Men’s Rights Activists tend to be fairly blunt; when they express a noxious opinion – and oh so many of their opinions are noxious – they do it in the most obnoxious possible way. It isn’t enough for Paul Elam of A Voice for Men to blame victims of rape; he also has to call them “STUPID, CONNIVING BITCH[es]” wearing the equivalent of PLEASE RAPE ME neon sign[s] glowing above their empty little narcissistic heads.”
Warren Farrell is different. He takes a softer approach. He would never call a woman a bitch or a whore or a cunt. When he speaks, he manages to sound gentle and caring. He talks about the importance of listening to others. He sometimes even manages to give the impression that he cares as much about women as he does about men.
And yet his ideas are as noxious as Elam’s. He is as much of a victim blamer as any slur-spouting MGTOWer complaining about “stuck-up cunts” on an internet message board.
It’s just that he does his victim blaming with such carefully evasive language that he’s able to hide the noxiousness of his ideas – and to avoid taking responsibility for them when he’s challenged on them.
So it wasn’t surprising that a lot of the questions directed at him during his Reddit Ask Me Anything session the other day were attempts to pin down the real meaning of some of his more troubling pronouncements over the years.
A Redditor by the name of fiskitall asked Farrell about a quote from his Myth of Male Power that I also had hoped to see him clarify:
It is important that a woman’s “noes” be respected and her “yeses” be respected. And it is also important when her nonverbal “yeses” (tongues still touching) conflict with those verbal “noes” that the man not be put in jail for choosing the “yes” over the “no.” He might just be trying to become her fantasy.
Though worded with characteristic evasiveness, Farrell seems to be suggesting that men should not be prosecuted for raping women who explicitly tell them “no” if they think that these women are somehow giving them a “nonverbal” go-ahead. His “tongues still touching line” suggests specifically that he thinks a woman who kisses a man is essentially consenting to sex.
So how does he explain this quote? He starts off by trying to explain the bit at the end about fantasy:
the quote comes from the politics of sex chapter of The Myth of Male Power. The point that “He might just be trying to become her fantasy” comes after a discussion of how romance novels and, in my 2014 edition, books like 50 Shades of Grey–books that are the female fantasy–are rarely titled, “He Stopped When I Said ‘No.'” The point is that women’s romance novels are still fantasizing the male-female dichotomy of attract/resist versus pursue/persist, and the law is increasingly punishing that as sexual harassment or date rape.
Beneath the weirdly academic verbiage – all that crap about “the male-female dichotomy of attract/resist” and so on – Farrell is advancing an idea that is really quite insidious: the notion that the popularity of rape fantasies in romance novels and in books like 50 Shades of Grey means that women actually want men to disregard their “noes.” Not only that: he seems to suggest that it’s unfair to prosecute men who rape women because, heck, for all they knew the woman is into that sort of thing.
As I pointed out in a followup question that he ignored,
I’m not sure how the fact that women read romance novels means that they don’t really mean no when they say no. That’s fantasy, not reality. I play video games in which people shoot at me; it doesn’t mean I want people to shoot me in real life.
He continues, his language growing more confusing and evasive:
the law is about dichotomy: guilty vs. innocent. male-female sexual attraction is about nuance. the court can’t begin to address the nuances of the male-female tango. the male role is punishable by law. women have not been resocialized to share the risks of rejection by expectation, only by option. the male role is being criminalized; the female increasingly has the option of calling his role courtship when she likes it, and taking him to court when she doesn’t.
The only real “tango” going on here is in Farrell’s language, in his attempts to so muddy the issue of consent that he manages to suggest that rapists are the victims of women’s “poor socialization” and caprice. In real life, the “male role” is not criminalized; men aren’t jailed for asking women out on dates, or going for a kiss at the end of the night; they’re being jailed for overriding a woman’s “noes” and raping them, though in actuality it is rare for a rapist to see the inside of a jail cell.
