If you missed my talk at Northwestern on the Friend Zone, and most of you did, I go over a lot of what I said in it in my interview with Amanda Marcotte here. My segment of the podcast starts about 8 minutes in. (The rest of the podcast is interesting, too.)
The one thing missing from the podcast that my talk had was … a gazillion terrible Friend Zone memes to illustrate all my points. So here are a couple of the ones I refer to in the interview.
Truly, women are Rubik’s Cubes that refuse to tell men how to solve us, because we just enjoy torturing them so much.
But David, what about a solution that makes everything different but doesn’t require Rancor to change in any way? We haven’t provided THAT, ergo, feminism don’t work.
Oo, gonna read the rest of this soon but must reply!
It’s not *advice*, it’s examples of the kind of behaviour that most women have learnt to be sensitive to. No one is here to advise you: but if you read feminist blogs out of interest there are plenty of times when people discuss harassment and when/how/why it makes them uncomfortable.
Yes and no. Yes, shockingly, women are individuals with different tastes! Contrary to popular opinion though, very few women label men approaching them that they’re not attracted to as “creepy” – almost all women will label men they have rejected refusing to leave them alone as creepy. Because that’s what creepiness is – refusing to respect boundaries.
Nope, I don’t care if “most women” expect men to make the first move. That is a meme that needs to die, not be fed. If you know that women are being creeped out by you, you need to figure out why and change it, or stop approaching women. Because if you consistantly “creep out” women (that means scare, by the way. It means they afraid you are a risk to them) and can’t figure out why, you don’t get to keep scaring women in the hopes you’ll get your rocks off.
No, this is a total lie that we mock. “Women” do not label men as creeps because they’re not attracted to them. Some women who are jerks might. But creepiness is refusing to leave someone alone – and yeah, someone you find attractive you might not want to leave you alone. Surprise!
There is no way of painting the “Friendzone” that doesn’t mean: I don’t actually want to be your friend and resent you if you are not interested in me romantically or sexually. I was lying about being your friend because I don’t actually care about your thoughts and feelings if I don’t get anything from it. If you don’t like a woman as a friend, ask her out and if she says no, leave her alone. It’s that simple.
“Understanding humans’ needs is haaaaaaard… cater more to ME, women! CATER TO ME!”
Case in point: James Franco, who is considered super-duper attractive by literally millions of women, recently got called out as a creep when he behaved in a creepy way towards a too-young fan, who was herself creeped out by his behavior, even though she was a fan of his and presumably found him attractive.
Or take me. My most recent creeper was a dude I met while exercising in the park. We talked about becoming workout buddies, he mentioned he was married. All good, right? We trade phone numbers so as to arrange workout meet-ups. I then walk home.
He contacts me THREE TIMES before I make it back.
THAT is creepy. It doesn’t matter what he looked like, because it’s totally irrelevant. His ACTIONS were creepy. Not his face.
The creepiest dude I ever worked with was ridiculously good looking (and rich, athletic, from a good university, blahbity blah blah). He also kind of reminded me of the main character in American Psycho. Oddly enough his handsome face didn’t in any way improve the bugs crawling all over the back of your neck feeling that I got whenever I found myself alone in a room with him.
My rapist looked like some bishounen from a shoujo manga. Funny how that didn’t make him any less rapey.
“I think some women expect to be asked out but if most of us see a person we *really* wanna go out with we’ll ask them ourselves. I also think guys use the “most women expect guys to ask them out” as an excuse to be creepy, like you do.”
Thank you. This may be the first response that wasn’t name calling or twisting what I wrote into something I didn’t write.
I believe that men who are found very attractive by many women are often asked out, but in the experience of myself and many other men, we are rarely asked out, although we may get the vibe that someone wants us to ask them out – which may be accurate or a misreading of her non-verbal communication.
In the experience of many men, waiting for women to ask us our is like managing our careers by waiting for job offers to drop out of the blue. It sometimes happens, but one must take the initiative to be in control both our personals lives and our professional lives. And I think this is good advice for both men and women.
I am NOT saying this as an excuse to harass or creep out anyone. It is important to be respectful when getting an answer that is not the one we’d like to hear. I understand that those lack maturity may not react well, but I don’t think that’s a valid to treat someone disrespectfully when they have not treated you disrespectfully.
Expecting women to coddle your feelings and reject you in exactly the way that you’d be most comfortable with as if you were a toddler and they were your mommy is treating them disrespectfully.
@racnad
DUde. Third time, at least. STICK TO THE FLOUNCE. Or at least flounce creatively each time you leave, so I can have entertainment.
Also, nobody owes it to you to date them. People need jobs, if they can get them, so they can have money to fucking live. Which is why (in theory, not practice, as discussed in other threads) there are ways to get help if you can’t work. So you can fucking survive.
