If you missed my talk at Northwestern on the Friend Zone, and most of you did, I go over a lot of what I said in it in my interview with Amanda Marcotte here. My segment of the podcast starts about 8 minutes in. (The rest of the podcast is interesting, too.)
The one thing missing from the podcast that my talk had was … a gazillion terrible Friend Zone memes to illustrate all my points. So here are a couple of the ones I refer to in the interview.
Racnad- women aren’t goddamn mind readers. They don’t know whether you’re the sort of asshole who gets pissy and violent when told a straight no or if you’re someone who will whine about them being unclear because they didn’t fill out forms a through z of ‘turning down a romantic proposal’ and do the approved mating rejection dance.
Expecting women to magically be able to know what particular code will make you respect their decision, back down, and not get angry is disingenuous and victim blame-y. Also, most people who press that line generally mean “women should know how to phrase their answer in the correct way. The only right answer is ‘yes'”.
racnad: For the umpteenth time, no one should have sex or a relationship with anyone they don’t want sex or a relationship with. I suggested offering advice but that’s not the same thing as suggested they date or sleep with someone they don’t like.
Dude… that’s a relationship. It’s a fairly intimate one. I’m not gonna tell strangers how to fix the flaws/failures in their personality. I’m sure as hell not going to do it with a person I’m not interested in.
Rememeber the bit where, “women give off the impression they are interested”… guaranteed that giving a guy “advice” on how to get a date is gonna get seen as interest.
If she doesn’t want to talk to him, then she doesn’t want to talk to him. If she doesn’t want to date him, then she sure as fuck doesn’t owe him, “tips” on how to date.
There are plenty of dating advice blogs out there, but most of them aimed “nice guys” who perceive a friendzone are the ones know as the seduction community or PUAs. That would open another can of worms here because many of them (thought not all) are misogynist. And the worst ones are really awful and disrespectful toward women. So I’d thought I’d plant a suggestion for someone to write “A Feminists Guide to Building Successful Healthy Respectful Romantic Relationships with Women without being Creepy.”
How cute… you think you had an original idea. Nope. It’s so old it’s got moss on the north side. Worse, you got advice on how to not be creepy. You blew it off. Which is creepy.
After all, if someone feels repeatedly friendzoned, it’s obvious they’re doing it wrong
Yep… they are pretending they have a right not be unwanted for sex. Sucks to be them.
I did NOT say that it is the responsibility of any specific person here.
No, not “any specific person”, but you did say that if we/feminists don’t stop to think about the poor dudes boners they deserve to be harassed. Not in so many words, but the “win-win”: of “fewer frustrated dudes, and fewer harassed women” draws a clear line from A to B.
No, other then neither of them being fun they are not equivalent.
Then don’t equate them. Fewer “frustrated dudes” shouldn’t be required for less harassment of women. But you seem to think they go hand in hand, and that some woman, somewhere, needs to hand out better advice than the advice you are getting. What’s the matter with it? It works.
Oh, right, that advice boils down to, “don’t harass women”. For some reason you are resistant to that advice.
Why do people on this blog read things into my words I’m not saying?
We don’t Why do you refuse to see what the consequences of your reasoning imply and demand.
“Men need accept that women can say no.”
I agree and I never said otherwise.
Such a charming fib. You said women need to say no in a way you approve of. You pretend that the study showing men ignore no, in the context of wanting to fuck, is somehow limited to straight up come-ons, not to people refusing to accept an obvious lack of interest as… an obvious lack of interest. You want women to say no in, “an obvious way”, because you will respect it (even as you admit some men won’t). You say that women can expect to be disbelieved, because some women have told lies.
But you refuse accept that women might not want to use those, “obvious” denials because some men are violent when they are turned down directly. LBT tells of a dude who harassed him with phone calls not ten minutes after they met. Do you wonder that I have an ex-girlfriend who memorised the local police number so she could give it to men when they hit on her?
Of course you do. I am sure you would say she was leading them on, not being honest. Well her creepdar had been set of. It had been tuned by idjit who refused to take anything less than a “fuck you jack” as a no. It’s why she carried a stun gun.
But you, Mr. Special Snowflake, you want all of that tossed out the window. You, it seems, are a paragon. You respect women (except that you don’t take no for an answer, because they don’t say it in the way you deem proper). You think women ought to be more accomodating of men who harass them. who else is the target of your, “community service” to reduce harassment? If the harassment goes down when the “frustrated” dudes get laid, then you are saying women need to get men laid to reduce harassment. Nope. If dudes want to get laid, they can stop harassing. That’s the direction that quid pro quo should go. You, of course, have flipped it, so it’s on the women to stop the harassment; but getting assholes laid.
But those assholes you call, “nice guys”, who “just don’t understand what women want.” Guess what… if they don’t understand what women want, it’s fine for those women to turn them down.
I wish I couldn’t believe that you would continue to ignore what is actually said, in the pursuit of the idea people here aren’t treating you fairly.
What has been said (with studies to back it up) is that we have an entire language of No. I said, even as you pretend to quote me” that a single instance of that isn’t always a no, but that a pattern is; and that so long as someone isn’t making plans and breaking them, you’ve got no beef.
