If you missed my talk at Northwestern on the Friend Zone, and most of you did, I go over a lot of what I said in it in my interview with Amanda Marcotte here. My segment of the podcast starts about 8 minutes in. (The rest of the podcast is interesting, too.)
The one thing missing from the podcast that my talk had was … a gazillion terrible Friend Zone memes to illustrate all my points. So here are a couple of the ones I refer to in the interview.
Oh, and may his toilet be blocked in the middle of the night when he has the runs and no plunger.
Your overshare was magical, WWTH.
Anyone on here use the cup who has trouble with tampons? I cannot make the damn things sit right or not be uncomfortable (I have very light bleeding BTW) so I’m a bit dubious about splashing out (heh) on a cup.
Doesn’t the cup sit in a different place from tampons?
http://s.quickmeme.com/img/ba/ba90866b5a98dec8d6f8bea366c0dfb4fb47403ee96c1a791ede495afec6d5c8.jpg
The cup is supposed to literally cup your cervix, or at least close to it. Typically insertion is easy cause you’re all bleedy, but if you have a light flow, using lube would probably help.
“And you are not obligated to, but if you did to someone who might be receptive (I know not all of them would be) it might me more effective at getting him to change his behavior than calling him names.”
Jesus, why do these guys think all women are potential life coaches? Man, sometimes we’re just trying to get through our day, keep ourselves on track, tending to our own personal problems. Now I have to coach someone I don’t even really know on how to score with women? Cripes, maybe I just stepped outside to get a carton of milk.
Work on yourself, dude. You sound so self-entitled you expect women to fix you out of the goodness of their hearts. That’s your job.
If I wanted to fix something up, I’d buy a house. Fixing some random self-absorbed dude isn’t even on the list.
We’re all supposed to spend out time standing on the sidelines of life with a plate of oranges and some towels, just in case a man needs our assistance and advice. Except when he wants to fuck us, then we’re supposed to roll over on our backs like a well trained dog.
I just caught the menstrual leave ask, grumpycatisagirl. I think I saw an article on Feministing earlier in the week, but I don’t know much about it.
When my periods were really bad from endometriosis before my surgery, I was able to use FMLA to call off of work separate from sick days or vacation days. Trouble is, they aren’t paid. So my job was secure, but I took a hit on that paycheck.
“racnad, if you are genuinely looking for advice on how to do better with women, guess, what? You’re actually getting lots of very good advice and information from this thread. Or you would be if you actually listened to some of what people here are saying to you.”
David,
the only advice on this thread for men who perceive a “friendzone” is to give up and abandon any expectation of being in a relationship because when they feel attraction for a woman it is creepy. (Isn’t that what the MGHOWers are doing?) Relationships and sex are only for the privileged guys. I’m old enough to know better but that’s the message you get when you feel you’re in it and it’s only re-enforced by the kind responses in this discussion.
Much of the bad of the behavior discussed here is due to young mens’ inexperience with the dynamics of dating and relationships. Unfortunately, being demonized and accused of being part of “rape culture” when all you want is girlfriend or wife like so many people around only re-enforces their feelings of victimization and makes them even more bitter toward women.
I understand women’s concern for safety, and it is completely reasonable for meet for the first few dates in public places until she is comfortable meeting him at her home or getting into a car with him.
Also when I was dating there were times we didn’t hit it off and I had no interest in a second date. I might say “Thanks for the evening.” But was careful not to say “I’ll call” or “let’s do this again” if I had no intention of doing. I find it disrespectful imply things I don’t mean, and I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect the same respect in return.
Thank you for providing a forum to express these thoughts. I only wish it was more about open and intelligent discussion and less about name calling and projecting sinister motives between the lines of different perspectives.
@racnad
I need a misogyny drinking game, cuz here I got to ‘feminism is creating misogynists’
Also, you do not understand that nobody owes you a romantic relationship. How many seperate ways do I have to spell that out for you?
“Great forum, but site for mocking misogyny had to much mocking of me, a misogynist”
It takes a toxic level of solipism to assume that ” the message you get when you feel you’re in it” is literally the same as what others are actually saying to you. Most people are able to grasp the idea that there is a difference between their own subjective feelings and what other people are actually doing or saying by the time they’re, what, 10 or so?
(It’s been a while since I read Piaget.)
Oh, boo-hoo.
This isn’t a dating site. What part of “mockery” is so hard for you to understand?
Lets review:
racnad on abuse:
Women who are abused are picking bad men. Nothing about how the abusers need to look at their behavior – it’s all about what women need to do.
Then this:
People are saying that the “friendzone” concept – the idea that men who are nice to women are owed sex and women are b*t hes to put men in the “friendzone” – is wrong and creepy. That no one is owed sex. That sex is not something that a person gets in return for being nice. That friendship with someone is a good and worthwhile thing in and of itself, not some kind of “shitty consolation prize.” Identifying this concept as part of a larger pattern of entitlement, boundary violations and victim blaming – rape culture* – is “crapping on men.”
Again, it’s not about women’s safety or feelings or boundaries or wishes. It’s about men’s feelings.
*I’m really simplifying rape culture here. There’s a lot more to it, but I don’t want this to turn into too much of a teal deer.
Then there’s this:
So? I don’t need to hang out with that guy, if he thinks all women are dishonest liars because some women let him down easy in the past in order to preserve his feelings. That guy sounds like an asshole.
A lot of guys seem to love treating feminist blogs as potential forums for discussion of their dating woes, presumably because of the whole woman = mommy thing.
