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Warren Farrell on Date Rape: Defending the Indefensible

George Orwell, meet Warren Farrell
George Orwell, meet Warren Farrell

Men’s Rights Activists tend to be fairly blunt; when they express a noxious opinion – and oh so many of their opinions are noxious – they do it in the most obnoxious possible way. It isn’t enough for Paul Elam of A Voice for Men to blame victims of rape; he also has to call them “STUPID, CONNIVING BITCH[es]” wearing the equivalent of PLEASE RAPE ME neon sign[s] glowing above their empty little narcissistic heads.”

Warren Farrell is different. He takes a softer approach. He would never call a woman a bitch or a whore or a cunt. When he speaks, he manages to sound gentle and caring. He talks about the importance of listening to others. He sometimes even manages to give the impression that he cares as much about women as he does about men.

And yet his ideas are as noxious as Elam’s. He is as much of a victim blamer as any slur-spouting MGTOWer complaining about “stuck-up cunts” on an internet message board.

It’s just that he does his victim blaming with such carefully evasive language that he’s able to hide the noxiousness of his ideas – and to avoid taking responsibility for them when he’s challenged on them.

So it wasn’t surprising that a lot of the questions directed at him during his Reddit Ask Me Anything session the other day were attempts to pin down the real meaning of some of his more troubling pronouncements over the years.

A Redditor by the name of fiskitall asked Farrell about a quote from his Myth of Male Power that I also had hoped to see him clarify:

It is important that a woman’s “noes” be respected and her “yeses” be respected. And it is also important when her nonverbal “yeses” (tongues still touching) conflict with those verbal “noes” that the man not be put in jail for choosing the “yes” over the “no.” He might just be trying to become her fantasy.

Though worded with characteristic evasiveness, Farrell seems to be suggesting that men should not be prosecuted for raping women who explicitly tell them “no” if they think that these women are somehow giving them a “nonverbal” go-ahead. His “tongues still touching line” suggests specifically that he thinks a woman who kisses a man is essentially consenting to sex.

So how does he explain this quote? He starts off by trying to explain the bit at the end about fantasy:

the quote comes from the politics of sex chapter of The Myth of Male Power. The point that “He might just be trying to become her fantasy” comes after a discussion of how romance novels and, in my 2014 edition, books like 50 Shades of Grey–books that are the female fantasy–are rarely titled, “He Stopped When I Said ‘No.'” The point is that women’s romance novels are still fantasizing the male-female dichotomy of attract/resist versus pursue/persist, and the law is increasingly punishing that as sexual harassment or date rape.

Beneath the weirdly academic verbiage – all that crap about “the male-female dichotomy of attract/resist” and so on – Farrell is advancing an idea that is really quite insidious: the notion that the popularity of rape fantasies in romance novels and in books like 50 Shades of Grey means that women actually want men to disregard their “noes.” Not only that: he seems to suggest that it’s unfair to prosecute men who rape women because, heck, for all they knew the woman is into that sort of thing.

As I pointed out in a followup question that he ignored,

I’m not sure how the fact that women read romance novels means that they don’t really mean no when they say no. That’s fantasy, not reality. I play video games in which people shoot at me; it doesn’t mean I want people to shoot me in real life.

He continues, his language growing more confusing and evasive:

the law is about dichotomy: guilty vs. innocent. male-female sexual attraction is about nuance. the court can’t begin to address the nuances of the male-female tango. the male role is punishable by law. women have not been resocialized to share the risks of rejection by expectation, only by option. the male role is being criminalized; the female increasingly has the option of calling his role courtship when she likes it, and taking him to court when she doesn’t.

The only real “tango” going on here is in Farrell’s language, in his attempts to so muddy the issue of consent that he manages to suggest that rapists are the victims of women’s “poor socialization” and caprice. In real life, the “male role” is not criminalized; men aren’t jailed for asking women out on dates, or going for a kiss at the end of the night; they’re being jailed for overriding a woman’s “noes” and raping them, though in actuality it is rare for a rapist to see the inside of a jail cell.

