Men’s Rights Activists tend to be fairly blunt; when they express a noxious opinion – and oh so many of their opinions are noxious – they do it in the most obnoxious possible way. It isn’t enough for Paul Elam of A Voice for Men to blame victims of rape; he also has to call them “STUPID, CONNIVING BITCH[es]” wearing the equivalent of PLEASE RAPE ME neon sign[s] glowing above their empty little narcissistic heads.”
Warren Farrell is different. He takes a softer approach. He would never call a woman a bitch or a whore or a cunt. When he speaks, he manages to sound gentle and caring. He talks about the importance of listening to others. He sometimes even manages to give the impression that he cares as much about women as he does about men.
And yet his ideas are as noxious as Elam’s. He is as much of a victim blamer as any slur-spouting MGTOWer complaining about “stuck-up cunts” on an internet message board.
It’s just that he does his victim blaming with such carefully evasive language that he’s able to hide the noxiousness of his ideas – and to avoid taking responsibility for them when he’s challenged on them.
So it wasn’t surprising that a lot of the questions directed at him during his Reddit Ask Me Anything session the other day were attempts to pin down the real meaning of some of his more troubling pronouncements over the years.
A Redditor by the name of fiskitall asked Farrell about a quote from his Myth of Male Power that I also had hoped to see him clarify:
It is important that a woman’s “noes” be respected and her “yeses” be respected. And it is also important when her nonverbal “yeses” (tongues still touching) conflict with those verbal “noes” that the man not be put in jail for choosing the “yes” over the “no.” He might just be trying to become her fantasy.
Though worded with characteristic evasiveness, Farrell seems to be suggesting that men should not be prosecuted for raping women who explicitly tell them “no” if they think that these women are somehow giving them a “nonverbal” go-ahead. His “tongues still touching line” suggests specifically that he thinks a woman who kisses a man is essentially consenting to sex.
So how does he explain this quote? He starts off by trying to explain the bit at the end about fantasy:
the quote comes from the politics of sex chapter of The Myth of Male Power. The point that “He might just be trying to become her fantasy” comes after a discussion of how romance novels and, in my 2014 edition, books like 50 Shades of Grey–books that are the female fantasy–are rarely titled, “He Stopped When I Said ‘No.'” The point is that women’s romance novels are still fantasizing the male-female dichotomy of attract/resist versus pursue/persist, and the law is increasingly punishing that as sexual harassment or date rape.
Beneath the weirdly academic verbiage – all that crap about “the male-female dichotomy of attract/resist” and so on – Farrell is advancing an idea that is really quite insidious: the notion that the popularity of rape fantasies in romance novels and in books like 50 Shades of Grey means that women actually want men to disregard their “noes.” Not only that: he seems to suggest that it’s unfair to prosecute men who rape women because, heck, for all they knew the woman is into that sort of thing.
As I pointed out in a followup question that he ignored,
I’m not sure how the fact that women read romance novels means that they don’t really mean no when they say no. That’s fantasy, not reality. I play video games in which people shoot at me; it doesn’t mean I want people to shoot me in real life.
He continues, his language growing more confusing and evasive:
the law is about dichotomy: guilty vs. innocent. male-female sexual attraction is about nuance. the court can’t begin to address the nuances of the male-female tango. the male role is punishable by law. women have not been resocialized to share the risks of rejection by expectation, only by option. the male role is being criminalized; the female increasingly has the option of calling his role courtship when she likes it, and taking him to court when she doesn’t.
The only real “tango” going on here is in Farrell’s language, in his attempts to so muddy the issue of consent that he manages to suggest that rapists are the victims of women’s “poor socialization” and caprice. In real life, the “male role” is not criminalized; men aren’t jailed for asking women out on dates, or going for a kiss at the end of the night; they’re being jailed for overriding a woman’s “noes” and raping them, though in actuality it is rare for a rapist to see the inside of a jail cell.
