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Warren Farrell on Date Rape: Defending the Indefensible

George Orwell, meet Warren Farrell
George Orwell, meet Warren Farrell

Men’s Rights Activists tend to be fairly blunt; when they express a noxious opinion – and oh so many of their opinions are noxious – they do it in the most obnoxious possible way. It isn’t enough for Paul Elam of A Voice for Men to blame victims of rape; he also has to call them “STUPID, CONNIVING BITCH[es]” wearing the equivalent of PLEASE RAPE ME neon sign[s] glowing above their empty little narcissistic heads.”

Warren Farrell is different. He takes a softer approach. He would never call a woman a bitch or a whore or a cunt. When he speaks, he manages to sound gentle and caring. He talks about the importance of listening to others. He sometimes even manages to give the impression that he cares as much about women as he does about men.

And yet his ideas are as noxious as Elam’s. He is as much of a victim blamer as any slur-spouting MGTOWer complaining about “stuck-up cunts” on an internet message board.

It’s just that he does his victim blaming with such carefully evasive language that he’s able to hide the noxiousness of his ideas – and to avoid taking responsibility for them when he’s challenged on them.

So it wasn’t surprising that a lot of the questions directed at him during his Reddit Ask Me Anything session the other day were attempts to pin down the real meaning of some of his more troubling pronouncements over the years.

A Redditor by the name of fiskitall asked Farrell about a quote from his Myth of Male Power that I also had hoped to see him clarify:

It is important that a woman’s “noes” be respected and her “yeses” be respected. And it is also important when her nonverbal “yeses” (tongues still touching) conflict with those verbal “noes” that the man not be put in jail for choosing the “yes” over the “no.” He might just be trying to become her fantasy.

Though worded with characteristic evasiveness, Farrell seems to be suggesting that men should not be prosecuted for raping women who explicitly tell them “no” if they think that these women are somehow giving them a “nonverbal” go-ahead. His “tongues still touching line” suggests specifically that he thinks a woman who kisses a man is essentially consenting to sex.

So how does he explain this quote? He starts off by trying to explain the bit at the end about fantasy:

the quote comes from the politics of sex chapter of The Myth of Male Power. The point that “He might just be trying to become her fantasy” comes after a discussion of how romance novels and, in my 2014 edition, books like 50 Shades of Grey–books that are the female fantasy–are rarely titled, “He Stopped When I Said ‘No.'” The point is that women’s romance novels are still fantasizing the male-female dichotomy of attract/resist versus pursue/persist, and the law is increasingly punishing that as sexual harassment or date rape.

Beneath the weirdly academic verbiage – all that crap about “the male-female dichotomy of attract/resist” and so on – Farrell is advancing an idea that is really quite insidious: the notion that the popularity of rape fantasies in romance novels and in books like 50 Shades of Grey means that women actually want men to disregard their “noes.” Not only that: he seems to suggest that it’s unfair to prosecute men who rape women because, heck, for all they knew the woman is into that sort of thing.

As I pointed out in a followup question that he ignored,

I’m not sure how the fact that women read romance novels means that they don’t really mean no when they say no. That’s fantasy, not reality. I play video games in which people shoot at me; it doesn’t mean I want people to shoot me in real life.

He continues, his language growing more confusing and evasive:

the law is about dichotomy: guilty vs. innocent. male-female sexual attraction is about nuance. the court can’t begin to address the nuances of the male-female tango. the male role is punishable by law. women have not been resocialized to share the risks of rejection by expectation, only by option. the male role is being criminalized; the female increasingly has the option of calling his role courtship when she likes it, and taking him to court when she doesn’t.

The only real “tango” going on here is in Farrell’s language, in his attempts to so muddy the issue of consent that he manages to suggest that rapists are the victims of women’s “poor socialization” and caprice. In real life, the “male role” is not criminalized; men aren’t jailed for asking women out on dates, or going for a kiss at the end of the night; they’re being jailed for overriding a woman’s “noes” and raping them, though in actuality it is rare for a rapist to see the inside of a jail cell.