And that last bit – his complaint that women have “the option of calling his role courtship when she likes it, and taking him to court when she doesn’t” – seems to be little more than a deliberately confounding way of expressing his frustration that women are allowed to say no at all.
the answer is education about each sex’s fears and feelings–and that education being from early junior high school. we need to focus on making adolescence a better preparation for real love within the framework of respect for the differences in our hormones.
I confess I don’t quite know what he’s talking about here; as far as I can figure it, based on some of the things he’s written in the Myth of Male Power, the reference to “the differences in our hormones” is his way of suggesting that we should be more forgiving of boys when they make sexual “mistakes.” Boys will be boys!
the most dangerous thing that’s going on in some colleges is saying that a woman who says “yes” but is drunk can say in the morning that she was raped, because she was drunk and wasn’t responsible. this is like saying someone who drinks and gets in the car and has an accident is not responsible and shouldn’t get a DUI because she or he is drunk. we would never say the guy isn’t responsible for raping her because he’s drunk. these rules infantalize women and the female role, and criminalize men and the male role.
Well, no. They criminalize people who rape drunk people. A woman who is raped when she is drunk is not the equivalent of a drunk driver; she’s not the one doing the driving.
In his classic essay “Politics and the English Language,” George Orwell described how political writers turned to evasive euphemism, and degraded language generally, in an attempt to disguise the sheer terribleness of the things they were trying to express.
In our time, political speech and writing are largely the defense of the indefensible. Things like the continuance of British rule in India, the Russian purges and deportations, the dropping of the atom bombs on Japan, can indeed be defended, but only by arguments which are too brutal for most people to face, and which do not square with the professed aims of the political parties. Thus political language has to consist largely of euphemism, question-begging and sheer cloudy vagueness. Defenseless villages are bombarded from the air, the inhabitants driven out into the countryside, the cattle machine-gunned, the huts set on fire with incendiary bullets: this is called pacification. Millions of peasants are robbed of their farms and sent trudging along the roads with no more than they can carry: this is called transfer of population or rectification of frontiers. People are imprisoned for years without trial, or shot in the back of the neck or sent to die of scurvy in Arctic lumber camps: this is called elimination of unreliable elements.
It’s easy enough to see that this is exactly Farrell’s game. He can’t say “men shouldn’t be jailed for raping women who say no, because a lot of women have rape fantasies, and so maybe they’re into it” even though this seems to be the most straightforward translation of his basic message.
So instead he talks about how “romance novels are still fantasizing the male-female dichotomy of attract/resist versus pursue/persist”; he complains that “ the male role is being criminalized”; he talks vaguely about creating “the framework of respect for the differences in our hormones.”
But in the end, what he’s saying is worse than Elam’s rant about “conniving bitches” with neon signs over their heads. He just knows how to make the indefensible more palatable to a general audience.
Blockquotes fail.
Weelllll I just wanted to say that as far as I’m concerned, Ruby and Retha can go take a bath in a tub of Lego. I think there’s a lot of valid criticism that can be made about BDSM and kink in general, but UR DAMAGED GOODS WITH BRAIN PROBLEMS isn’t any of it. When you can look at it from a more sociological, rather than a pseudopsychological, perspective, then maybe we can talk.
Also just stop with the armchair diagnoses forever; it’s offensive to begin with, and beyond that, does a lot to make you look like a completely willfully ignorant asshole.
Please correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t the kink community a majority women & sexual minorities? I think that a lot of what would be considered kink for men in an alternate universe is just part of mainstream pornography and such in our world.
I haven’t really wanted to jump into this fight, but do feel the need to address this particular quote:
That’s a really flawed analogy. With BDSM it’s two (or sometimes more) consenting adults who have negotiated boundaries beforehand. When a hoarder keeps too many animals, the animals aren’t consenting to that situation. That’s a huge difference. That’s why it’s abusive to hoard animals even though the hoarder might have good intentions. That’s why as long as people stick to negotiated boundaries during BDSM it is not abuse.
Since the vast majority of commenters here are animal lovers, it’s a low blow to bring up animal abuse to try and score points.
