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Warren Farrell on Date Rape: Defending the Indefensible

George Orwell, meet Warren Farrell
George Orwell, meet Warren Farrell

Men’s Rights Activists tend to be fairly blunt; when they express a noxious opinion – and oh so many of their opinions are noxious – they do it in the most obnoxious possible way. It isn’t enough for Paul Elam of A Voice for Men to blame victims of rape; he also has to call them “STUPID, CONNIVING BITCH[es]” wearing the equivalent of PLEASE RAPE ME neon sign[s] glowing above their empty little narcissistic heads.”

Warren Farrell is different. He takes a softer approach. He would never call a woman a bitch or a whore or a cunt. When he speaks, he manages to sound gentle and caring. He talks about the importance of listening to others. He sometimes even manages to give the impression that he cares as much about women as he does about men.

And yet his ideas are as noxious as Elam’s. He is as much of a victim blamer as any slur-spouting MGTOWer complaining about “stuck-up cunts” on an internet message board.

It’s just that he does his victim blaming with such carefully evasive language that he’s able to hide the noxiousness of his ideas – and to avoid taking responsibility for them when he’s challenged on them.

So it wasn’t surprising that a lot of the questions directed at him during his Reddit Ask Me Anything session the other day were attempts to pin down the real meaning of some of his more troubling pronouncements over the years.

A Redditor by the name of fiskitall asked Farrell about a quote from his Myth of Male Power that I also had hoped to see him clarify:

It is important that a woman’s “noes” be respected and her “yeses” be respected. And it is also important when her nonverbal “yeses” (tongues still touching) conflict with those verbal “noes” that the man not be put in jail for choosing the “yes” over the “no.” He might just be trying to become her fantasy.

Though worded with characteristic evasiveness, Farrell seems to be suggesting that men should not be prosecuted for raping women who explicitly tell them “no” if they think that these women are somehow giving them a “nonverbal” go-ahead. His “tongues still touching line” suggests specifically that he thinks a woman who kisses a man is essentially consenting to sex.

So how does he explain this quote? He starts off by trying to explain the bit at the end about fantasy:

the quote comes from the politics of sex chapter of The Myth of Male Power. The point that “He might just be trying to become her fantasy” comes after a discussion of how romance novels and, in my 2014 edition, books like 50 Shades of Grey–books that are the female fantasy–are rarely titled, “He Stopped When I Said ‘No.'” The point is that women’s romance novels are still fantasizing the male-female dichotomy of attract/resist versus pursue/persist, and the law is increasingly punishing that as sexual harassment or date rape.

Beneath the weirdly academic verbiage – all that crap about “the male-female dichotomy of attract/resist” and so on – Farrell is advancing an idea that is really quite insidious: the notion that the popularity of rape fantasies in romance novels and in books like 50 Shades of Grey means that women actually want men to disregard their “noes.” Not only that: he seems to suggest that it’s unfair to prosecute men who rape women because, heck, for all they knew the woman is into that sort of thing.

As I pointed out in a followup question that he ignored,

I’m not sure how the fact that women read romance novels means that they don’t really mean no when they say no. That’s fantasy, not reality. I play video games in which people shoot at me; it doesn’t mean I want people to shoot me in real life.

He continues, his language growing more confusing and evasive:

the law is about dichotomy: guilty vs. innocent. male-female sexual attraction is about nuance. the court can’t begin to address the nuances of the male-female tango. the male role is punishable by law. women have not been resocialized to share the risks of rejection by expectation, only by option. the male role is being criminalized; the female increasingly has the option of calling his role courtship when she likes it, and taking him to court when she doesn’t.

The only real “tango” going on here is in Farrell’s language, in his attempts to so muddy the issue of consent that he manages to suggest that rapists are the victims of women’s “poor socialization” and caprice. In real life, the “male role” is not criminalized; men aren’t jailed for asking women out on dates, or going for a kiss at the end of the night; they’re being jailed for overriding a woman’s “noes” and raping them, though in actuality it is rare for a rapist to see the inside of a jail cell.