And that last bit – his complaint that women have “the option of calling his role courtship when she likes it, and taking him to court when she doesn’t” – seems to be little more than a deliberately confounding way of expressing his frustration that women are allowed to say no at all.

the answer is education about each sex’s fears and feelings–and that education being from early junior high school. we need to focus on making adolescence a better preparation for real love within the framework of respect for the differences in our hormones.

I confess I don’t quite know what he’s talking about here; as far as I can figure it, based on some of the things he’s written in the Myth of Male Power, the reference to “the differences in our hormones” is his way of suggesting that we should be more forgiving of boys when they make sexual “mistakes.” Boys will be boys!

the most dangerous thing that’s going on in some colleges is saying that a woman who says “yes” but is drunk can say in the morning that she was raped, because she was drunk and wasn’t responsible. this is like saying someone who drinks and gets in the car and has an accident is not responsible and shouldn’t get a DUI because she or he is drunk. we would never say the guy isn’t responsible for raping her because he’s drunk. these rules infantalize women and the female role, and criminalize men and the male role.

Well, no. They criminalize people who rape drunk people. A woman who is raped when she is drunk is not the equivalent of a drunk driver; she’s not the one doing the driving.

In his classic essay “Politics and the English Language,” George Orwell described how political writers turned to evasive euphemism, and degraded language generally, in an attempt to disguise the sheer terribleness of the things they were trying to express.

In our time, political speech and writing are largely the defense of the indefensible. Things like the continuance of British rule in India, the Russian purges and deportations, the dropping of the atom bombs on Japan, can indeed be defended, but only by arguments which are too brutal for most people to face, and which do not square with the professed aims of the political parties. Thus political language has to consist largely of euphemism, question-begging and sheer cloudy vagueness. Defenseless villages are bombarded from the air, the inhabitants driven out into the countryside, the cattle machine-gunned, the huts set on fire with incendiary bullets: this is called pacification. Millions of peasants are robbed of their farms and sent trudging along the roads with no more than they can carry: this is called transfer of population or rectification of frontiers. People are imprisoned for years without trial, or shot in the back of the neck or sent to die of scurvy in Arctic lumber camps: this is called elimination of unreliable elements.

It’s easy enough to see that this is exactly Farrell’s game. He can’t say “men shouldn’t be jailed for raping women who say no, because a lot of women have rape fantasies, and so maybe they’re into it” even though this seems to be the most straightforward translation of his basic message.

So instead he talks about how “romance novels are still fantasizing the male-female dichotomy of attract/resist versus pursue/persist”; he complains that “ the male role is being criminalized”; he talks vaguely about creating “the framework of respect for the differences in our hormones.”

But in the end, what he’s saying is worse than Elam’s rant about “conniving bitches” with neon signs over their heads. He just knows how to make the indefensible more palatable to a general audience.

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Alice B (@Alice_Brierley)

Absolutely awful comments from Farrell there – full of the same sort of victim-blaming rhetoric we see on the very worst MRA sites.

hellkell
hellkell
7 years ago

Farrell must be so tired after all that tap-dancing around what he really means. He’s a million times worse than Elam.

LBT
LBT
7 years ago

I know I posted it already, but for those who missed it, you can see this logic in action with my blog post, where I analyzed and hacked apart the “love letters” written to me by my rapist. He was also fond of this kind of waffling logic, which as long as you ignore what he was doing sounds like he’s just dealing with relationship compatibility issues, when in actuality, he was raping a child on a weekly basis for a year.

Tulgey Logger
Tulgey Logger
7 years ago

If the “male role” is to essentially flip a coin on whether you’re a rapist or not—and that’s reading Farrell charitably— THEN WHY WOULD YOU BE COMPLAINING ABOUT HOW IT’S BAD TO GO TO BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR BEING A RAPIST. The only reason for that is to continue being able to enjoy the relative power of the “male role”.

At least this confirms that his shitty old book is still up to date. I don’t even want to speculate on his psychological motives for making these arguments, but it reflects a complete lack of empathy.

tesformes
7 years ago

Looking at the new cover of his book, I don’t think he’s trying to reach anyone who doesn’t already take him seriously.