And that last bit – his complaint that women have “the option of calling his role courtship when she likes it, and taking him to court when she doesn’t” – seems to be little more than a deliberately confounding way of expressing his frustration that women are allowed to say no at all.
the answer is education about each sex’s fears and feelings–and that education being from early junior high school. we need to focus on making adolescence a better preparation for real love within the framework of respect for the differences in our hormones.
I confess I don’t quite know what he’s talking about here; as far as I can figure it, based on some of the things he’s written in the Myth of Male Power, the reference to “the differences in our hormones” is his way of suggesting that we should be more forgiving of boys when they make sexual “mistakes.” Boys will be boys!
the most dangerous thing that’s going on in some colleges is saying that a woman who says “yes” but is drunk can say in the morning that she was raped, because she was drunk and wasn’t responsible. this is like saying someone who drinks and gets in the car and has an accident is not responsible and shouldn’t get a DUI because she or he is drunk. we would never say the guy isn’t responsible for raping her because he’s drunk. these rules infantalize women and the female role, and criminalize men and the male role.
Well, no. They criminalize people who rape drunk people. A woman who is raped when she is drunk is not the equivalent of a drunk driver; she’s not the one doing the driving.
In his classic essay “Politics and the English Language,” George Orwell described how political writers turned to evasive euphemism, and degraded language generally, in an attempt to disguise the sheer terribleness of the things they were trying to express.
In our time, political speech and writing are largely the defense of the indefensible. Things like the continuance of British rule in India, the Russian purges and deportations, the dropping of the atom bombs on Japan, can indeed be defended, but only by arguments which are too brutal for most people to face, and which do not square with the professed aims of the political parties. Thus political language has to consist largely of euphemism, question-begging and sheer cloudy vagueness. Defenseless villages are bombarded from the air, the inhabitants driven out into the countryside, the cattle machine-gunned, the huts set on fire with incendiary bullets: this is called pacification. Millions of peasants are robbed of their farms and sent trudging along the roads with no more than they can carry: this is called transfer of population or rectification of frontiers. People are imprisoned for years without trial, or shot in the back of the neck or sent to die of scurvy in Arctic lumber camps: this is called elimination of unreliable elements.
It’s easy enough to see that this is exactly Farrell’s game. He can’t say “men shouldn’t be jailed for raping women who say no, because a lot of women have rape fantasies, and so maybe they’re into it” even though this seems to be the most straightforward translation of his basic message.
So instead he talks about how “romance novels are still fantasizing the male-female dichotomy of attract/resist versus pursue/persist”; he complains that “ the male role is being criminalized”; he talks vaguely about creating “the framework of respect for the differences in our hormones.”
But in the end, what he’s saying is worse than Elam’s rant about “conniving bitches” with neon signs over their heads. He just knows how to make the indefensible more palatable to a general audience.
CN: TMI about Leum’s kinks
I’m somewhat sympathetic to Rethra in terms of hir squeamishness around BDSM. As someone whose kinks run towards the sadistic and who finds that disturbing, I’ve been repeatedly unimpressed by kinksters when I attempt to discuss how disturbing I find those kinks. Fantasizing about causing people pain runs contrary to my ethical values, and when I try to bring this up I’m usually told that it’s okay if the other person consents to it which… isn’t enough for me, because it doesn’t address the fact that, to me, having the desire to cause pain is itself distressing.
Holy fucking cow.
Hey, Retha? Nice to meet you. I’m totally into BDSM. It’s fucking ignorant of you to in the first place acknowledge BDSM is by far not always about inflicting or undergoing pain. Secondly, you’re a pretty stuck up douche if you’re going to pretend your limitations of what a person can or cannot find sexually arousing, is somehow normative and morally superior. Third, BDSM is not in itself patriarchal and does not promote a patriarchal system, as the power dynamic when it occurs, is 1) play and 2) quite often female-dominant. Fourth, a scene ALWAYS occurs between absolutely, undeniably enthusiastically consenting people.who have often far more extensively and openly discussed their mutual boundaries and preferences than “vanilla” partners have.
So yeah. How fucking dare you.