And that last bit – his complaint that women have “the option of calling his role courtship when she likes it, and taking him to court when she doesn’t” – seems to be little more than a deliberately confounding way of expressing his frustration that women are allowed to say no at all.

the answer is education about each sex’s fears and feelings–and that education being from early junior high school. we need to focus on making adolescence a better preparation for real love within the framework of respect for the differences in our hormones.

I confess I don’t quite know what he’s talking about here; as far as I can figure it, based on some of the things he’s written in the Myth of Male Power, the reference to “the differences in our hormones” is his way of suggesting that we should be more forgiving of boys when they make sexual “mistakes.” Boys will be boys!

the most dangerous thing that’s going on in some colleges is saying that a woman who says “yes” but is drunk can say in the morning that she was raped, because she was drunk and wasn’t responsible. this is like saying someone who drinks and gets in the car and has an accident is not responsible and shouldn’t get a DUI because she or he is drunk. we would never say the guy isn’t responsible for raping her because he’s drunk. these rules infantalize women and the female role, and criminalize men and the male role.

Well, no. They criminalize people who rape drunk people. A woman who is raped when she is drunk is not the equivalent of a drunk driver; she’s not the one doing the driving.

In his classic essay “Politics and the English Language,” George Orwell described how political writers turned to evasive euphemism, and degraded language generally, in an attempt to disguise the sheer terribleness of the things they were trying to express.

In our time, political speech and writing are largely the defense of the indefensible. Things like the continuance of British rule in India, the Russian purges and deportations, the dropping of the atom bombs on Japan, can indeed be defended, but only by arguments which are too brutal for most people to face, and which do not square with the professed aims of the political parties. Thus political language has to consist largely of euphemism, question-begging and sheer cloudy vagueness. Defenseless villages are bombarded from the air, the inhabitants driven out into the countryside, the cattle machine-gunned, the huts set on fire with incendiary bullets: this is called pacification. Millions of peasants are robbed of their farms and sent trudging along the roads with no more than they can carry: this is called transfer of population or rectification of frontiers. People are imprisoned for years without trial, or shot in the back of the neck or sent to die of scurvy in Arctic lumber camps: this is called elimination of unreliable elements.

It’s easy enough to see that this is exactly Farrell’s game. He can’t say “men shouldn’t be jailed for raping women who say no, because a lot of women have rape fantasies, and so maybe they’re into it” even though this seems to be the most straightforward translation of his basic message.

So instead he talks about how “romance novels are still fantasizing the male-female dichotomy of attract/resist versus pursue/persist”; he complains that “ the male role is being criminalized”; he talks vaguely about creating “the framework of respect for the differences in our hormones.”

But in the end, what he’s saying is worse than Elam’s rant about “conniving bitches” with neon signs over their heads. He just knows how to make the indefensible more palatable to a general audience.

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hellkell
hellkell
10 years ago

Taylor: have you read any of the comments before yours?

Lea
Lea
10 years ago

Ruby,
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m8lrahRrKo1rcmkfpo1_500.gif

As for the rape apologia: How creepy is it that Farrell is telling men that if a woman kisses them, she’s fair game. She isn’t allowed her own boundaries. There is no way that she could just want to make out and watch a movie. As if a man does not have the choice to not keep locking lips if he doesn’t like petting without achieving orgasm. I know someone who really doesn’t like make out sessions that are not foreplay. You know how my friend handles that? She says as much to the ladies who want to make out with her. She is not required to make out with them. We can all have clear boundaries. It can be awkward and it can make people feel vulnerable to disclose their likes and dislikes with prospective partners. So? You’d rather rape someone than feel vulnerable or be rejected? That’s weak.That’s an entitled, chickshit coward, abuser making flimsy excuses for hurting other people horribly.

It is the easiest thing in the world to just not put your penis in people that you don’t feel comfortable talking to about how and when you’d like to put your penis in them. If your fee-fees get hurt or you have to keep it in your pants, you’ll live. That’s how grown people have sex. If you can’t learn to speak openly and listen respectfully with your perspective partners, then you are at best going to be a lousy lay all your life. At worst, you could end up a rapist.