BreakfastMan
BreakfastMan
7 years ago

I can’t even begin to explain how much Warren Farrell and those who defend his stupidity infuriate me. I have seen people defend these claims time and time again, and I always have to fight back a massive urge to yell “FUCK YOU” to them at the top of my lungs. Like, how can people not see how horrible this is? The rape apologia here is so damn obvious, yet I still see people try to defend this. D:

Bina
Bina
7 years ago

Oh, but male power is a myth, because DAT ASS! DAT ASS has all the power, because it makes him do all those coin-flippy things.

Ghaaaah.

cloudiah
7 years ago

the option of calling his role courtship when she likes it, and taking him to court when she doesn’t

I don’t understand what is wrong with this option, especially since “his role” appears to be defined as sexing the woman. If she doesn’t want to have sex with him and he goes ahead anyway, Farrell thinks she shouldn’t have the right to take him to court. He is disgusting.

And for FSM’s sake, I read that entire comment thread you linked to here, and see a bunch of regular misters being rape apologists. Ick.

weirwoodtreehugger
7 years ago

People really need to get over the accidental rape excuse. If there’s any doubt in your mind that the other person is really consenting, stop and clarify things. IT’S NOT THAT HARD MISTERS!

Bina
Bina
7 years ago

Accidental rape? Is that like where he slips on a banana peel and somehow, as he’s flying through the air, his erect dick pops out of his pants and spears the first woman he lands upon? What a strange concept.

emilygoddess
emilygoddess
7 years ago

The really odious thing about lines like “her words said no but her body said yes” or “some women have rape fantasies” is that they’re trying to reframe rape as the man doing the woman a favor. It’s like a masterclass in gaslighting.

Bina
Bina
7 years ago

Oh yeah, he’s just trying to “be her fantasy”. He forgets that some fantasies were explicitly never meant to be realized, and that unless someone explicitly ASKS you to do that, you should assume nothing about her wanting it.

BreakfastMan
BreakfastMan
7 years ago

For some brain bleach, here is a funny stand-up joke about what Farrell is talking about, but without rape apologia:

Diana Adams
Diana Adams
7 years ago

The point that “He might just be trying to become her fantasy” comes after a discussion of how romance novels and, in my 2014 edition, books like 50 Shades of Grey–books that are the female fantasy–are rarely titled, “He Stopped When I Said ‘No.’”

Those are the worse arguments for defense of rape those people use. There also exist lots of people who watch horror movies or movies about serial killers etc. Does that mean that those people wouldn’t mind to be tortured, murdered etc ? Maybe in the world of Warren Farrell and the likes…Are those people really so awful, that they can’t grasp the simple fact that rape is a very serious crime and that women in general don’t want to be raped?

Alex
7 years ago

“Accidental rape” is bullshit. I have had casual partners ask me if I was okay when I started panting hard or when I got, um, loud. Didn’t ruin the moment, but they knew I was consenting, and I knew they cared enough to ask, which in turn made me feel that much safer with them, which only makes the sex better too. I’ve asked if partners were okay when their expressions seemed to be in pain or when they suddenly gasped. It’s just something you do if you actually give a shit about the person you’re boinking (and you should, regardless of the relationship or lack their of) and you’re not sure if they’re having a good time or not. On the other hand, the only questions my rapist asked were if I’d done x activity before promptly attempting to do it no matter what my answer was. This was a guy I was totally down to having sex with. It’s just that he saw me as a receptacle for some things he wanted to try rather than a person to share an activity with.

If in doubt, clarify. It’s really not that hard. The person who doesn’t bother and is later accused of rape is no more deserving of sympathy than the stranger in the bushes.

Alice
Alice
7 years ago

Yes, Alex. My partner and I were making love once and when he called out loudly with an expression of pain on his face I immediately stopped and asked if he was ok. I did not just keep going, assuming that he was into it. Turns out he had hurt a tendon in his neck and was suffering from a massive headache. So yeah, we stopped the sex because he was no longer into it.

Farrell is such a blowhard. Besides being a terrible person he is also a shit writer.

damselindetech
7 years ago

Warren Farrel and his ilk are EXACTLY the reason why I wrote this post:

http://damsel-in-de-tech.blogspot.com/2014/02/lets-change-discourse-on-protecting-men.html

If they’re so terribly concerned about men being falsely accused of rape, then why not teach men safety advice the same way we teach it to women? Why not teach men that if they’re not sure that it’s a matter of their own safety to stop? Is it because, gasp, this isn’t about protecting men but giving them thin cover to continue to rape?