(little trigger warning for people who really can’t deal with some graphical shit about, albeit pretend, sexual violence)
Come on, have at me. I like rape play. I occasionally like my partner to as realistically as they can manage to act it out, push me down, slap me in the face, throw me to the floor, call me a dirty whore who deserves to be put in her place in the course of roughly fucking me into a state of pure bliss while I pretend to not want it.
With women, it’s pretty much the other way around. I enjoy my share of sadism during a scene both I and my partner agreed upon doing prior to the whole thing. Part of that enjoyment definitely comes from THEIR enjoyment, by the by. That has FUCK to do with if I actually enjoy to see people suffering or enjoy inflicting pain on people for real in everyday existence. HUGE hell no. Simplifying these things to “liking to see someone battered” is fucking wrong and completely ignores the aspects of power, (self-)control and trust to pain play occurring in a CONSENSUAL SETTING WHICH BOTH PARTIES FIND SEXUALLY AND EMOTIONALLY FULFILLING.
But hey, go ahead. Dare come in here and call me insane or damaged or “not a real feminist” and patronizing me with your sexual conduct policing.
The (male) partners who gladly for their AND my pleasure pretend to rape me, are all unbelievably compassionate individuals, by the way, who have always been absolutely as, if not more, sympathetic about my history as a rape survivor as my “normal” friends have been?
Rilian,
TW!
Fuck you, you dishonest piece of shit. A male friend of mine was raped while drunk. See, rapists are not really confused about what they are doing. If you are raping drunk people, you know what you are doing. If you are not a rapist, stop giving them cover. They need people to believe that they “accidentally” raped someone or that it didn’t count as rape because *insert stupid fucking douchey excuse* so that they can continue getting away with rape. The woman who raped him was a woman he trusted to get him home safe from a party. She knew what she was doing. He was 21st birthday drunk. Yes, men can be raped.
TW!
There is a skeevy dude in town who buys alcohol for underage girls. He meets them because he likes My Little Ponies and going to cons. He doesn’t drink. He’s a known predator that no one has been able to put away… yet. He knows he can get away with what he’s doing because of people like you. He chats up kids in the mall that are my kid’s age. He’s nearly my age. He is so well known to be a pederast that when my daughter is spotted in the same area of the mall as him, I get calls from concerned adults. Why hasn’t he been brought to justice? Because his victims know that people like you would defend him. They tell people they trust, but never try to press charges. One day, he’ll get caught. But by then, how many will he have raped? He thrives in the waters you muddy.
Retha,
http://graceellenshaw.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/whatever.gif
http://i.reactionclips.com/4znk4.gif
http://cdnpix.com/show/imgs/3b2bdffa3f06deabb8c5a4d640152a5e.jpg
http://24.media.tumblr.com/f844baf5475cac3c0e1c1600e12c446e/tumblr_mrs78ba5mE1s7tjwjo1_400.gif
(There’s a “not” missing in this sentence of my previous comment: “It’s fucking ignorant of you to in the first place *NOT* acknowledge BDSM is by far not always about inflicting or undergoing pain”)
Confused, huh? Troll harder.The compliment in your first paragraph on the conversation here made me feel like I needed to go take a shower, just FYI.
Lea
Dishonest!? What!?
Of course I agree that men can be raped!
People like me!? I honestly have no idea what you mean.
cassandrakitty, I am not trolling!
You’ll probably just mock me for this, but I am crying and drowning in snot now, thanks your and lea’s shitty mean responses.
I genuinely AM confused about this issue. I don’t think I have any way of knowing if someone will regret it later if they ask me to do something and I do it. Your comments haven’t helped me at all! You’re not obligated to help me. But you didn’t have to be a jerk either. You could have just ignored me.
To clarify, your whole first paragraph? That’s not the message that our culture sends about drinking and rape, it’s the message MRAs attempt to send about drinking and rape. The message that our culture sends about drinking and rape, unfortunately, is that when a woman drinks and there are men around, that’s consent to whatever a man might want to do to her. So either you’re being disingenuous or you are a visitor from another planet.