The whole shtick Farrell is peddling is twisted as a corkscrew.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
10 years ago

I think he just doesn’t want people verbalizing anything about sex because verbalizing it gives women the opportunity to say no.

tinyorc
10 years ago

@cassandrakitty
My problem with saying that “Sex with a drunk girl is rape!” is that it does give misogynists all kind of wiggle room, because it frames rape as a symptom of alcohol. This leaves the door wide open for the Emily Yoffess of this world to start telling women that they shouldn’t drink alcohol if they don’t want to be raped, because that’s the inevitable conclusion of all drunken sexual encounters. And it leaves rapists open to say “Well I was drunk too, maybe I’m the one who was raped!”

My view is that the best way to deprive rapists of the cover of alcohol is to severe the link between the two completey, and emphasize that no matter how drunk or sober a person is, you must obtain enthusiastic consent. If you are unsure, you confirm it. If you are still unsure, you stop. If the other person is showing signs of pain or discomfort, you check in, and if necessary, you stop. If you are too drunk to trust your own judgement on any of the above, you stop. If you cross any of these lines, you are a rapist.

Skye
Skye
10 years ago

“If you can’t learn to speak openly and listen respectfully with your perspective partners, then you are at best going to be a lousy lay all your life.”

I apologise for the slight derail here, but I loved this. In my opinion, good communication is *the* most important part of good sex. Not only is consent clear, but the experience can be tailored to the likes/desires of the participants. Since not everyone is into the same things, communication is more useful than merely extrapolating experience with person X onto person Y.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
10 years ago

That’s one of the most funny/annoying things about PUAs, their tendency to get all “do this, it will drive every woman wild”. Well, no. One women might love it, another might hate it, a third might just be bored. Good sex is specific – you have to figure out what that particular person wants, you can’t just go “well it worked with the last person”.

Lea
Lea
10 years ago

This is easy. What do you do if you aren’t sure if your partner has had too much?
Don’t fuck ’em.
Think you might be too drunk to tell or care if another person is giving crystal clear consent?
Stop. Do not fuck anyone. Go sleep it off.
Sex is never an emergency. If your choices are to risk raping someone or just going to bed alone, then you go to bed alone.
If you like substances to be a part of your sexual experience, that is something that you need to discuss before you are taking your pants off. People do it all the time. Getting drunk and screwing is so popular that there is a song called “Why Don’t We Get Drunk and Screw”. Pretending that consent is too hard is some seriously pathetic rape apologia.

Lea
Lea
10 years ago

If a person argues that alcohol makes it impossible to discern consent, then that person needs to only have sober sex. That’s not a difficult step to take to be sure you are not raping someone. Seriously, if you think drinking might lead you to rape someone, please don’t drink.

cloudiah
10 years ago

That’s one of the many things I hate about MRAs. They make it so hard to have an adult, nuanced, complicated discussion about things like when is a person too impaired to have sex, because (for me at least) a part of me is always wondering how they’re going to twist my words.

The honest answer to so many of these questions is “it depends” or “it’s complicated” or “for some people it’s X and for others it’s Y and some people prefer not to answer the question”–and that’s fine if you’re having a discussion with reasonable people.

cloudiah
10 years ago

I do think that training programs aimed primarily at younger/less sexually- and otherwise-experienced people who are frequently hooking up with people they don’t know so well pretend there’s this magic bright line between being not impaired and being too impaired, but I’m not sure what to do about that.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
10 years ago

Yep. I’m not sure there’s any way you can phrase any of this stuff that they’re not going to selectively interpret to mean that they can rape people if they feel like it, though. The problem doesn’t lie with the people making the more nuanced arguments, it lies with that fact that MRAs want to do bad things and will twist, misinterpret, and outright lie about what other people have said in order to justify what they already wanted to do.

emilygoddess
emilygoddess
10 years ago

RubyRubyRuby, it’s possible to be kink-critical (or kink-skeptical or interested in discussing the intersection of kink and patriarchy) without being as dismissive, rude and borderline ableist as you were.

Bina
10 years ago

So I never read Fifty Shades of Grey or romance novels, but when I was a teenager I loved movies like Natural Born Killers. By Warren Farrell logic, would that mean some guy would be excused shooting me to “become my fantasy”? Or do my individual tastes not count because of gender?