And that last bit – his complaint that women have “the option of calling his role courtship when she likes it, and taking him to court when she doesn’t” – seems to be little more than a deliberately confounding way of expressing his frustration that women are allowed to say no at all.

the answer is education about each sex’s fears and feelings–and that education being from early junior high school. we need to focus on making adolescence a better preparation for real love within the framework of respect for the differences in our hormones.

I confess I don’t quite know what he’s talking about here; as far as I can figure it, based on some of the things he’s written in the Myth of Male Power, the reference to “the differences in our hormones” is his way of suggesting that we should be more forgiving of boys when they make sexual “mistakes.” Boys will be boys!

the most dangerous thing that’s going on in some colleges is saying that a woman who says “yes” but is drunk can say in the morning that she was raped, because she was drunk and wasn’t responsible. this is like saying someone who drinks and gets in the car and has an accident is not responsible and shouldn’t get a DUI because she or he is drunk. we would never say the guy isn’t responsible for raping her because he’s drunk. these rules infantalize women and the female role, and criminalize men and the male role.

Well, no. They criminalize people who rape drunk people. A woman who is raped when she is drunk is not the equivalent of a drunk driver; she’s not the one doing the driving.

In his classic essay “Politics and the English Language,” George Orwell described how political writers turned to evasive euphemism, and degraded language generally, in an attempt to disguise the sheer terribleness of the things they were trying to express.

In our time, political speech and writing are largely the defense of the indefensible. Things like the continuance of British rule in India, the Russian purges and deportations, the dropping of the atom bombs on Japan, can indeed be defended, but only by arguments which are too brutal for most people to face, and which do not square with the professed aims of the political parties. Thus political language has to consist largely of euphemism, question-begging and sheer cloudy vagueness. Defenseless villages are bombarded from the air, the inhabitants driven out into the countryside, the cattle machine-gunned, the huts set on fire with incendiary bullets: this is called pacification. Millions of peasants are robbed of their farms and sent trudging along the roads with no more than they can carry: this is called transfer of population or rectification of frontiers. People are imprisoned for years without trial, or shot in the back of the neck or sent to die of scurvy in Arctic lumber camps: this is called elimination of unreliable elements.

It’s easy enough to see that this is exactly Farrell’s game. He can’t say “men shouldn’t be jailed for raping women who say no, because a lot of women have rape fantasies, and so maybe they’re into it” even though this seems to be the most straightforward translation of his basic message.

So instead he talks about how “romance novels are still fantasizing the male-female dichotomy of attract/resist versus pursue/persist”; he complains that “ the male role is being criminalized”; he talks vaguely about creating “the framework of respect for the differences in our hormones.”

But in the end, what he’s saying is worse than Elam’s rant about “conniving bitches” with neon signs over their heads. He just knows how to make the indefensible more palatable to a general audience.

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Retha
10 years ago

“drunk enough to know I want to do this, not so drunk you should feel guilty about taking advantage” – Good one!

This kind of conversation about consent is important.

libarbarian
libarbarian
10 years ago

@cloudiah

Yeah. I saw that right after I commented. I agree with tinyorc completely.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
10 years ago

They say things like: “I like being forced to do things I dislike…

I’m going to need you to hand over that straw kinkster for recycling, it’s clearly seen better days.

titianblue
titianblue
10 years ago

@Retha, Ruby is that you?

Oh, and is this the old “hey, prison rape is a good thing” Ruby? In which case I repeat – fuck off.

sparky
sparky
10 years ago

Y’know, I really prefer not to call into question other people’s mental states just because those people are into stuff I’m not into. I also really prefer not to double-guess people when they say they have perfectly wonderful, consensual BDSM experiences. Doing so strikes me as very patronizing and obnoxious.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
10 years ago

My favorite part was how Retha opened by acknowledging that not all BSDM relationships are male dom/female sub, and then went right back to arguing against it using male dom/female sub examples. Almost MRM-worthy use of logic there.

katz
10 years ago

Argument by outrage is not nearly as logical as pointing out, almost like you did, that looking at (and enjoying!) a beaten and battered person (I believe this applies to a beaten or battered man or woman) and feeling pleasure is a sign of sociopathy, Now, they could argue that enjoying to beat and insult a partner is normal and healthy, but it is up to your opposition to provide evidence for said view. Merely insisting it does not make it so.

