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entitlement evil sexy ladies friend zone misogyny nice guys rape culture

Check out my interview about the dreaded Friend Zone on Amanda Marcotte's Reality Check Podcast

Like video games, the friend zone is not real.
Like video games, the friend zone is not real.

If you missed my talk at Northwestern on the Friend Zone, and most of you did, I go over a lot of what I said in it in my interview with Amanda Marcotte here. My segment of the podcast starts about 8 minutes in. (The rest of the podcast is interesting, too.)

The one thing missing from the podcast that my talk had was … a gazillion terrible Friend Zone memes to illustrate all my points. So here are a couple of the ones I refer to in the interview.

if-you-spend-40and-hours-a-week-in-friend-zone_a

fzfPersonalityconsolationprize

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fromafar2013
10 years ago

I kinda want to try to explain polyamory to rancid… Think his head might explode?

Meh, seeing as how he may stick this flounce, I’m off to bed.

Fade
10 years ago

Unfortunately, being demonized and accused of being part of “rape culture” when all you want is girlfriend or wife like so many people around only re-enforces their feelings of victimization and makes them even more bitter toward women.

when all you want is a girlfriend or wife. like they’re things

jeez do you say anything that *doesn’t* radiate misogyny

weirwoodtreehugger
10 years ago

Hey everyone, I think I found a better resource of our troll.
http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/94/c7/2a/94c72aadf5346a1257eab7028feb143b.jpg

Marie
Marie
10 years ago

@weirdwoodtreehugger

That’s hilarious XD

katz
10 years ago

Truly, women are Rubik’s Cubes

A really dextrous person can finish one in seconds.

Seeing as how the trip is specifically designed to be a four day sex marathon without any cats or dogs around to jump up on the bed or sit on the dresser and stare awkwardly

*Preemptive fistbump*

OMG, those are the worst! Mine are like, constipated? diarrhea? constipNOPEDIARRHEA. I’m like, make up your freaking mind!

Ugh, I HATE the period shits! When I started getting those I was like “I’m leaking out of the wrong hole!”

alternatesteve90
10 years ago

@Fade: Seconding that, btw. That really sucks. =(

emilygoddess
emilygoddess
10 years ago

It would seem the result would be a win-win – fewer frustrated men and fewer creeps to harassing women.

So you’re going with “it’s women’s responsibility to make men not harass them”? Really?

And dude, there’s literally thousands of dating advice blogs and books out there. Why do you think this blog is obligated to spoonfeed it to you?

(Don’t bother, I know the answer)

if he isn’t the type of man considered attractive by a large percentage of women, then he has a larger risk of being perceived as creepy as a man who is seen as attractive by a large percentage of women.

FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU. I am so fucking sick of this bullshit, it makes me so goddamn angry. Take your gaslighting and your asstruths and fuck off.

emilygoddess
emilygoddess
10 years ago

You also shouldn’t assume that creepers and harassers are all incels. That isn’t necessarily true. Men who harass are doing it because they like to assert power over others. Not because they’re sexually frustrated.

Nah, that’s just why Racnad does it.

They’ve taking a word that humorously referred to unrequited love and redefined it as meaning “any woman I like is obligated to have sex with me!” I have never believed that and no one I know has thought that way.

And the experiences of countless women who will tell you they have been treated precisely that way by men…those stories don’t matter, because it doesn’t apply to you. You have a serious “listening to women” problem and it might be related to your “women don’t like me” problem.

many women will date douches if there’s something about him that triggers romantic attraction.

OH MY GOD, are you even real?

No, that is a “white lie” but still a lie which teaches men to not take what women tell them at face value and places the burden on them to figure out if the woman he’s talking to is being truthful or not. What’s wrong with honesty in relationships?

http://www.deathandtaxesmag.com/219665/16-year-old-girl-stabbed-to-death-after-turning-down-a-prom-invitation/

http://www.annarbor.com/news/crime/ann-arbor-man-allegedly-beats-woman-who-rejected-him-man-who-tried-to-defend-her/

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/03/14/texas-man-accused-brutal-13-day-assault/

http://bettyconfidential.com/ar/ld/a/Woman-Assaulted-in-Bar-After-Rejecting-Mans-Advances.html

And that’s just the first page of Google results.

emilygoddess
emilygoddess
10 years ago

Oh wow, I just realized I’m like 200 comments behind. Y’all have been busy tonight!

