Warren Farrell, the intellectual grandfather of the Men’s Rights movement, is doing an AMA on Reddit today at 1 PM Eastern time. UPDATE: It’s started, and it’s here.
AMA, in Reddit-speak, stands for Ask Me Anything. So I would encourage you to ask Mr. Farrell questions about anything he has said or written in the past that you find troubling, or even just confusing.
Here are some suggestions. Seriously, ask him any of these, as I’m not sure I’ll be able to be online when the whole thing goes down.
1) Mr Farrell, in your book The Myth of Male Power, you wrote that:
It is important that a woman’s “noes” be respected and that her “yeses” be respected. And it is also important when nonverbal “yeses” (tongues still touching) conflict with those verbal “noes” that the man not be put in jail for choosing the “yes” over the “no.” He might just be trying to become her fantasy.
Are you suggesting that if a woman clearly says no to sex, but does not stop kissing a man, that he is entitled to have sex with her anyway because she has given him a non-verbal “yes?” If not, what specifically do you mean? What sort of non-verbal “yes” would outweigh a clear verbal “no?” Why doesn’t her verbal no mean no?
Source: Myth of Male Power, page 315.
Screencap here: http://i.imgur.com/cwSoc.png
2) Mr. Farrell, regarding your research on incest in the 1970s, you told Penthouse magazine that:
“When I get my most glowing positive cases, 6 out of 200,” says Farrell, “the incest is part of the family’s open, sensual style of life, wherein sex is an outgrowth of warmth and affection. It is more likely that the father has good sex with his wife, and his wife is likely to know and approve — and in one or two cases to join in.”
Were you actually suggesting that there are “glowing, positive cases” of parent-child incest – that is, child sexual abuse? How can child sexual abuse be “glowing” or “positive” for the child?
If this is not what you meant, what did you mean?
Penthouse also quotes you as saying that you were doing your research
“because millions of people who are now refraining from touching, holding, and genitally caressing their children, when that is really a part of a caring, loving expression, are repressing the sexuality of a lot of children and themselves. Maybe this needs repressing, and maybe it doesn’t.”
As I understand it, you’ve said you were misquoted and that you did not say “genitally,” and that what you actually said was “generally” or “gently.” But even with the word replaced, you are suggesting that parents are repressing their sexuality and their children’s sexuality if they don’t “caress” their children. What did you mean by this?
Sources:
Transcript of Penthouse article: http://nafcj.net/taboo1977farrell.htm
Scanned pages of original article from Penthouse: http://www.thelizlibrary.org/site-index/site-index-frame.html#soulhttp://www.thelizlibrary.org/fathers/farrell2.htm
3) Mr. Farrell, why did you choose a photograph of a nude woman’s ass for the cover of the new edition of The Myth of Male Power? Do you really think that male power is somehow negated by female sexuality?
4) Mr. Farrell, why have you chosen to associate yourself with the website A Voice for Men, a site that frequently refers to women as “cunts,” “bitches,” and “whores?” If you are not aware of this, would you disassociate yourself from the site if given clear proof of the site’s frequent misogynistic attacks on women?
If you’re looking for more ideas on questions to ask him, check out my posts on him in the archives.
These might be good to start with:
The Myth of Warren Farrell: Farrell on Rape, Part One
Warren Farrell’s notorious comments on date rape: Not any more defensible in context than out of it
What Men’s Rights guru Warren Farrell actually said about the allegedly positive aspects of incest.
MRA founding father Warren Farrell responds to questions about his incest research with evasive non-answers. And a smiley. (About his last AMA appearance.
Warren Farrell on Unemployment, Salesmanship, and Other Things That Are Like Rape, Supposedly
Also check out the excellent Farrell’s Follies series on Reddit.
And Fibinachi has a series on Farrell as well.
Fibinachi:
Can we refer to the misters as the Ranks of the Butt-Addled? Farrell is pretty much condoning its accuracy, so I don’t see why not.
Shaenon:
How exciting! Also, it’s almost like women are all individuals who would react to Brad Pitt in a variety of different ways depending on the circumstances and their personal attitude/non-attitude towards him.
Also, what percentage of women are “genetic celebrities”? Is it over 50%? That seems unlikely, considering how much contempt the MRM holds for old women, fat women, non-feminine women, etc.
If it’s not the majority of women then the whole argument falls to pieces, because you can’t argue that women as a class are oppressing heterosexual men as a class, if by “women” you mean a small percentage of thin, conventionally attractive, long-haired, blemish-free, traditionally feminine women. I mean, even then, you can’t actually argue that they are oppressing men simply by existing in their bodies, so it’s basically like building a house of cards on top of a game of Jenga.
And what about her? Does she get to expect the same from him, or is it all about Teh Menz, as usual? Because sometimes, women do cheat (and walk out) on emotionally distant men, you know…
(Christ, that stupid AVFM “Listening” meme just popped into my mind. Probably because this is one of their tropes, too.)