Insisting only makes it so if you’re insisting something I agree with!

Binjabreel
10 years ago

@Retha:
You’re a fucking judgemental idiot, and it’s clear from your comments that you have exactly zero idea what the pleasure is that people get from BDSM.

Liking pain isn’t a mental disorder, it’s just enjoying a level of stimulation that the average person finds too intense.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
10 years ago

Oh, hey, and there’s another truck-sized hole in the argument. What about people who’re into kinks that are about control that don’t involve much/any physical pain? I guess you could call, say, orgasm denial “pain” if you reached energetically enough, but do you really want to sound like a frat boy whining about blue balls?

Fibinachi
Fibinachi
10 years ago

@Retha: Ruby was and is incoherent, offensive and wrong. You are just a little misinformed and patronizing. So, kudos.

Here’s the thing, though: 1) pleasure from destruction = sign of psycopathy, not sociopathy. 2) useless diagnosis not relevant. 3) don’t snidely hint people’s relationships are all wrong when multiple people inform thats not the case. 4) “beaten and battered” is not even close to most bdsm / kink. 5) if people like being forced to do stuff they dislike or feel safe feeling fear or hang out with peaceful people who hurt… That’s not a contradiction which invalidates anything but an information about their emotional states. 6) how dare you :v 7) please do some bare basics reading. 8) “not all are so heres generalization about most” = silly

sparky
sparky
10 years ago

LBT: Can I just give you all the respect? I just, wow. Those letters are just sickening. To be able to post and analyze those, because they might help somebody else, is really awesome.

Just, wow.

Ally S
10 years ago

RubyRubyRuby, it’s possible to be kink-critical (or kink-skeptical or interested in discussing the intersection of kink and patriarchy) without being as dismissive, rude and borderline ableist as you were.

This, although I’d personally call that fully ableist, not just borderline.

[CN: TMI stuff, abuse]

I admit that I have some kinks, and I’m convinced that they’re strongly tied to my history of abuse. But being like that doesn’t give me the license to talk over other people with kinks and armchair-diagnose them. I’m sick of seeing this kind of argument on feminist blogs.

moldybrehd
10 years ago

I think @Ruby & @Retha are purposefully mixing up kinksters with women who are brought into the scene by a partner who’s abusive and manipulated them into trying it out. These are not the same thing!!!!

Kinksters choose – it’s that enthusiastic, *informed* consent thing. Note – I prefer informed consent when talking about consent in the BDSM world. It’s really important that everyone knows exactly will be happening (especially between new partners).

moldybrehd
10 years ago

@tinyorc – thank you for you posts here!

Consent while drunk is possible, and even pleasurable, and not all that hard to acquire (the consent, not the sex – your ability to acquire sex will vary, lol). Drunk doesn’t automatically equal incapacitated or blacked out.

When I was in a relationship, before I even had my first drink, if I was in the mood I would express to my partner that I wanted to get buzzed and eventually have sex. If they were agreeable, we’d move on with the evening. If not, not. And of course, either one of us could change our minds and have it respected.

Rilian
Rilian
10 years ago

I like what you people are saying about consent and drinking. It makes way more sense than what I’ve been told previously (by school and by law & order) which is that even if a woman enthusiastically consents, it’s cancelled out if she had even a sip of alcohol because then clearly she didn’t know what she was doing, she wasn’t able to make an actual informed decision because her brain wasn’t working. But if the man who had sex with her had also had a sip of alcohol, they don’t say that he was raped just because of that sip, they don’t say that his brain wasn’t working — they say it was his choice to take that sip and therefore he’s responsible for whatever he did when he didn’t know what he was doing. And if the man had had a sip and the woman hadn’t, no one seems to care about that. So a man’s consent still counts, but a woman’s doesn’t. That was the message I got, and of course it doesn’t make any sense. So I don’t think it’s going to be any help. It might make some people ignore the actual signs that the person they want to have sex with is more drunk than they are and too drunk to really know what they’re doing.