Darrow doesn’t yowl at his water dish, but he does stare at it with contempt for a couple of minutes before drinking. I have no idea why. It seems like he doesn’t like water and only drinks it because he needs to.
My furry bosses cry piteously for food (their own or whatever I’m eating) and then turn up their noses at it when it’s provided. They are the fussiest little fussbudgets I’ve ever catered to.
A lot of cats don’t like still water, and prefer to drink water that moves. I have this water bowl that looks like a small water cooler attached to a regular cat bowl. The kitties will jostle it until it “burps” and then drink the water that burbles out.
Right now, Buster is sitting in front of a painting and meowing at it. Weirdo.
I shouldn’t call Buster weird. Maybe she’s just an art critic.
There are more expensive contraptions you can buy to satisfy your furry overlords’ drinking needs.
RE: J.J
And LBT I read your post and while it was hard to read it helped me process some old memories and I hope a lot of others get to read it
Aw, I’m glad it was helpful! That’s why I forged through it, even though it took ages and required decompressing a bit. I’m also really glad that you like our comics! 😀 I love making them, and will be selling them in person in Atlanta and Kentucky cons if you’re in the US.
RE: Boogerghost
And LBT, thank you for sharing that. I admire you for overcoming that pitiful manipulative #$&%”#’”%$”# trying to make you feel like feeling manipulated was your own fault.
To quote tumblr, “I may not be able to unknow the monsters, but I can become the person who would’ve saved me when I was thirteen.”
RE: sparky
LBT: Can I just give you all the respect? I just, wow. Those letters are just sickening. To be able to post and analyze those, because they might help somebody else, is really awesome.
Thanks. I figure I might as well monkeywrench my horrorshow for the good of SOMEONE. It’s helpful for me to know that as horrible as it was, at least I can use it to protect others.
RE: cassandrakitty
Even if someone appears to be willing to have sex you still always have the option of saying “this situation feels too ethically muddy to me, so no, let’s not”.
Yeah! My husband has done that before… or just said he’s not comfortable doing a thing, even if it seems ethical and we’re both into it. He’s well within his rights to do so! I don’t want an uncomfortable hubby!
RE: katz
The whole “don’t feed the trolls” line is interesting because it’s a direct descendant of the old “ignore the bullies and they’ll leave you alone” line,
Yeah, it’s why I’ve always been uncomfortable with it.
Okay, time to take on Retha and RubyRubyRuby. *sighs, takes a deep drink*
I came from a family with multiple generations of incest and child molestation. I was lucky in that I made it to puberty before being raped, by someone outside the family, on a weekly basis for almost a year. I just made a blog post about this a few days ago; other commenters were talking to me about it.
You know something about my rapist? He was a romantic. He’d give me flowers. He’d write me love poetry. He would never, EVER do anything remotely kinky because everyone knew kink was BAD and he wasn’t a bad man! He was just a gentle, loving, romantic rapist.
I am also severely mentally ill. Disabled for it, in fact. I get tired very easily, and I sometimes have memory distortions, so I keep written records of a bunch of things.
I’ve been married for four years to a wonderful man who, unlike my rapist, actually gives a shit about my feelings. He is a loving man, the kindest I’ve ever met. He helped me recover from my rape shit by modeling for me what a good man is. He is my rock, he is my partner, and he is my best friend.
So you can imagine how enraged I get when some stranger on the Internet equates him with my rapist. You honestly seem to have no idea what grave insult you have just laid at the feet of the man who helped me RECOVER from my rape shit. The man who was patient, and kind, and always, ALWAYS emphasized that sex was on my terms.
I actually AM mentally damaged by the shit that happened to me. I get triggers and panic attacks and I still can not perform ANY sexual act the first time, no matter how tame or gentle, without crying afterward. I’ve got them everything pretty well under control, but make no mistake, that was work. Years of work.
You don’t know anything about me. I am a stranger to you. And yet you judge my sex life, just because sometimes we tie each other up, or roleplay fun things. You equate my happy, healthy, transcendant sex… with the shit my rapist did to me. You claim that I like it because I’m “damaged”> Don’t you dumbasses realize that kink is about the only sexual acts I’ve got that AREN’T tainted by my rapist? The one thing he WASN’T able to do to me?