They said, “no”, to each instance. They didn’t cause you to make plans, and then leave you hanging. You asked a question, you got a (negative) answer. You didn’t get the, “no, creep, I never want to have sex with you” that you were looking for, but that’s life.
Sort of like a prospective employer who says, “we’ll get back to you”. We know they usually won’t.
So you missed out on what might have been a good relationship out of fear of looking like a creep. Would expressing your desire to be more than friends in a way that respects her boundaries have been creepy? Why should creepiness be a risk when doing that?
Were you paying attention? No, of course not. I wasn’t getting positive feedback. I was taking her lack of overt desire for a lack of desire. I was respecting her boundaries. I also pointed out that we were spending time together in the shower; naked. I was scrubbing her back, she was scrubbing mine.
If you can’t see that being pushy under those circumstances might be creepy… you are hopeless.
Most guys would disagree. Men who are found attractive by a large number of women find sex easy to come by, most men don’t.
Dude… it’s not that I’ve found sex, “easy to come by”, it’s that I’ve treated women well, and they have done the same. It’s that I’ve not treated them as an object. It’s not that I’m some Apollonian figure of pure sex appeal. I’ve struck out a lot. Not perhaps as much as some, because I don’t tend to presume, “I’m in there”, but look for some sense of reciprocated interest. And when I get that sense of reciprocation, I ask if she’s interested. If she doesn’t say yes, I treat it as a no.
And it works. But you choose to dismiss my advice (even after specifically asking for it), because you’d rather keep being creepy, and striking out.
p.s. You have a non-hostile thoughtful response
You mistake a lack of abusive language as a lack of hostility. You might want to work on reading for content and tone, rather than looking for swearing.
My thoughts exactly, sparky.
And now I’m off to do immensely more interesting things than watch rancid defend his ‘friendzone’ sand castle while the tide comes in.
Hey rancid! We. See. You.
Again: you started it. You haven’t shown any courtesy to us, but you think we’re obligated to respond politely to your rudeness. Entitled much?
*raises hand* Ooh, I know!
PS: I am not calling him ‘rancid’ on purpose, autocorrect did that! LOL, thanks autocorrect!
I am now late for work, but this requires a response:
You utter fuckhead.
You just made a “yes but” reply to people being killed, and then said that isn’t good evidence to support women being afraid of the reaction to them turning someone down.
So what, if they were killed after saying, “Sorry, but I’m going to the prom with my boyfriend” that’s different from, “Sorry, I don’t want to go to the prom with you?”
On what planet is this even possible to argue? What does it matter the form the rejection took? If it “clear”, or “soft” the asshole killed her.
You just argued that being killed for rejecting someone is only relevant if the rejection was made, “the wrong way”. So what.. the attacker wouldn’t have done it if…
There was no possibility of, “romance” in the future?
Or if there was?
Which of those makes it somehow ambiguous that rejecting men is dangerous?
And now, being late to work, I have to run, so others will have to explain just how fuckheadedly stupid you are.
False equivalency. Your risk of being verbally or sexually assaulted while volunteering at a food shelf or nursing home is minute. The risk of a woman being verbally or sexually assaulted while taking aside and trying to educate a man who is behaving in a creepy or harassing manner is too high to risk.
By the way, I wouldn’t feel safe having this conservation with you in person. You have shown again and again that you are unwilling to listen to women, unwilling to accept our boundaries, and put your own preferences for getting rejected to your exact specifications over our sense of comfort and safety. As evidenced by this statement:
We have told you over and over that in our experience, the best way to reject a man without being verbally or physically assaulted is to give a soft no and get out of there quickly. But you didn’t listen and you don’t care. You only care about you.
To go back to the point LBT was making last night, if a gay man who is much bigger than you comes up to you and stares at your crotch, stands too close to you, says things you find inappropriate; what would you do? Would you really try to give him a “how not to be a creep” lesson? Or would you do or say whatever you had to do to get away safely? Maybe even including a soft no.
“By the way, I wouldn’t feel safe having this conservation with you in person…”
Boy, I second that.
What exactly is the point of writing a guide for men on how not to be creepy when every bit of clear advice given here on such is repeatedly rejected? It’s as if what is wanted is not so much a guide as a scapegoat: see, I acted creepy because your guide didn’t address this very specific situation in a way that was satisfactory to me and my boner! I would think that was too cynical, but I have read this thread.
And may I say, to the invocation, once again, of the socially-inept male – try growing up as a socially-inept female, at a time when Asperger’s (yes, I know, no longer the official term, but one that people generally understand) wasn’t so much recognized in girls. We live down the street from a high school. I structure my day so I’m not walking down the sidewalk when the high school lets out, because being around that many teenagers is still too stressful, thirty years later. It also makes me sort of aghast at these “friendzoning” complaints: apparently some men are complaining that multiple women value them as friends. How is it possible to value friendship that lightly? I have three or four friends, more or less, apart from online – it is difficult for me to make new friends – might be nice to have more, but unlikely to happen. I am not complaining of this. I consider myself lucky in the friends I have. This idea that friendship is some sort of consolation prize for romantic losers is ghastly.