Lili Fugit
Lili Fugit
7 years ago

While it’s totally true that “books” like 50 Shades and all the rest do send the message that women enjoy being dominated and raped, that’s because those books are entirely part of the broader rape culture, whether the “writers” who write them know that or not, or are just expressing their own personal turn-ons that publishers pick up and think “oh yes, this’ll do nicely” because those PUBLISHERS are also part of a broader rape culture whether they know it or not.

(Romance novels, btw, absolutely NEVER depict anything most of us would consider rape. There’s a very precise formula all romance novels follow, including the fact that the female lead must do the pursuing and get her man. It’s not expressed in a feminist context, but rape and domination almost never play a role in the classic romance novel as mass marketed today.)

And I’ve never once heard of an instance where a female was drunk and SAID YES, and after she sobered up changed her mind because of regret and actually got a man arrested. Never once. It’s that whole SAID YES thing. You absolutely can get drunk and give consent– you can even have a blast, and afterwards go WTF was I thinking? But my point is, the law in general doesn’t get that a woman was raped when she’s been attacked in a dark alley by a complete stranger. The law can’t grasp gang rape of passed out girls who presumably were never sober enough to say yes in the first place. So I feel pretty safe in assuring all of those folks out there who have done it with a drunk chick who said YES! that they’re perfectly safe. No one expects you to carry around a breathalizer. Hell, no one expects YOU to be sober enough to judge if that YES! was said soberly enough.

I’m not advocating for drunken stupid sex. Well, okay, maybe I am, but I’m saying that a clear YES from a drunk person is Consent, but imperfect, so maybe think twice about that or get a little coffee into your date first. A clear NO is still Not Consent. A BLERRRRGH? is absolutely Not Consent. You should be able to tell the difference.

xodima
7 years ago

The MRA: Choose your extremist misogyny.

Rage
Manipulation
Sophism

Fibinachi
7 years ago

the quote comes from the politics of sex chapter of The Myth of Male Power. The point that “He might just be trying to become her fantasy” comes after a discussion of how romance novels and, in my 2014 edition, books like 50 Shades of Grey–books that are the female fantasy–are rarely titled, “He Stopped When I Said ‘No.’” The point is that women’s romance novels are still fantasizing the male-female dichotomy of attract/resist versus pursue/persist, and the law is increasingly punishing that as sexual harassment or date rape.

Which is all very well – exceeeeeept….

from that same chapter:

in a sense, sexual harassment lawsuits are just the latest version of the female selection process – allowing her to select for men who care enough for her to put their career at risk; who have enough finesse to initiate without becoming a jerk and enough guts to initiate despite a potential lawsuit

and the chapter on the politics of sex of Myth of Male Power references

“workplace incest. Consensual sex among employees. The workplace, like the family, has lines of authority which sexual bonding tends to blur

What’s with the fucking flashdancing incest?

Huh, he must be referencing this half a paragraph inbetween all the mentions of how sexual harassment legislation harms equality.. (It makes hiring women more expensive, and since by nature, any company that hires a woman must protect her from all the men, it makes hiring costs exorbitant)

It doesn’t stop with Cosmopolitan. As women’s workforce participatin increased, Harlequin Romances discovered a formula that appealed to the working woman. It involves a successful man pursuing a working woman, the working woman resisting, the man overcoming her resistance, and her being “swept away”. It was the age-old formula – he: pursue, persist; she: attract, resist. But now it was also the definition of sexual harassment

Huh.
It must be all those romances novels a href=”http://fibinaut.wordpress.com/2014/04/27/fotmomp-romance-is-dead/”>Warren Farrell consistently gets wrong, misinterprets or just doesn’t know anything about

Skye
Skye
7 years ago

I think the best thing about Farrell are his initials.

