@Hellkell: I did not come here to tell people they are mentally ill. I came here for other reasons, found comments on a certain topic I have an opinion over, and opined. I already know that those already in such a lifestyle will not like what they say and may even twist my words, but I have other motives for saying it, like making outsiders sympathetic towards people who do get abused in relationships. (Why then, do I talk of BDSM in particular? Because abusive elements in BDSM – by which I do not mean all elements of it – is more often excused by “but they like it” than in other abusive relationships. And such dismissing of abuse sometimes influences people towards callousness towards other abuse victims too. For example, WTF claims that liking rape fantasies in books mean women want to be raped.)

“If you really feel that someone is being victimized, then the way you’ve been interacting with those people here is deeply inappropriate and unlikely to result in them feeling like you’re a person who they could potentially reach out to for help if they wanted/needed it.”

What way of interacting do you suggest? I get your point, but they are not likely to speak to people who really want to defend BDSM either? I heard from a BDSM blogger that the BDSM community often does not defend the victim and expose the abuser, as that would cause vanilla people to get a bad idea of BDSM. And the “but we like it” also don’t get BDSM people who are abused a good chance to get justice in court, if they reveal that they have allowed some BDSM, but were also abused.

Retha
7 years ago

“they are not likely to speak to people who really want to defend BDSM either? ” = “those who are victimized are not likely to speak to people who really want to defend BDSM either? “

Ally S
7 years ago

@RubyRubyRuby

@Ally S
Call me an armchair psychologist then, but I believe that people with a history of abuse or rape are drawn to BDSM because it lets them relive the abuse which they had no control over and were forced to endure, but in a way BDSM puts them in charge because subs “lead from the bottom.” They can (allegedly) relive victimization ‘safely’ but set the rules for dom/abuser to follow, and re-store those memories of abuse as something more palatable and less traumatic. I don’t think it’s a good thing.

BDSM for abuse survivors is about as helpful as meth for a schizophrenic. I have had counseling, I would suggest counseling for abuse survivors. I know, how elitist of me.

You can’t just talk over people and tell them why they feel the way they do. Just like anti-sex-worker radical feminists, you constantly treat people into kink as a monolithic group.
I myself have a lot of problems with certain parts of the kink community, such as male doms who think that pedophilia is just a harmless fetish. But I (and countless others in this thread, as they have eloquently demonstrated) can be kink-critical without being a patronizing, ableist asshole towards other people who have kinks.

The fascinating thing here is that you aren’t even being kind towards people like me, who actually do have kinks due to the effects of abuse. I don’t need to be told that one of my means of coping is like doing meth. (Do you realize how offensive that comparison is?) I know myself better than you do, Ruby.

And drop the disingenuous act, too. I never thought that seeking counseling is “elitist” (what the hell is that supposed to mean anyway?). I just said that silencing people with kinks is shitty and that treating people who have kinks due to the effects of abuse in my life.

hellkell
hellkell
7 years ago

I did not come here to tell people they are mentally ill.

But that’s exactly what you ended up doing, so yay for unintended consequences? You may want to re-read cassandra’s advice as an editor, if multiple people misunderstand you, the problem is yours.

You really should be going now. It’s hard to give flounce points when you keep feeding your herd of teal deer.

Ally S
7 years ago

@girlscientist

That’s not cowardly, but a perfectly valid defense mechanism. Lundy Bancroft, in “Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men” explains that abusers escalate when their victim defends themselves or protects their boundaries. That’s exactly what your father did when you tried to defend yourself: he escalated because his control over you was slipping. You’re not cowardly at all, you’re doing the best you can in an awful situation.

Thank you. I need to read that book sometime.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
7 years ago

See, this is a perfect example of why you’re getting the reactions you’re getting, Retha. First, the “no u!” stuff about communication skills? Nobody is buying it, and it makes you look childish. Secondly, if you now realize that the way you’re coming across isn’t very empathetic towards the people who you’re framing as victims, why are you not apologizing for that?

hellkell
hellkell
7 years ago

I came here for other reasons, found comments on a certain topic I have an opinion over, and opined.

You know what’s said about opinions, don’t you?

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
7 years ago

In all seriousness, I am very much in favor of the BSDM community being critiqued, because it has all kinds of issues, but the approach these two are taking is actively counterproductive.

hellkell
hellkell
7 years ago

Cassandra: Preach. The formal scenes have never been my thing and could use some criticism, but these two are running a master class in how not to do it.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
7 years ago

My cat is currently performing a more effective critique of whatever it is that she’s annoyed about by yowling as she settles down in front of her water bowl.