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
10 years ago

It was a good day to be playing whack-a-troll, between him and Kate.

emilygoddess
emilygoddess
10 years ago

I haven’t even gotten to Kate yet, I just finished the Retha Saga. I logged on during a break at work, and there were like 300 new comments in my inbox!

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
10 years ago

That’s why I don’t get comments sent to me via email. When a thread blows up it really blows up.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
10 years ago

The Kate Saga is less interesting though. Basically, female misogynist meets male misogynist, gets married, dislocates shoulder patting self on back.

katz
10 years ago

It sometimes happens, but one must take the initiative to be in control both our personals lives and our professional lives.

I knew control was coming into this sooner or later.

the only advice on this thread for men who perceive a “friendzone” is to give up and abandon any expectation of being in a relationship because when they feel attraction for a woman it is creepy. (Isn’t that what the MGHOWers are doing?)

That’s what MGTOW say they are doing and never actually do. And it’s what we are constantly encouraging them to do.

Also when I was dating there were times we didn’t hit it off and I had no interest in a second date. I might say “Thanks for the evening.” But was careful not to say “I’ll call” or “let’s do this again” if I had no intention of doing. I find it disrespectful imply things I don’t mean, and I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect the same respect in return.

Look, I know the “I do X for other people and I expect them to return the same courtesy to me” logic sounds sound, but it doesn’t actually work. First, not everyone in the universe knows that that’s what you expect. Second, what seems nice and courteous to you may not seem that way to someone else (eg, I’m positive that there are people who actively prefer a “I’ll call you” line to a rejection). And third, no matter how objectively reasonable it is, no one has the right to force someone into an implicit social contract: Unless you have a prior stated agreement, your doing something never carries the requirement that someone else do something in return.

katz
10 years ago

About lying to let people down easier: Forget dating, doesn’t everyone do this all the time? If I’m talking to a contractor or supplier who is clearly not the right fit for my project, I still say “I’ll call you if I’m interested,” not “sorry, I’m definitely going with someone else.” When the JWs show up at my door, I thank them for their time, I don’t say “your stupid magazine is going straight in the recycling.” And so on.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
10 years ago

Someone handed me some religious pamphlet/magazine thingy when I was sitting at an outdoor cafe a while back and I just took it, smiled, and said thanks, rather than telling her that I’m an atheist and will never come to Jesus and/or follow the various other life advice that was in the pamphlet. Was I supposed to get into an argument with her in the name of truth and honest communication? Because she was elderly, didn’t speak very much English, and seemed nice enough, and I was brought up not to yell and elderly people who try to give me things even if I don’t actually want the things they’re giving me.

emilygoddess
emilygoddess
10 years ago

Fade, I really appreciate your little dialogues. They do a good job of illustrating why people are wrong.

Racnad, go read CreepyPMs for numerous examples of men reacting badly to rejection.

http://www.reddit.com/r/creepyPMs/

I’ve heard the same from countless women.

Pffft, women’s actual experiences aren’t evidence, David!

Truly, women are Rubik’s Cubes that refuse to tell men how to solve us, because we just enjoy torturing them so much.

Next time I see a Rubik’s Cube shirt, I’ll buy it and think of you, because this is perfect.

but in the experience of myself and many other men, we are rarely asked out

I haven’t been asked out in years. What was this supposed to prove, again?

The solution is for both parties to treat the other with respect, not to treat people with disrespect, which understandably does create hard feelings.

WE. ARE. RISKING. VIOLENCE. You are risking being lied to. THEY ARE NOT EQUIVALENT.

Have you considered that your epic-level self-centeredness might be part of your dating problem?

I think part of the reason I find very normatively attractive men personally unattractive on first blush (obviously if I know them it can change) is because I associate them with being extra able to get away with repulsive behaviour.

OMG yes this. I’m way more suspicious of conventionally-attractive men.

I’m a shitmonster the first day of my period. I hear it’s common, the release of some hormone causes it.

Huh, I always thought it was the cramps, ’cause all those muscles are connected.

the only advice on this thread for men who perceive a “friendzone” is to give up and abandon any expectation of being in a relationship because when they feel attraction for a woman it is creepy.

Yeah, you really don’t listen to women at all, do you?

I only wish it was more about open and intelligent discussion

We have intelligent discussions all the time. If you ever get around to saying something intelligent, you’ll get to see one.