BreakfastMan
BreakfastMan
7 years ago

@Lili Fugit: Eh, not so sure about 50 shades’s popularity being a symptom of rape culture… More of a symbol of how our patriarchal culture suppresses sex drives. I really don’t think a women having sexual fantasies of being dominated means she is buying into the patriarchy. :

Bina
Bina
7 years ago

in a sense, sexual harassment lawsuits are just the latest version of the female selection process – allowing her to select for men who care enough for her to put their career at risk; who have enough finesse to initiate without becoming a jerk and enough guts to initiate despite a potential lawsuit

“Enough guts to initiate despite a potential lawsuit”? Warren, you stupid fucker…that’s not “guts”, that’s idiocy. If what you’re “initiating” is potentially illegal, that’s a big flashing WARNING sign. A major red flag. A “do not pass enter, do not collect $200, go directly to jail” card. It’s not a female “selection” process. We don’t WANT guys to do illegal shit to us. Why the hell do you think it’s illegal?

Jesus H. Christ, that is so stupid that it makes me want to strangle a lightpost.

J.J
J.J
7 years ago

In an odd coincidence, I just read Orwell’s Politics and the English language for class.

…and can we please stop with the drunk driving/rape comparison, misogynists? It’s been pointed out over and over that it doesn’t make sense. Besides, the amount of rapists who actually see jail time is pretty freakin’ minimal, so stop acting like ‘taking back consent’ is a thing. If you have sex with someone who is too drunk to say yes or no, is rape. Stop trying to make excuses for yourself and go get a fleshlight, since you don’t seem to need your partner to respond or enjoy themselves in any way. Which means no woman should want to have sex with you, since it’d be terrible.

And LBT I read your post and while it was hard to read it helped me process some old memories and I hope a lot of others get to read it; emotional manipulation is a scary thing because it’s hard to even recognize when it happens. Thanks so much for writing it. (And for your comics, because I’ve never read anything like them and I’m learning things!)

Boogerghost
Boogerghost
7 years ago

Yeah, for me too, it’s the insidious shit like this, that to the unfocused sounds like it could be coming from a thoughtful analysis, that really makes my skin crawl.

Your use of that Orwell quote is perfect.

And LBT, thank you for sharing that. I admire you for overcoming that pitiful manipulative #$&%”#'”%$”# trying to make you feel like feeling manipulated was your own fault.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
7 years ago

So he’s still in denial about the fact that sometimes a woman just genuinely isn’t interested in you – not because you’re not acting alpha enough/you don’t have enough money/feminism has taught her bad things, but because she thinks you’re fugly/your personality makes her want to run away screaming/you bore the crap out of her.

Kim
Kim
7 years ago

(It makes hiring women more expensive, and since by nature, any company that hires a woman must protect her from all the men, it makes hiring costs exorbitant)

More economical would be not hiring sexual harassers. The only way someone could make the argument that it’s the women who are making things more expensive is if they believe that men are incapable of not harassing women. So… I can see why MRAs make that argument.

Kim
Kim
7 years ago

I should have said : is if they believe that men are incapable of not harassing women AND men are vital and women are disposable.

grumpycatisagirl
7 years ago

As I’m reading through this thread, I’m getting increasingly pissed off at Farrell for asserting that 50 Shades of Grey and Harlequin romances are “the female fantasy” and the “working woman’s thing or whatever.” I’m a working woman and that stuff really isn’t my thing. Mostly because I’m not a fan of terrible writing. I’m not sure what he said about Cosmopolitan, but I also think Cosmopolitan is terrible.

Stop making sweeping generalizations that don’t apply to me just because I’m a woman, dude.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
7 years ago

So, wait, “non-working” (I really hate framing things this way, but I’m trying to work with his fucked up view of the world) women don’t like those things or what?

He basically just makes shit up as he goes along.

titianblue
titianblue
7 years ago

Well, this explains all the ‘false” rape accusations these misters whine about so much. Because, hey, WTF says to ignore a woman’s verbal “noes”, to ignore her non-verbal “noes” and to ignore her state of intoxication. WTF has given you permission to rape, misters, and to feel aggrieved when you get called on it.

Oh, and just remember that romantic novels have given a universal consent to sex on behalf of all women. Yep, it’s too late, now, ladies. When some other woman somewhere read that romantic novel, you personally were agreeing to all sex with all men everywhere. Who knew?

titianblue
titianblue
7 years ago

Yep, and I don’t know how you tango, Dr Farrell, but if you are dragging a reluctant partner around the floor while she tries to refuse, that’s a fucking ugly dance.