(Cat people – why does she do that? It’s so weird, whenever she’s about to drink she yowls as she sort of settles into place. I’ve tried putting the bowl at several different heights because I though that might be the issue, and changing bowls, but no luck, she still seems to find the whole drinking process offensive in some way.)

emilygoddess
emilygoddess
7 years ago

I have no idea how “abliesm” fits in here. Unless you’re implying that sadism/masochism are psychological illnesses.

No, that was you. You literally compared sadism with sociopathy.

Why do people view mental illness as such an insult? I thought this crowd was more liberal and wouldn’t stigmatize mental problems or anguish.

This blog is full of people with mental illnesses, including myself, so don’t even try this bullshit. No one is objecting to the idea of a person being mentally ill. We are objecting to your internet diagnoses and your conflation of bad behavior with mental illness. Also, don’t put ableism in quotes, it makes it sound like you don’t believe it’s a thing.

And way to ignore the substance of my comment: there are other kink-critical feminists here (again, including myself) who are telling you that your understanding of kink and its practitioners is incomplete and that you’re being kind of a jerk.

Ledasmom
Ledasmom
7 years ago

I believe the yowling is a lament that she is reduced to drinking out of anything that is not solid gold, encrusted with emeralds. After all, cat.
At the vet’s where I work, we had a cat in who, after using his litter box, scratched furiously at the towel in his cage trying to cover up. Then he looked at the box, saw no coverage, and started scratching furiously at the towel again – imperiling his water bowl in the process. Looked at box again. Tried to cover up again, and finally turned his back on the incomprehensible and offending litter box, pretending it wasn’t there.

emilygoddess
emilygoddess
7 years ago

@Cassandra, my cat does that too! I have no idea why, although ledasmom’s theory is plausible.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
7 years ago

It’s so weird! I figured it had to be something to do with either the bowl itself or how it was placed, so I’ve experimented, but nope, any time she drinks she grumbles beforehand.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
7 years ago

RE The towel scratching, my cat also sometimes uses her box, climbs out, and the scratches furiously at the kitchen floor next to it as if she’s trying to cover up, the problems with that being that a. it’s a solid floor and b. there’s nothing there to cover anyway.

Bina
Bina
7 years ago

Cassandra, maybe the yowling is a symptom that needs checking out. Unless, of course, she’s always done it, and the vet has found nothing wrong with her…in which case, quirk. Annoying, but quirky.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
7 years ago

She’s always done it. It’s not even annoying, really, just weird.

katz
7 years ago

Retha’ s score is down to -7/10. And she was doing so well! What a shame.

hellkell
hellkell
7 years ago

Biscuit yowls for absolutely no reason all the time. If I yowl back, he comes running to see what the big dumb cat wants.

katz
7 years ago

Although I’m tempted to award some audacity points for outright saying that she wasn’t going to respond to anyone giving a thoughtful, measured response.

Bina
Bina
7 years ago

I’ve had a few yowly cats myself. One actually yowled with her mouth full, causing me to laugh uncontrollably…and her to yowl again, something that sounded remarkably like “Shuddup!”

Lea
Lea
7 years ago

Retha,
Saying that people who enjoy kinky sex are dangerous, damaged people who think rape is OK is like saying that kids playing cops and robbers really want to rob banks and imprison their friends. It’s stupid as fuck. You are ignorant, ablist, insulting and wrong.

Lea
Lea
7 years ago

So it’s not possible that rape survivors attract predatory people who are terribly shitty like that?

WT ever loving F?

No, it is not possible that the victim is the one “attracting” sexual predators to them at all. How the fuck do you “attract” a sexual predator? Are we existing wrong again? Are you going to take us through the list of things we need to do so that other people don’t rape us?
Are we wearing the wrong things, walking the wrong places and enjoying the wrong sex?
Yuck.
No thanks.

Lea
Lea
7 years ago

Blockquotes fail.

dustydeste
dustydeste
7 years ago

Weelllll I just wanted to say that as far as I’m concerned, Ruby and Retha can go take a bath in a tub of Lego. I think there’s a lot of valid criticism that can be made about BDSM and kink in general, but UR DAMAGED GOODS WITH BRAIN PROBLEMS isn’t any of it. When you can look at it from a more sociological, rather than a pseudopsychological, perspective, then maybe we can talk.

Also just stop with the armchair diagnoses forever; it’s offensive to begin with, and beyond that, does a lot to make you look like a completely willfully ignorant asshole.

misery
misery
7 years ago

Please correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t the kink community a majority women & sexual minorities? I think that a lot of what would be considered kink for men in an alternate universe is just part of mainstream pornography and such in our world.

weirwoodtreehugger
7 years ago

I haven’t really wanted to jump into this fight, but do feel the need to address this particular quote:

SO IT’S UTTERLY IMPOSSIBLE FOR ANIMAL HOARDERS TO KEEP AS MANY SICKLY, STARVING DOGS AND CATS AS THEY WANT IF THEY FUCKING ENJOY IT AND THE ANIMALS ARE FUCKING HAPPY IN A SHIT-COVERED HELL HOLE!?!?!??