You have spat in my face. Pissed on the name of my husband. And you claim to be helping me.
Wow, guys. Wow.
Also, I’m a gay trans guy. Am I enacting patriarchy, fighting patriarchy? Please. Do tell me exactly what thought experiment I’m performing for you. I aim to entertain.
@emilygoddess
“This blog is full of people with mental illnesses, including myself, so don’t even try this bullshit. No one is objecting to the idea of a person being mentally ill. We are objecting to your internet diagnoses and your conflation of bad behavior with mental illness. Also, don’t put ableism in quotes, it makes it sound like you don’t believe it’s a thing.”
Man i missed her putting ableism In Quotes. Beth -.-
*bleh
It seems that the autocorrect on Marie’s phone is cackling like a cartoon villain today.
And to continue on, you guys made me laugh with that “re-enacting abuse” remark. The laugh that makes my husband look at me askance.
Look, my rape was a long-term goal of grooming me into a teenage bride. If having sex that at all resembles my rape in any way is “re-enacting abuse,” I would not be able to:
– kiss anyone
– hug anyone
– make out with anyone
– hump anyone
– talk about marriage with anyone
– have anyone ever touch my ass in any way
– do hand jobs, on either end
– do blow jobs, on either end
– vaginal sex
– have sex in a bed
– have sex in a closet
– have sex outside
– have sex on the floor
– do anything with love poetry ever again
You get it? Dude freakin’ used in me in pretty much every way his limited imagination could encompass. I refuse to believe him or you that any sexual act that has anything to do with my rape means that I’m self-harming.
Seriously. You are the sort of “help” I would never want.
@cassandra
“It seems that the autocorrect on Marie’s phone is cackling like a cartoon villain today.”
It is tho :p
Hi, Marie! Nice to see you here–hope things are well with you!
Siri, what’s happened to you??
There really is some confusion about that though. I think originally trolling was a fishing term and that’s how it came to be used on the internet: trying to bait people into responding. But nowadays you’d associate trolls with the trolls under the bridge: scary monsters that operate under the cover of darkness (anonymity) to attack strangers.
“Don’t feed the trolls” is excellent advice if you’re dealing with people that try to start a Microsoft vs Google flame war, but it becomes problematic advice once people start to send death threats to woman that speak out on the internet.
women*
There are different kind of trolls, of course. I generally have a rule of not responding to trolls on things like tumblr just because having any sort of serious conversation there is like trying to write a novel entirely on sticky notes during a windy day. Other times, yeah, there are some trolls who I really don’t care to engage with. (For instance, a certain ex-friend who after our friendship dissolved said that I’d never gotten raped and just had daddy issues.) Some trolls just give me the “ABORT ABORT RUN AWAY” feeling, and it’s wise to follow that.
But a lot of trolls aren’t like that. Plenty of trolls count on not being acknowledged or called out so they can continue harassing people for YEARS. It’s foolish to claim a “one size fits all” solution when different people troll for different reasons.
Also, on this site, we MOCK misogyny, so I’d say the troll reactions are totally appropriate. Our motto is not “Misogyny, we ignore it and hope it dies on its own.”
You know, I’ve been told off by newbies for being too mean to people who to me appear to be either trolling or convinced that every woman in the world should volunteer to be their mommy multiple times, and every single time I’m all, so what you’re saying is that I should just let them carry on pissing all over truth, logic, and whoever happens to be around at the time? Sorry, nope, not doing that.
RE: cassandrakitty
Maybe you should try changing your handle is Macho McManlyBuns for a while, see if that gets them off your back for a while. I notice nobody’s been giving ME flack for such things, and I don’t think it’s that I’m so good-tempered.
Maybe something that’s a normatively masculine version of my nym now, like CharlesRagingBull or some shit like that.
@cloudiah
Hi 😀
Some suggestions.