House Mouse Queen
7 years ago

Whenever I come across rape apologia from the MRA’s I often find myself questioning why they are so adamant about hating enthusiastic consent. IMV they are throwing mantrums b/c they want a blurred line. If things get really definitive they think they won’t ever have sex and well, that makes them rapey. Also, why would you want to be with someone who is not present in the moment? That’s a very fucked up view of sex. Maybe some of the males in here can explain any kind of socialization that may/may not lead to this view?

We know that men have raped women who were passed out but I’m talking about men who use alcohol to disinhibit a woman thereby making it easier for them to ‘score.’ Is that a masculine socialization? Did any of the guys on here experience that attitude?

Children of the Broccoli
Children of the Broccoli
7 years ago

It really pisses me off when rape apologists use some women’s rape fantasies as an excuse to ignore women’s noes. Even if you know for a fact that a given woman likes consent play, that doesn’t mean you can ignore her noes. She still has the right to choose her sexual partner, she still has the right to not want to sleep with you on the first date, she still has the right to say no. Unless she specifically told you to ignore her protests and set up a safe word, you have to treat no as meaning no.

RubyRubyRuby
RubyRubyRuby
7 years ago

I just have to comment about BDSM/kink, which is definitely rape culture and patriarchy, and inherently anti-feminist, even if women partake in BDSM and seem to enjoy themselves. What a coincidence, women have been taught since birth that we are “naturally submissive” and that male aggression or sexual violence against us is “sexy” and how sex is supposed to be. Furthermore, women choosing to do something, participating in something, or consenting to something such as BDSM, does not automatically make it a feminist choice or activity when said activity promotes patriarchy and is harmful to women as a whole.

BDSM sexualizes violence, and since sexualized violence is the most pressing issue facing women world wide, I hardly view BDSM as a liberating choice for women. It is damaging and does nothing except reinforce the same male dom/sub female roles that Warren Farrell is talking about. We must be critical about the choices we make and how patriarchal influence has shaped our lives.

Looking at a beaten and battered woman and feeling sexually aroused will never be anything but a sign of sociopathy, and getting a group of these men together and praising them for their “courage” in admitting their true nature is dangerous to women. Getting women who want to be abused and dehumanized (and I view sexual masochism as similar to people who want to cut or otherwise harm themselves — a sign of mental instability/trauma) and introducing them to these men, setting them up and facilitating their abuse, is, obviously harmful.

mythago
7 years ago

This sounds less like clever Orwellian euphemism and more like full-on rambling incoherence. Does he even hear himself? Sexual harassment lawsuits are something women came up with as some kind of Sexy-O-Meter, because real manly men not only ignore “no”, they ignore “Bob, if we get one more report like this you will be terminated immediately”? Also, how is a woman uttering a coherent ‘no’ with her tongue in some guy’s mouth?

Farrell is simply projecting his gendered D/s fetishes on the rest of humanity, and doesn’t grasp the concept of a safeword. It’s less infuriating than pathetic and creepy.

Noadi
7 years ago

Well I can see how powerful dat ass can be. (Because we need some brain bleach)

Noadi
7 years ago

@Ruby Ummm… no. Just fucking no. What you are saying is that my physical responses are wrong and if I was feminist enough I’d choose to have fulfilling sex rather than sex I actively enjoy. BDSM is not violence, it may look like it from the outside but it isn’t. It’s as much violence as consensual sex is rape. Just because I enjoy pain (not always sexually either, I’d say less than half the BDSM I do involves sexual contact of any kind) doesn’t not mean I’m buying into patriarchy.

Also I would point out that Male Dom/Female Sub is far from the only expression of BDSM out there. Good job erasing over half the people doing BDSM.

Noadi
7 years ago

*choose to have UNFULFILLING sex. Need to pay more attention to autocorrect.

mythago
7 years ago

@Noadi: or perhaps more than half, given that not everybody is in a heterosexual relationship, either.

Noadi
7 years ago

@mythago Exactly.There are probably more male dom/female sub relationships than female dom/male sub (my experience puts it at around 60/40) but add in all the non-heterosexual relationships and those that don’t involve dom/sub dynamics and it’s well over half. BDSM has been part of my life for over a dozen years and that whole time has been as a masochist and switch, I’ve bottomed a lot but I’ve never been submissive to anyone.