Beats the hell out of me. I wonder what WTF would say about my ongoing fondness for A Clockwork Orange (the original British-edition book, not the movie, which is based on the bowdlerized US version of the book). It’s full of the ultra-violence (including one horrific gang rape which results in the death of the woman), but I don’t fantasize about any of that, nor do I romanticize Alex and his droogs. Gender notwithstanding, I am not a submissive little thing.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
10 years ago

I like Clive Barker, so I guess I must want to have sex with Baphomet.

Lea
Lea
10 years ago

when I was a teenager I loved movies like Natural Born Killers. By Warren Farrell logic, would that mean some guy would be excused shooting me to “become my fantasy”? Or do my individual tastes not count because of gender?

I like Clive Barker, so I guess I must want to have sex with Baphomet.

Cthulhu fhtagn! EEE-AAA!

emilygoddess
emilygoddess
10 years ago

Another problem with citing the “popularity” of 50 Shades is that once it went viral, lots of people went out and bought it to see what the buzz was about, but that doesn’t mean they liked it, or wanted to live it. And just as you would with an Ann Coulter book, you have to account for the hate-readers.

Angelica
10 years ago

Flying Spaghetti Monster, Ruby. I laughed SO hard at the ridiculous amount of ignorance and condescention coming from you, it was almost pathetic.

As to the drunkness stuff (I have sooo little time, which is why I cant really get into it..): anyone recall that Friends episode with Chandler and Monica, where they’re about to have sex for the first time and Chandler says “wait, how drunk are you?”, and Monica goes: “drunk enough to know I want to do this, not so drunk you should feel guilty about taking advantage” ?

Children of the Broccoli
Children of the Broccoli
10 years ago

Taylor: if both parties are drunk to the point of blacking out or not knowing what’s happening, then there wouldn’t be any sex happening. If neither of them wanted to have sex with the other, then they won’t have sex. If one person is unwilling or unable to give consent, and the other person has sex with them anyway, the second person is the rapist. If both are drunk but able and willing to give consent, then nobody was raped. I hope that clears things up for you.

katz
10 years ago

For the record, I wasn’t taking the position that you can never consent after having any alcohol, only that if one person is too drunk to consent, then it doesn’t magically stop being rape if the other person gets really drunk, too.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
10 years ago

And if you made sure that you would be just a little tipsy but the person you were with would be blackout drunk or close to it, then you’re a predator.

tinyorc
10 years ago

@katz: Agree, sorry for taking you up the wrong way!

@cassandrakitty: Which, in reality, is how the majority of date rapes actually happen!

Retha
10 years ago

RubyRubyRuby: I see some people here tell you to shut up. You don’t have to shut up just because not everyone agrees with you. You are right that when an activity promotes patriarchy it is not feminism. Your opposition is right that not all BDSM is “man dominating woman.” So that comment of yours do not cover all BDSM.

Except for that, I see mostly indignant “How dare you?!!!” from your opposition. Argument by outrage is not nearly as logical as pointing out, almost like you did, that looking at (and enjoying!) a beaten and battered person (I believe this applies to a beaten or battered man or woman) and feeling pleasure is a sign of sociopathy, Now, they could argue that enjoying to beat and insult a partner is normal and healthy, but it is up to your opposition to provide evidence for said view. Merely insisting it does not make it so.

And I have never seen anyone defend BDSM for several sentences in a row without contradicting themselves or their partners. They say things like: “I like being forced to do things I dislike… Nobody is forcing me – it is consensual.” (Like or dislike? Force or consent?) “He likes to inflict pain on me… He will never hurt a fly.” (Does he like to hurt his partner or not?) “The things that happen during scenes – I couldn’t be happier with it… I need to be comforted afterwards.” (You need to be comforted when you are as happy as can be?) Or the dom say: “She always feels perfectly safe with me” while his sub say: “i am addicted to the feeling of fear i get…” (Safe feelings or scared?) Such cognitive dissonance tells me that BDSM not only hurts the bodies of participants, but their minds too.

hellkell
hellkell
10 years ago

Hey, Retha, could you at least not speculate on the mental health of people while you’re pulling shit out of your ass? Thanks ever so much.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
10 years ago

Some people are free to post incoherent walls of patronizing babble, and other people are free to point and laugh. Isn’t freedom a great thing?