That’s a really flawed analogy. With BDSM it’s two (or sometimes more) consenting adults who have negotiated boundaries beforehand. When a hoarder keeps too many animals, the animals aren’t consenting to that situation. That’s a huge difference. That’s why it’s abusive to hoard animals even though the hoarder might have good intentions. That’s why as long as people stick to negotiated boundaries during BDSM it is not abuse.

Since the vast majority of commenters here are animal lovers, it’s a low blow to bring up animal abuse to try and score points.

weirwoodtreehugger
7 years ago

Darrow doesn’t yowl at his water dish, but he does stare at it with contempt for a couple of minutes before drinking. I have no idea why. It seems like he doesn’t like water and only drinks it because he needs to.

cloudiah
7 years ago

My furry bosses cry piteously for food (their own or whatever I’m eating) and then turn up their noses at it when it’s provided. They are the fussiest little fussbudgets I’ve ever catered to.

A lot of cats don’t like still water, and prefer to drink water that moves. I have this water bowl that looks like a small water cooler attached to a regular cat bowl. The kitties will jostle it until it “burps” and then drink the water that burbles out.

Right now, Buster is sitting in front of a painting and meowing at it. Weirdo.

cloudiah
7 years ago

I shouldn’t call Buster weird. Maybe she’s just an art critic.

LBT
LBT
7 years ago

RE: J.J

And LBT I read your post and while it was hard to read it helped me process some old memories and I hope a lot of others get to read it

Aw, I’m glad it was helpful! That’s why I forged through it, even though it took ages and required decompressing a bit. I’m also really glad that you like our comics! 😀 I love making them, and will be selling them in person in Atlanta and Kentucky cons if you’re in the US.

RE: Boogerghost

And LBT, thank you for sharing that. I admire you for overcoming that pitiful manipulative #$&%”#’”%$”# trying to make you feel like feeling manipulated was your own fault.

To quote tumblr, “I may not be able to unknow the monsters, but I can become the person who would’ve saved me when I was thirteen.”

RE: sparky

LBT: Can I just give you all the respect? I just, wow. Those letters are just sickening. To be able to post and analyze those, because they might help somebody else, is really awesome.

Thanks. I figure I might as well monkeywrench my horrorshow for the good of SOMEONE. It’s helpful for me to know that as horrible as it was, at least I can use it to protect others.

RE: cassandrakitty

Even if someone appears to be willing to have sex you still always have the option of saying “this situation feels too ethically muddy to me, so no, let’s not”.

Yeah! My husband has done that before… or just said he’s not comfortable doing a thing, even if it seems ethical and we’re both into it. He’s well within his rights to do so! I don’t want an uncomfortable hubby!

RE: katz

The whole “don’t feed the trolls” line is interesting because it’s a direct descendant of the old “ignore the bullies and they’ll leave you alone” line,

Yeah, it’s why I’ve always been uncomfortable with it.

LBT
LBT
7 years ago

Okay, time to take on Retha and RubyRubyRuby. *sighs, takes a deep drink*

I came from a family with multiple generations of incest and child molestation. I was lucky in that I made it to puberty before being raped, by someone outside the family, on a weekly basis for almost a year. I just made a blog post about this a few days ago; other commenters were talking to me about it.

You know something about my rapist? He was a romantic. He’d give me flowers. He’d write me love poetry. He would never, EVER do anything remotely kinky because everyone knew kink was BAD and he wasn’t a bad man! He was just a gentle, loving, romantic rapist.

I am also severely mentally ill. Disabled for it, in fact. I get tired very easily, and I sometimes have memory distortions, so I keep written records of a bunch of things.

I’ve been married for four years to a wonderful man who, unlike my rapist, actually gives a shit about my feelings. He is a loving man, the kindest I’ve ever met. He helped me recover from my rape shit by modeling for me what a good man is. He is my rock, he is my partner, and he is my best friend.

So you can imagine how enraged I get when some stranger on the Internet equates him with my rapist. You honestly seem to have no idea what grave insult you have just laid at the feet of the man who helped me RECOVER from my rape shit. The man who was patient, and kind, and always, ALWAYS emphasized that sex was on my terms.

I actually AM mentally damaged by the shit that happened to me. I get triggers and panic attacks and I still can not perform ANY sexual act the first time, no matter how tame or gentle, without crying afterward. I’ve got them everything pretty well under control, but make no mistake, that was work. Years of work.