Back to this stupidity again. It reminds me of an ex-boyfriend of mine from 20 years ago, who constantly ragged and shamed me about my ass, and how unattracted he was to it. In the end, his demolition of my self-esteem helped to send me into a depressive tailspin that killed the relationship. Yet, funnily, when we first started dating, he couldn’t take his eyes off…my face. Didn’t even know I had an ass, let alone such a horrible imperfect one, because he adored my face so much. At one time I actually had to remind him to look at the road, because he was driving and couldn’t stop staring at my face. Funny how he forgot all about that later on and started fixating on how “unathletic” my body was, right after he started having sex with that monstrosity on a regular basis (and wasn’t having any erectile problems, either, so the “not attracted” bit is questionable to say the least). Thing is, he KNEW how unathletic I was BEFORE we started dating. I still don’t know what his real problem was.
And yeah, that bullshit was pretty “imprisoning”, all right. So much so that once he dumped me, my depression lifted in a matter of weeks, because at least I didn’t have to listen to him yammer about how hideous my butt was anymore, or how I shoulda been a gym bunny, blah blah blah. And I got back in the saddle before he did, and made sure he knew it, too. He wasn’t happy. I couldn’t have cared less. And when I met him again some years later, and saw that he’d gained so much weight (and it wasn’t muscle, either) that I didn’t even recognize him, while I had stayed the same…well…I laughed!
And now I’m laughing again, because now butts like mine are so much in fashion that the skinny gym bunnies he wanted me to be like are getting implants. O Karma, where is thy sting…
Oy oy oy oy oy. There is so much wrongness in that thread.
I don’t even know where to start, and my brain is already fried from trying to argue with redditors who are unwilling to accept the basic premise that no means no.
I think I’ll save it for my next post. Or three. Seriously, I’m going to need more than one post for all of this.
The HYPNOBUTT is just the beginning.
That Farrell never bothers to deconstruct the sex binary in all of his writing is proof that his analyses of gender are doomed to be full of holes. It’s why he thinks he has a reason to say stupid shit like “genetic celebrity”. I firmly believe that sex is determined by gender, not the other way around. Most people (especially cis people) have this silly assumption that sex somehow precedes gender, but the sex binary is nothing more than a discursive formation that provides a material basis of sexism in order to justify sexism. People taking the sex binary seriously is precisely why the nature/nurture debates rage on and on about sexual dimorphism. I don’t think those debates are even relevant to the question of patriarchy’s potential of being dismantled.
All of this has me thinking: Would Farrell ever want to team up with TERFs like all other transmisogynist MRAs have done?
Ew, just ew.
OT, but I encountered a MRA conspiracy theory today I hadn’t heard yet, and – being a long time lurker here I thought I”d drop by and see if you’ve had this one laid on you yet. It’s fascinating to me in its “brilliant” (not) confluence of racism, sexism, fears of sexual inadequacy, Grand Unification Theory-ism simplicity. From a purely sociological standpoint, that is. Here you go:
Feminism is responsible for the rise of “BRA” (“Black Run America” – yes, yes) because black men have higher testosterone levels than white men, and feminism is responsible for giving women all those birth control pills, which caused a higher level of estrogen to enter the water system and thus emasculate the white male who has a naturally lower level of testosterone. Thus women, who in spite of feminist lies want a True Alpha Male, now turn to The Black Alpha Male and have all become liberal Obama voters and the white man is oppressed and can’t stand up for himself anymore, or get a girlfriend.
The mind boggles. Someone should ask Will Ferrell about this. I don’t do reddit.
For anyone with fried brains, you might appreciate John Scalzi and Ken Popehat trolling the misters.
Note that the misters once again made a false allegation! The rest of us acknowledge they happen, but are fairly rare; only the misters actually embrace the practice!
Can’t be as hypnotic as this one: http://giffiles.alphacoders.com/272/2729.gif
Another (adorable) hypnobutt:
Like Shaenon, I was also once very close to Brad Pitt. He even said hello to me. Strangely it did not really have a tremendous impact on me emotionally. It was nice of him to say hi.
Bwahahah. Shortest “outrage” ever. Three whole comments, two of them trollin’.
Ignoring all the really terrible horribleness of Warren Farrell (nope nope nope) I can’t stand the obsession with Brad Pitt. He’s a person! That some straight women will be attracted to!
When I was young I disliked Brad Pitt as the generic pretty boy I was supposed to find attractive. Now I have watched Kalifornia and established he’s actually a massive weirdo I kind of love him. Still not attracted to him – not my type physically. How is this possible??? *irritation*
Haha, I didn’t read it that way at all but now you say it… 😀
Funny, I too have met Brad Pitt, and I too did not fall to pieces and collapse and abdicate all responsibility for myself. He seemed like a nice fella and not at all full of himself.
Hilariously every man in the building who realized Brad Pitt was there just about went to pieces in their efforts to say “Hey” in a casual-cool-bro way to him, quick upward head-nod, before rushing off to tell everyone they met Brad Pitt. Now, I don’t extrapolate from that experience that every man on the planet would react that way.