What if they both really are too drunk to know what they’re doing? Then how are they supposed to know that they shouldn’t have sex? (I don’t have personal experience with getting drunk so I really don’t know how that works.)

What I’ve seen on tv is that if someone is drunk and begging you for sex, you’re supposed to keep saying no. So I guess that’s the common wisdom? A drunkish person once sort of pressured me in to sex … I didn’t particularly want to have sex, but I wouldn’t have minded it since I liked him. I made him walk on a line and touch his nose and say the alphabet backwards, but I don’t know if those things are really any indication of sobriety. He kept saying, “I’m not really drunk, so it’s ok.” So I did it, and then the next day he called me and said that he had been drunk and it was a mistake. He didn’t call the cops on me or anything though, but I felt bad about it…. So I guess refusing if the other person has had anything to drink at all is a good practice. And a person doesn’t have to be drunk to keep asking for something and then regret it after you finally acquiesce. Once, a person was chasing me around the room shouting “hit me! hit me!” so I finally hit her, hoping that would get her to leave me alone, and she dropped to the floor crying and I got in trouble (this was in 4th grade). That situation is kind of different because I was also defending myself, but but but I confused am.

@Fibinaci I’ve read that sociopathy is a synonym of psychopathy, that sociopathy is a new term for the same old thing.

Retha
10 years ago

@Titianblue: I would never call rape a good thing, and never commented anywhere under the name Ruby. The manospheres attitute on rape is pretty much why I like to see them mocked! (Thanks, Fibinachi, for realizing that)
I am so anti-rape that I even find scenes where “no” don’t count, because the participants has another safe word, too rape-y.
And so-called “erotic” “he starts groping her, she protests, he continues” scenes in fiction disgust me so much that I find myself reluctant to read any erotic literature – it is too likely to contain that.
People who enjoy playing at rape and kidnapping in their scenes love rape so much that I am unsure if they are safe people. Even if they are not rapists themselves, I wonder if they will have as much sympathy with a raped friend as I do? Or would a rape story from a friend just aid them in their fantasies?
———-
I realize that everybody here will only mis-characterize what I said as I did not say something they liked.
For example, they will say I used “male-female examples” when only one of my examples shows two genders, and in that case it was actually told to me by a male dom and female sub on the Internet. Or act as if I called liking pain (the recieving end, from the “intense stimulation” part of the comment that acted that way) a mental disorder. – If I said anything at all about a reaction to pain being a disorder, I said RubyRubyRuby’s comment on liking to see someone battered (the giving pain part, not the recieving) have not been contradicted yet.

@Fibinachi 1 and 2) Many academic sources use both the words psycopathy and sociopathy for the same people. But I stand corrected in the sense that they are indeed dissimilar, and it is psychopaths who are prone to enjoying violence. 3) People who are sober understand drunkenness better than the drunk, and awake people can discuss sleep better than the sleeping. Nothing I say about BDSM is as self-contradictory as what BDSM people say of it. 4) “Beaten” is indeed something that happen in BDSM – people are whipped, slapped, caned, etc. in it. I never said all/ most BDSM involve beatings, so I said nothing untrue there. 5) Contradictions obviously make something untrue. 6) Argument from outrage. 7) This statement implies I am wrong, without giving a shred of evidence. Every one of the things I said come from some more-than-basic reading on the topic. 8) I made statements on what I saw, after saying that some things someone else said was not properly argued against. If you see that as generalization, it is your eyes that see it.
But then, I have talked with enough BDSM defenders to know that many of them will read things I did not say into these words. Those I met cannot be rational about BDSM, but I have seen many rationally discuss other topics.