Ally S
10 years ago

the only advice on this thread for men who perceive a “friendzone” is to give up and abandon any expectation of being in a relationship because when they feel attraction for a woman it is creepy.

Where the hell did you get that from?

racnad
racnad
10 years ago

“It takes a toxic level of solipism to assume that ” the message you get when you feel you’re in it” is literally the same as what others are actually saying to you. Most people are able to grasp the idea that there is a difference between their own subjective feelings and what other people are actually doing or saying by the time they’re, what, 10 or so?”

An exception would be many of the people on this forum who have repeatedly attacked me for saying things I never said, like…

“Also, you do not understand that nobody owes you a romantic relationship. How many seperate ways do I have to spell that out for you?”

You don’t need to because I never said or implied that anyone owes anyone else sex or a romantic relationship. Maybe a small number frustrated socially mal-adjusted misfits do, but I never even remotely suggested that, nor does any sane person.

“”Thank you for providing a forum to express these thoughts. I only wish it was more about open and intelligent discussion and less about name calling and projecting sinister motives between the lines of different perspectives.

“Great forum, but site for mocking misogyny had to much mocking of me, a misogynist”

Thank you for providing an example by calling me names again.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
10 years ago

Shorter racnad…

weirwoodtreehugger
10 years ago

You don’t need to because I never said or implied that anyone owes anyone else sex or a romantic relationship. Maybe a small number frustrated socially mal-adjusted misfits do, but I never even remotely suggested that, nor does any sane person.

You did imply that if we don’t dispense free dating and sex advice we only have ourselves to blame for harassment, you implied that it’s our fault for being harassed because we don’t coddle the feelings of creeps enough, you blamed the victims in abusive relationships,you’ve drawn false equivalencies between the threat of rape and being lied to and now you’ve equated mental illness with being an asshole.

Stop playing the victim.

This is a site for mocking misogyny. It says so right up top. It’s not our fault you lack reading comprehension and are being mocked for saying misogynistic things.

pecunium
10 years ago

racnad: More often they are just men who are seen as less desirable by women because of poor social skills,

What bullshit. The problem with, “the friendzone” is that some dude put the woman into, “the Girlfriend Zone” and she didn’t want to come along for the ride.

Not her problem.

I know this isn’t a dating advice blog

Then stop telling us to give men dating advice.

The only certain way a man can avoid being perceived as creep is to avoid expressing any romantic interest in women unless she has made an unambiguous first move.

Nope. The best way to avoid being a creep is to accept that women have boundaries, and then to respect the boundaries they have.

Because there is a difference between one woman finding you creepy (happens to all of us) and being a creep. I am sure there are women who have found me creepy. I am also pretty sure I don’t have a reputation as a creep.

When I was dating, I found it was actually rare for a woman to say no. More often is was something like “That sounds like fun, but I’m busy this weekend. Maybe another time,

Christ on a crutch. Did it happen more than once? Then she was probably being polite. Did she make plans only to break them? If not, then you’ve not got anything to complain about. You made your move, she deflected it.

If a clerk asks someone if they need help and they say, “not now”, we accept that this is a polite “no” and no one gets bent about it; but when a woman says, “not right now”, the poor menz go, “ok, WHEN!”.

But if she says no it’s, “Fucking frigid bitch”.

No, that is a “white lie” but still a lie which teaches men to not take what women tell them at face value and places the burden on them to figure out if the woman he’s talking to is being truthful or not. What’s wrong with honesty in relationships?

There was the girl who told the boy she wouldn’t go to the prom with him… and he stabbed her to death with the knife he’d brought to school in case she turned him down.

That sort of thing might have something to do with those, “white lies” you find so horrible.

cupisnique
10 years ago

There was the girl who told the boy she wouldn’t go to the prom with him… and he stabbed her to death with the knife he’d brought to school in case she turned him down.

Yeah, but that’s ooonnee guy and like racnad is totally not like this and would never hurt a woman so why can’t they just not be such horrible deceitful jerks to him (by deflecting his advances)? They should be able to tell the difference between a completely reasonable person like racnad and a violent misogynist!! /sarcasm

katz
10 years ago

Since racnad has completely devolved into “I know you are but what am I,” here is something I just got.

I adopted out a kitten to a woman with a French bulldog puppy and then this happened.

sparky
sparky
10 years ago

racnad, you do know we can go back and read your words, right?

Have you actually addressed anyone’s points, who have addressed you? I mean, if you’re not gonna stick the flounce and all.

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