You don’t know anything about me. I am a stranger to you. And yet you judge my sex life, just because sometimes we tie each other up, or roleplay fun things. You equate my happy, healthy, transcendant sex… with the shit my rapist did to me. You claim that I like it because I’m “damaged”> Don’t you dumbasses realize that kink is about the only sexual acts I’ve got that AREN’T tainted by my rapist? The one thing he WASN’T able to do to me?

You have spat in my face. Pissed on the name of my husband. And you claim to be helping me.

Wow, guys. Wow.

Also, I’m a gay trans guy. Am I enacting patriarchy, fighting patriarchy? Please. Do tell me exactly what thought experiment I’m performing for you. I aim to entertain.

Marie
7 years ago

@emilygoddess

“This blog is full of people with mental illnesses, including myself, so don’t even try this bullshit. No one is objecting to the idea of a person being mentally ill. We are objecting to your internet diagnoses and your conflation of bad behavior with mental illness. Also, don’t put ableism in quotes, it makes it sound like you don’t believe it’s a thing.”

Man i missed her putting ableism In Quotes. Beth -.-

Marie
7 years ago

*bleh

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
7 years ago

It seems that the autocorrect on Marie’s phone is cackling like a cartoon villain today.

LBT
LBT
7 years ago

And to continue on, you guys made me laugh with that “re-enacting abuse” remark. The laugh that makes my husband look at me askance.

Look, my rape was a long-term goal of grooming me into a teenage bride. If having sex that at all resembles my rape in any way is “re-enacting abuse,” I would not be able to:

– kiss anyone
– hug anyone
– make out with anyone
– hump anyone
– talk about marriage with anyone
– have anyone ever touch my ass in any way
– do hand jobs, on either end
– do blow jobs, on either end
– vaginal sex
– have sex in a bed
– have sex in a closet
– have sex outside
– have sex on the floor
– do anything with love poetry ever again

You get it? Dude freakin’ used in me in pretty much every way his limited imagination could encompass. I refuse to believe him or you that any sexual act that has anything to do with my rape means that I’m self-harming.

Seriously. You are the sort of “help” I would never want.

Marie
7 years ago

@cassandra

“It seems that the autocorrect on Marie’s phone is cackling like a cartoon villain today.”

It is tho :p

cloudiah
7 years ago

Hi, Marie! Nice to see you here–hope things are well with you!

katz
7 years ago

It seems that the autocorrect on Marie’s phone is cackling like a cartoon villain today.

Siri, what’s happened to you??

misery
misery
7 years ago

The whole “don’t feed the trolls” line is interesting because it’s a direct descendant of the old “ignore the bullies and they’ll leave you alone” line.

There really is some confusion about that though. I think originally trolling was a fishing term and that’s how it came to be used on the internet: trying to bait people into responding. But nowadays you’d associate trolls with the trolls under the bridge: scary monsters that operate under the cover of darkness (anonymity) to attack strangers.

“Don’t feed the trolls” is excellent advice if you’re dealing with people that try to start a Microsoft vs Google flame war, but it becomes problematic advice once people start to send death threats to woman that speak out on the internet.

misery
misery
7 years ago

women*

LBT
LBT
7 years ago

There are different kind of trolls, of course. I generally have a rule of not responding to trolls on things like tumblr just because having any sort of serious conversation there is like trying to write a novel entirely on sticky notes during a windy day. Other times, yeah, there are some trolls who I really don’t care to engage with. (For instance, a certain ex-friend who after our friendship dissolved said that I’d never gotten raped and just had daddy issues.) Some trolls just give me the “ABORT ABORT RUN AWAY” feeling, and it’s wise to follow that.

But a lot of trolls aren’t like that. Plenty of trolls count on not being acknowledged or called out so they can continue harassing people for YEARS. It’s foolish to claim a “one size fits all” solution when different people troll for different reasons.

Also, on this site, we MOCK misogyny, so I’d say the troll reactions are totally appropriate. Our motto is not “Misogyny, we ignore it and hope it dies on its own.”

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
7 years ago

You know, I’ve been told off by newbies for being too mean to people who to me appear to be either trolling or convinced that every woman in the world should volunteer to be their mommy multiple times, and every single time I’m all, so what you’re saying is that I should just let them carry on pissing all over truth, logic, and whoever happens to be around at the time? Sorry, nope, not doing that.

LBT
LBT
7 years ago

RE: cassandrakitty

Maybe you should try changing your handle is Macho McManlyBuns for a while, see if that gets them off your back for a while. I notice nobody’s been giving ME flack for such things, and I don’t think it’s that I’m so good-tempered.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
7 years ago

Maybe something that’s a normatively masculine version of my nym now, like CharlesRagingBull or some shit like that.

Marie
7 years ago

@cloudiah

Hi 😀

katz
7 years ago

Maybe you should try changing your handle is Macho McManlyBuns for a while, see if that gets them off your back for a while.

Some suggestions.