You are correct sir! Any man who believes the ‘friendzone’ mythos is likely a creep and is better off avoiding relationships for the sake of the women he is targeting.
Men who don’t subscribe to the ‘friendzone’? Much more likely to be respectful, kind, and enjoyable company, and should totes keep dating.
I would also like to say, as an aside, that I’m sorry how heteronormative this entire conversation has been. In fact, just the idea that non-heterosexual relationships exist and non-hetero people can date successfully kinda blows troll boy’s entire whine out of the water.
**Sigh**
“Much of the bad of the behavior discussed here is due to young mens’ inexperience with the dynamics of dating and relationships.”
Well, sometimes it’s caused by misogyny — but for the clueless doofuses you mentioned, so what? They can learn, can’t they?
If you ever had only ONE guy get weird on you, you do things to not repeat the experience. People here already told you that, though. So you decided to be self-entitled again, and pretend there are no men in the world who already have the “non-creepy, non-self-entitled” software programming installed. Seriously, kid, not all men act threatening or pushy. So it’s a bit hateful for you to throw all dudes onto the same dysfunctional boat then claim women it’s women doing it. Look at what you wrote here — and take note, you don’t understand what rape culture is.
“Unfortunately, being demonized and accused of being part of “rape culture” when all you want is girlfriend or wife like so many people around only re-enforces their feelings of victimization and makes them even more bitter toward women.”
If we don’t accept all men, all the time and become their wives or girlfriends, if we don’t coddle your feelings and ignore our own discomfort, men are justified in hating women?
This is jaw-droppingly dense. If we don’t comply, something bad might happen, eh?
“I understand women’s concern for safety, and it is completely reasonable for meet for the first few dates in public places until she is comfortable meeting him at her home or getting into a car with him.”
Gee, thanks for your permission.
“Also when I was dating there were times we didn’t hit it off and I had no interest in a second date. I might say “Thanks for the evening.” But was careful not to say “I’ll call” or “let’s do this again” if I had no intention of doing. I find it disrespectful imply things I don’t mean, and I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect the same respect in return.”
You’re being childish and peevish again. You didn’t like a woman’s method of brushing you off? Dude, this is you biggest hardship? Grow-up. Disrespectful? Don’t be so dramatic. People are literally dumped or given the brush-off every day.
But but but, who’s the passive object who owes people sex and who is the person in this non-het scenario? I has a confused.
@fromafar
(IMO)there is not a need to apologize. I feel lots of it’s heteronomrativity is coming from trolls end.
I mean, I brought up not liking any guys, troll brushes off, LBT asks troll if he’s down with gay men oggling straight men, troll tries to say he’s not okay with anyone oggling anyone, then ditches not straight people and again asks women to mommy the dudes oggling us.
Sheesh you just keep doubling-down. Your entire point seems to boil down to women need to more forcefully (but not too forcefully heaven forfend!) say no. Is that really the biggest concern ever that you think is worthy of discussion?
I’ve totally been given a soft-no from a guy I’ve asked out. Who FREAKIN CARES!? Seriously, most people don’t want to hurt other people’s feelings. I sometimes give soft-nos even when I am not creeped out. I say, “I think we make better friends”, “I have a boyfriend”, “I don’t think it would work out, I’m just too busy”. I really don’t care how you want to be rejected, if you aren’t clear about what the rejection means just fucking ask. It’s not complicated. You act like this is an excuse to ignore her soft-no because you’re just not sure it really IS a no. There is a very simple solution, ask her and tell her you would like a straightfoward no nonsense answer and she will probably give it to you. If she doesn’t move-the-fuck-on.
LBT could be like “I am a gay man, would it be OK if I randomly offered to suck your cock?” and he’d be all “women respond too aggressively when men randomly ask them to suck our cocks, and this is why men are bitter and angry”.
Eh, classic “Nice Guy” ™ bullshit. So what is he getting by staying here? What does he want us to say?
Something like, “You poor little boo. Women are such meanies. Sure, you disregard a woman’s experience — but women should look past all that and love you anyway.”
I think you’re right about placement but my experience is “try and get [tampon] as far up as possible, still feel the damn thing, hurt like hell when I take it out”. Lube is an excellent idea, and I’ve had it suggested for tampons too, but have got really avoidant about even trying.
Will continue to umm and ahh about the cup. Stupid stupid bleeding.
Some tampons also have applicators that can make them easier to insert. Like these.
http://www.walmart.com/ip/Tampax-Pearl-Plastic-Super-Absorbency-Scented-Tampons-36-Count/10313892?action=product_interest&action_type=title&placement_id=irs_middle&strategy=PWVUB&visitor_id=76715422445&category=0%3A976760%3A1005862%3A1001493&client_guid=574b044f-faca-46fe-b6ea-3d211727424a&config_id=2&parent_item_id=10313888&guid=2b4dd9d0-b019-4eb4-8702-70ed2c63f2d4&bucket_id=irsbucketdefault&findingMethod=p13n
Might be worth a try?
The advice is pretty much don’t be an asshole and expect sex in return for being nice. Guys who think like that? Yeah, they need to grow up. And yeah, not feeling a lot of pity for them not having girlfriends.
Oh, bullshit, no one’s saying that. Pure self-pitying bullshit.
Yes, behavior in which men do not respect women’s boundaries and act as if they are owed attention/sex/a relationship from a woman is being rightly demonized. This behavior is wrong and needs to change. It is not the job of women everywhere to hold men’s hands to change their behavior.
And yes, this is a really heteronormative conversation, but I don’t think racnad can wrap his head around the fact that there are people who are not heterosexual.