Malitia
Malitia
7 years ago

OK. So by this logic the pervasiveness of the harem genre, incompetent male leads, tsundere type women and abuse of said male characters in male oriented romances (most of these are anime/manga) mean that deep down all men want to be losers in abusive relationships but still have a lot of pretty women around who give a kiss on their fee-fees when not abusing them. I call this the Love Hina argument! :3

pecunium
7 years ago

Ruby: You are wrong. I can see how someone ignorant of consent as a really valid idea (i.e. one can set limits, and one’s partner(s) will respect them) might think the way you do, but no.

And saying enjoyment of a consenting behavior which has no real harm is a mental disorder… so fucking wrong words almost fail me. You are in no place to say merely enjoying pain, in a sexual context, is inherently disordred. Not only that, you are at odds with the understanding of those who actually study these things in depth.

So, I’ll repeat myself.

You are wrong.

That’s without addressing the latent sexism of your, “BDSM/kink is all about degrading women”. I know a lot of men in the scene who like to be the masochist. I know a lot of not-straight people who are into pain/kink/BDSM (and not all of that involves being submissive. I know people who enjoy wax, or nipple clamps, or … who aren’t into being controlled, they enjoy it a lot more with a partner).

People like what they like. So long as they aren’t doing real harm (by which I mean actual physical/psychological damage), their kink is ok with me. What’s not ok is telling them they are wrong, just because it offends your sense of order.

What’s really not wrong is telling them they are in some way in need of medical help because you think them fundamentally disordered.

That’s fucked up.

Rilian
Rilian
7 years ago

Does the thing about not being able to consent if you’re drunk only apply if one person is drunk and the other is sober?

katz
7 years ago

Does the thing about not being able to consent if you’re drunk only apply if one person is drunk and the other is sober?

Nope. Still rape to have sex with a drunk person if you’re drunk too.

Gen
Gen
7 years ago

Yes but what if both are drunk and regret it in the morning? WHAT THEN? How will drunk people ever be able to have drunken sex again? /sarcasm

No, seriously. Sex is like driving. If anyone’s drunk, don’t do it. It’s not that hard.

Alan Boyle (@SkepticalNumber)

If anyone’s drunk, don’t do it. It’s not that hard.

Yeah, but it can be difficult when it’s the drunk person that’s trying to initiate sex, and they’re getting frustrated with you as the sober person saying no.

I personally refuse to have sex with anyone that’s been drinking, due to the consent issue. But when my partner drinks, she becomes extremely amorous, and does her absolute best to initiate sex/seduce me. My ex-wife was the same. Yet neither like/liked my stance of “I’m not going to do that because you’ve been drinking.” They took it personally, and it has resulted in them becoming upset over being turned down. I’ve had rows over it.

So while I agree it’s simple, I don’t agree it’s not that hard. It can be extremely emotionally draining when your drunken partner is doing their absolute best to start sex and doesn’t understand why you’re turning them down.

When I drink, I have zero interest in sex, so the reverse is never an issue.

titianblue
titianblue
7 years ago

Farrell is simply projecting his gendered D/s fetishes on the rest of humanity, and doesn’t grasp the concept of a safeword. It’s less infuriating than pathetic and creepy.

No. And no again.

This has nothing to do with D/s fetishes. WTF wants to be able to rape with impunity. This has nothing to do with D/s. He doesn’t care about how the other person feels or what they want or whether they get off. Hell, I doubt he is even aware that the other person actually is a person with wants, desires or the ability to get off. All he wants is to bring back the good old days when a man like him could merrily date-rape to his heart’s content and where, if society had any reaction at all, it was to tell the victim she was a slut who actually wanted it.

So now all he does is justify date rape and tell any woman who complains that she actually wanted it. That’s not kink or BDSM or a fetish. It’s not creepy or pathetic. I struggle to find the correct words for just how horrible it is.

titianblue
titianblue
7 years ago

Is that the old Ruby? Fuck off, Ruby.

titianblue
titianblue
7 years ago

I personally refuse to have sex with anyone that’s been drinking, due to the consent issue.

So you’re trying not to be a rapist. Well done. Have a cookie.

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