@racnad
Said directly: maybe not. Implied: Hel yeah. Learn to read what you write.
:chug:: and we hit the ableism card.
SEriously, why do you, an entitled man, feel the need to distance yourself from other entitled men?
Wow so caling you a misogynist is calling you names now. What’s worse is,you could have actually found a quote of me calling you a name, since I’m sure I’ve done it, but you went with ‘those ebil womens call me a misogynist’.
@katz
SO cute! 😀
@racnad
whoops, I hope the blockquote mammoth liked that snack…
@racnad
WEll, I expect people not to be misogynists as a common courtesy.
Fuck politeness. I’d rather people not be hateful.
Ok, so I have to go to sleep now, but look what I found after a couple seconds of googling. Like, literally, the top couple results of searching “how to not be a creep.” And these resources are just out there for anyone who is sincerely interested in not being a creep to find, rather than demanding that some random woman somewhere pull creepy guys aside and explain to them how their behavior is creepy:
Dr. Nerdlove
The Pervocracy
Scalzi
Let’s try posting the Dr. Nerdlove link again:
http://www.doctornerdlove.com/2014/03/how-to-not-be-creepy/
@sparky
But if you provide racnad with resources, he’ll lose his ‘plausible’ excuse to troll! And that’d be terrible!
i’m just laughing at racnad quoting marie (when she called him a misogynist) and acting like it’s a horrible insult. Sexist people always wanna be sexist but i you dare call them it they’re like “NOOOOOOOOOOo you are insulting me why can’t you be CIVIL like me??!??”
Re; the “maybe some other time” thing…
I’m pretty sure if she *actually* wanted to go out with you she wouldn’t say “maybe some other time” but “what about thursday?” or whatever to indicate when she *is* available. Or at least talk about rescheduling
racnad
ffs
i have never been laid. i’m bisexual* I could live my ENTIRE LIFE without getting laid. I have managed three plus years of feeling sexual stuff and not exploding from sexual desire.
Getting harrassed is waaaaaaaaaaaay less fun.
i know you’re saying they’re not equivalent, but earlier you were *implying* that they were. and you might still be; i haven’t finished reading your comment.
anyway, i could live my entire life w/o having sex but i could not live my entire life being harrassed. get a clue.
*saying b/c it’s not like i have a desire to never get laid.
lol are you suggesting women coddling men and nicely telling them to not be creeps is equivalent to volunteer work? It’s equivalent to banging your head against the wall, jackass.**
**see – an actual insult. misogynist may be frustrating if you feel like you aren’t one, but your first thing to do should be MAKING SURE YOU’RE NOT BEING MISOGYNISTIC, not whining that people are personally attacking you.
pecunium: I didn’t want to antagonize my friend on accident.
Racnad: BUT YOU MIGHT HAVE GOTTEN LAID BRO
neway i’m not caught up but i’m posting now b/c this is getting long
@fade
Yup. Pecunium gave an example not what to do if you aren’t sure if you’ll be creepy and it flew straight over rancid’s head.
It gives me the shudders that while we were futilely explaining to Rancid about male entitlement and what constitutes creepy behavior a “Nice Guy” was shooting up a college campus at the very same moment.
*vomits*
I’ll be sure to bring that up if he comes creeping back.
@weirdwoodtreehugger
Fuck someone’s shooting up a college campus??
I should not have watched that shooter’s video. At least I stayed out of the comments.
Marie, it’s in the comments on the most recent WHTM post. DON’T WATCH THE VIDEO (unless you have a very strong stomach for a “nice guy” preemptively justifying terrible violence against women & bystanders).
@cloudiah
K. Guess I’m going to see it. (The thread, not the video.)
@sparky
yes, he did. b/c he loves being intentionally obtuse and creeping.
racnad
“I know women fear violence but why not do exactly what i want instead?”
wait, so you CAN understand courtesy things and saying stuff even if you don’t feel like it? Say it isn’t so? So why can’t you understand the “common courtesy” people often employ by telling white lies to avoid things they don’t want?
I mean, isn’t it better we be rude to you to tell you how we feel? that way there is none of that pesky ambiguousity you fear!!
Oh, do you mean you understand courtesy when it benefits you, but not when it doesn’t? What a shocker!
Shit, there’s a new shooting? When I was googling examples of violence from rejected men for Racnad, I saw something about a school shooting, but I thought it was about Marc Lepine 🙁
“Question though, racnad: If a man is not sure about a woman’s soft no, then what’s stopping him from asking for clarification?”
Since I’ve been asked “Why is it women’s job to help men get laid?” I’ll ask “Why should men have for ask for clarification? Why can’t women just be clear?”
Or to put it another way…
If it is insulting to ask a women if no really means no, then why should a man need to ask if a maybe in the future means maybe in the future.
To be honest, I’ve felt that asking a woman is she’s really busy is awkward because it is accusing her of lying. When I have “asked for clarification,” the conversations were awkward because I have put her on the spot and forced her to say what she was uncomfortable saying.
Do the women reading this really want to be asked “Are you really busy or do you have no interest in dating me?”