Dating isn’t like that. But nice try.
God, troll is so tiresome. Mix it up a little, Racnad, will you?
RE: racnad
You still haven’t answered my question. Am I allowed to ogle you or not? Why should I believe anything you say?
WHY ARE YOU STILL HERE?
If you’re as much a clueless dipshit out there as you are here, I can see why you’re not asked out.
“Why is it so important to you that you get a hard no when you’ve been told we feel safer giving a soft no?
Maybe you get shut down because you consider your minor needs to be more important than the major needs of the women you want to date. Not because women want douchebags. After all, you’re one and you still get nos.”
Early in my dating life a woman I thought liked me said something like “I’m busy this weekend maybe next week.” The next week I asked her again and she said much the same thing. A few weeks later, the same thing, so I asked her when she would not be so busy. She became upset with me for not “taking the hint.”
When I like a women I like to assume she’s being straight forward and honest with me, so I felt upset for being made the bad guy for assuming she was straight forward and honest rather than immediately assuming she was lying. BTW, these conversations were over the telephone so there was no immediate possibility of physical violence, even if I were so inclined.
And those times when I was told unambiguously “No, thank you” I respected her and wished her the best. The solution is for both parties to treat the other with respect, not to treat people with disrespect, which understandably does create hard feelings.
if she did it more than once there’s a high chance she WAS telling you to fuck off politely. and you didn’t take the hint.
Oo, yes, the idea that a man regarded as stereotypically attractive (or attractive to the individual straight woman but that’s not usually how it’s presented) can’t be creepy makes me throw things.
1. I think part of the reason I find very normatively attractive men personally unattractive on first blush (obviously if I know them it can change) is because I associate them with being extra able to get away with repulsive behaviour.
2. It’s not confusing that other stuff in someone’s life can mean someone’s not interested in sleeping with someone they find super attractive – and if that person pushes the boundaries it’s suuper creepy.
Perhaps not the best example, but I had the biggest crush on my high school biology teacher. He was in his early thirties and I was 16 (age of consent in NZ btw, and I was sexually active with my boyfriend). For reasons that ended up out in the open (trust me, this whole thing wasn’t as weird as it sounds); we got on really well, and we would talk for ages in his office. Even though I was dying of horniness of course, it would be beyond repulsive if he had acted sexually interested in me.
“Rapists are crapped on too much? What wonderland are you in?”
No, rapists deserve jail time, and I’ll agree with all of you that not enough of them are getting it. But I am not talking about rapists.
the term rape culture doesn’t really crap on anyone except rapists and people who support rape culture. you were acting like it craps on all men. :/
RE: racnad
And those times when I was told unambiguously “No, thank you” I respected her and wished her the best.
Weren’t you the one saying a loud NO! might make you uncomfortable? I don’t think you like “unambiguous no” as much as you say you do.
Here, I’ma tell you a story. I don’t expect you to respond, because you still won’t answer any questions I give you.
I was working out in the park when a guy approached me. He seemed nice, and mentioned wanting to work out with me. So we exchanged phone numbers, and I go to walk home.
He contacted me THREE TIMES before I made it home. And I didn’t stop on the way. He asked me if I wanted to hang out, if I wanted to do something, where I’d gotten my phone area code from.
You know what I said to him?
“I can’t. I’m working tonight.”
Spoiler: I wasn’t working that night. But this was a dude who had called me three times within an hour of meeting me. How do I know he won’t flip his shit when I say, “No, I won’t hang out with you, stop calling me incessantly?”
You’re talking like HE’S the wronged party here, when he’s the one who CALLED ME THREE TIMES within an hour of meeting me.
Oh, PLUS he told me I was married. With kids. I was wearing my wedding band.
@racnad
You should have taken the fucking hint.
~still not women’s job to pander to your feelings~
So go talk to men who don’t respect women’s boundries, and are the reason women lie. Go talk to men who get violent when rejected. Don’t expect women to ditch strategies that help them when men are.
then who are you talking about?
actually it doesn’t crap on anyone. it’s just a term. that can be used to express systematic inequalities and the effect of the patriarchy and people supporting rapists.
“I’m a gay man. Do I get to stare at your crotch and drool until you politely tell me to stop?”
No, and straight men should not stare and drool at women’s chests either. I understand that happens way too often, but I never suggested that sort of thing is OK.
Racnad at 5:40
racnad now:
we can read what you said, you know. We can read that you suggested women should tell of men for staring at our chests b/c otherwise they might stare at the chest of the next woman they meat.
racnad, go wank about your feels somewhere else. No one here cares that you can’t get a date.