But I bow out now, as I think the drunkenness and consent topic is too important to miss.

BreakfastMan
BreakfastMan
10 years ago

@Retha: Just because one has certain fantasies that they like to play out doesn’t mean that they are totally without sympathy or empathy, or that they can’t separate fantasy from reality. This is basically the same argument that Farrell is using above.

Retha
10 years ago

“Contradictions obviously make something untrue.” – I am wrong. It should be “Contradictions obviously mean something is untrue.”

titianblue
titianblue
10 years ago

But then, I have talked with enough BDSM defenders to know that many of them will read things I did not say into these words. Those I met cannot be rational about BDSM, but I have seen many rationally discuss other topics.

Nice passive-aggressive provocation, there, Retha. You do realise that telling someone that the thing that do which they and the people they do it with both enjoy and find pleasure and which harms noone is in fact wrong and mentally ill might make upset that someone, right? Because you’ve just told them they are mentally ill and evil?

hellkell
hellkell
10 years ago

People who enjoy playing at rape and kidnapping in their scenes love rape so much that I am unsure if they are safe people. Even if they are not rapists themselves, I wonder if they will have as much sympathy with a raped friend as I do? Or would a rape story from a friend just aid them in their fantasies?

Aren’t you just the bestest friend ever? What the fuck is this and what the fuck is wrong with you?

hellkell
hellkell
10 years ago

It’s like a tone troll wrapped in a scold, covered by bullshit.

Z
Z
10 years ago

I think Retha’s problem is conflating the conscious, self-identified BDSM practicioners that are aware of consent issues with some of the attitudes common in mainstream porn. And it all goes downhill from here.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
10 years ago

I have to say, I’m not really getting a “deeply empathic person who I’d want to share personal experiences like rape with” vibe from Retha right now. I mean, would she interrogate you? Question whether the way you perceive what happened to you was correct? Tell you that she was better qualified to understand what had happened than you were because hey, she talked to some people on the internet once?

manhattansbalcony
10 years ago

The most insidious lie told by MRAs to the general public is that, thanks to feminists, it’s now possible to accidentally rape somebody. That even if you have enthusiastic, cooperating consent, even if it was her idea to have sex, if she decides later on (even months or years later) that she wouldn’t have slept with you sober, you’re a rapist. You can’t really get much traction with most men claiming that no doesn’t really mean no (See Louis C.K.’s bit about this), but you can scare the hell out of men claiming that yes may not mean yes.

sparky
sparky
10 years ago

Retha: But you haven’t pointed out any actual contradictions.

Here is what Fibinachi actually said:

if people like being forced to do stuff they dislike or feel safe feeling fear or hang out with peaceful people who hurt… That’s not a contradiction which invalidates anything but an information about their emotional states.

Invalidating other people’s experiences is exactly what you are doing. You are taking something that you appear to have absolutely no knowledge of at all and applying a blanket condemnation of it as violent and those who enjoy those things as mentally ill and morally corrupt. (And if that isn’t an argument from outrage your using there, I don’t know what is).

Seriously, if someone likes to feel fear and feels safe with a person who will, in a consensual and enjoyable-for-all-involved experience, will give them that, then nothing about that scenario indicates that anyone involved is a sociopath, is mentally ill, or is morally reprehensible.

Seriously, you also appear to have no idea what a “sociopath” is. Neither “sociopath” or “psychopath” are recognized diagnostic terms, but rather appear to be used mostly in criminal justice system. The diagnosis is Anti-social Personality Disorder, and here is a discussion of it:


http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/antisocial-personality-disorder/basics/symptoms/con-20027920

You’ll notice that nowhere in there does “engaging in consensual kink activities” occur.

You also not a psychiatrist, and you are diagnosing people based on what you read off the Internet. Stop that

As for the moral implications, well, you’re basically sayi g that consensual activities are wrong because you find them oogy. Stop that, too.

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