Just sayin.
Wow – a lot of people here have met The Pitt!
@cloudiah: Oh my god that wiggle is adorable!
On topic: Dang it, don’t know how to use reddit. I had so many questions to professor “Women Have Butts, Ergo Male Power is a Myth. Science!” Farrell, now that I’ve familiarized myself with his magnum opus (used in a very broad definition of the phrase).
Are you suggesting that rape equals a punch to the genitals? Mr. Farrell, are you even aware of what rape is? I’m inclined to think not, since later on, you write:
By making the claim that not getting to have sex after paying for dinner is the same thing as rape, you’re committing at least two wrongs:
1) You’re comparing the loss of a finite sum of money to an extremely traumatic experience that can leave one scarred for life. Or is that not as important as some dude not getting his dick wet?
2) You’re erasing the experience of male victims of date rape. Or are they not as important as some dude not getting his dick wet?
Also, regarding date rape not being the same thing as stranger rape:
Your redefinition doesn’t change anything. You’re still saying that by agreeing to a date, a woman makes the implicit promise to be sexual with the man. How is this anything but advice for women never to agree to a date?
What research is this based on? You don’t seem to cite any sources, yet you’re making a very important claim. This is a frequent problem in your book. Also, regarding the chapter as a whole, do you really believe it was successful men who freed women, rather than the women’s liberation movement and its successors? If so, how do you justify your claim that men are powerless, if they have the power to grant others power?
You refer to the fact that men are most likely to be victims of violence at the hands of other men. Fair enough, but how does this change anything? If the violence affecting men is caused by men, how is this a gender issue? Isn’t this “we” who teach men to victimize just another word for “other men”? Again, how is this proof of men not being powerful compared to women, if it’s men who perpetuate the image of man as the aggressor? Aren’t you ignoring other social factors, such as racism? Your logic does not add up.
Farrell likes the argument that men are victims because traditional gender roles. Yet he doesn’t suggest that maybe it’s the responsibility of men to redefine the idea of masculinity. No, instead it’s always the same old “wimminz aren’t being my personal mommy! Boo-hoo!”
I suppose most of my questions to Warren Farrell boil down to:
“Do you have any proof that your arse is a legitimate source, since you seem to refer to it fairly often?”
And also: “Mr Farrell, why are you such a shitty human being?”
You know, boys…er…men like Mr. Farrell are vampires – and not the sexy kind, either. They feed on the life energy and the attention they are able to get from the saner segments of society.
Would they all just starve and dry up if we utterly ignored them, or would they get increasingly frantic and throw bigger hissy fits? Either way, it could be entertaining.
Re: why he left NOW:
From what I understand (and I can’t recall the author of the study that found this), the main backlash against returning Vietnam soldiers was from… WWII vets. Who were mainly all men.
Oh please oh please do a follow-up post on this AMA! TyphonBlue’s response to your question there is absolutely priceless: http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/24accd/hi_im_warren_farrell_author_of_the_myth_of_male/ch55yrr
“He said all that incesty stuff when he was a feminist. Therefore feminists are pro-child abuse.”
Sweet David – the “N” word simply does not register with men like that. You could say “glazipfinorp” in place of “No” and they would still hear “yes.”
And when it finally DOES register, they hear it as hatred. What they want is the unconditional Mommy, with sex included. Mommy will wuv oo, and have sex with oo, forever…and never, NEVER ask for anything in return, will never age, and will always look JUST the way YOU want her to. Even if Mommy is your 10 year-old daughter.
Malignant narcissism. And every despot, tyrant and MRA in history suffers from the same disease. The world is here to serve his Himness, in every way and at all times. That is why they scream “Misandry,” and “Unfair!” whenever anyone thwarts them in any way.
I really do prefer 5 year-old kids. They are EVER so much more reasonable!
Question:
WF:
Yes, soooooooo truthy. When Busband cries in front of me, or shares his feelings, fears, concerns, insecurities, my nether regions completely close down and I start googling ‘Brat Pitt pics’.
*bangs head against wall*
OMGOMGyouguise. Warren Farrell’s middle name is Thomas. His initials are WTF.
I feel much better now.
Oh, that is PERFECT! Thanks…You made my week!
RE: Fibinachi
That exists?
YES!
RE: Cthulu’s Intern
Wait, there’s more than one?
Sorry, only one that I know of. 🙁
RE: Ally
Blaming women when men cheat on them – how convenient.
Wow, this sure reminds me of a troll we’re having…
RE: Hrovitnir
Hrovitnir! You’ve returned to us! I’m really excited to see you! How are things?
RE: Tracy
*SNORT* Okay, I’m okay with that.
Also, yeah, I hate the whole bullshit he just spewed about how women just see men’s talking as whining. My husband cries sometimes. He has a hard time sometimes. My urge is to hold him and comfort him, and I don’t think my own gender has anything to do with that! He’s my HUSBAND.