No, actually, if you repeat MRA tropes about women being considered blameless and men being considered responsible for their actions when drunk, tropes which blatantly do not reflect the way most cultures actually react to the issue of drinking and rape, then we can’t just ignore it, because those tropes are extremely harmful and are used to prop up rape culture.
A. Yes, you do, if you’re paying attention and looking for enthusiastic consent.
B. In the unlikely scenario that that did happen, the culture would back you, not the other person, and so would the legal system.
C. Which is why this whole “yes but what if someone regrets having sex later, which is totally a thing that happens and that men could get in trouble over” idea is such a nasty, sexist, rape-enabling cultural myth, and why I don’t appreciate seeing it repeated here.
cassandrakitty, that is the message I got, and the only time I read MRA stuff is when I come to this blog. I mean, I *also* hear the message that if a woman is drunk around men, that’s consent, or what did she expect. But I’m talking about the message I got from lectures at school and stuff that were meant to *counter* that.
Are you seriously expecting me to walk you through this in even more detail after you just pulled a “you have made me cry, you awful person!”? I’m not your mom, and I’ve already explained why what you wrote was a problem.
cassandrakitty
“A. Yes, you do, if you’re paying attention and looking for enthusiastic consent.”
What about the person who was chasing me and shouting “hit me!”?
The culture didn’t back me. I got in trouble for that.
If people really are giving the message above to kids, then that would be a data point in favor of presenting a more nuanced view of this issue rather than the “all sex when people have been drinking is rape, end of conversation” approach.
cassandrakitty
“Are you seriously expecting me to walk you through this in even more detail after you just pulled a “you have made me cry, you awful person!”? I’m not your mom, and I’ve already explained why what you wrote was a problem.”
You hadn’t already explained when I made that comment.
And, I don’t know, I guess I thought maybe you cared about avoiding hurting people.
Yep, kids hitting each other in 4th grade is just like drunk people hooking up at a party.
Someone else want to deal with this? Because I am all out of patient handholding juice for now.
cassandrakitty
“If people really are giving the message above to kids, then that would be a data point in favor of presenting a more nuanced view of this issue rather than the “all sex when people have been drinking is rape, end of conversation” approach.”
That’s exactly what I was thinking and why I LIKED what people in the comments here were saying. I’d never heard ANYTHING in between, it was always either “you chose to get drunk so you consented” or “she was drunk, so it was rape” (and they never say “he was drunk so it was rape” so it’s sexist, and they rarely acknowledge that men can be raped at all, which is terrible for men who actually are raped). I was glad to see people discussing it for real, and I thought I could actually get some input so I can act better / be a better person in the future.
How old are you Rilian? We’re really supposed to explain why your childish behaviour as a 9 year old is not comparable to adult sex & consent? I call bullshit!
cassandrakitty
“Yep, kids hitting each other in 4th grade is just like drunk people hooking up at a party.”
I didn’t say it was the same. And anyway, it wasn’t kids hitting each other. It was her chasing me and shouting “hit me, hit me”, and me hitting her in the hopes that she would then leave me alone. I guess I could have run out of the room and looked for a teacher. But I didn’t think of that.
If only we had more people like George Orwell and less people like Warren Farrell.
Does rolling my eyes count?
We’re in the business of making you a better person.
^We’re NOT
titianblue:
my childish behaviour? Someone was chasing me and shouting at me, and I’m the childish one? Do you think what I did was really wrong? That’s not a rhetorical question. Should she have gotten in trouble too? She didn’t.
And I’m not saying it’s comparable. I’m saying it’s related to the whole issue of consent, not just consent to sex.
I’m confused, when did Manboobz become Scarleteen Part 2?
hellkell
“We’re [not] in the business of making you a better person.”
Why not? What’s the point of discussing such things if not to get and give more input so that you and others can do better in the future? OK, catharsis is also a reason to discuss things. But I wanted input so I could do better. If you’re not willing to have such a discussion with me, why respond at all?