If you missed my talk at Northwestern on the Friend Zone, and most of you did, I go over a lot of what I said in it in my interview with Amanda Marcotte here. My segment of the podcast starts about 8 minutes in. (The rest of the podcast is interesting, too.)
The one thing missing from the podcast that my talk had was … a gazillion terrible Friend Zone memes to illustrate all my points. So here are a couple of the ones I refer to in the interview.
Good podcast, David!
FYI, that “dinosaur philosopher” is called “philosoraptor” 🙂
If the friendship is not itself THE benefit, then you’re in a world of hurt. And yeah, shitty consolation prize is shitty. Honestly, how DID I get over the fact that the guy I loved was gay? And how are we still the best of friends today?
Y’know, the one time I’ve something described as “friend zoning” actually being that was on Regular Show. Mordecai really is a nice guy; he never acted like he was entitled to Margaret. He knew the main problem was he couldn’t work up the nerve to tell Margaret how he felt.
I’m glad to see “nice guys” are being taken apart here and there in media. Speaking of, I wonder how many guys took Zoller’s side in InGlorious Basterds?
I’m sorry David, but you got something wrong: Video games are most certainly real. It’s the events that are in them that aren’t.
But seriously, good podcast.
Great interview, David.
Great podcast, although for some reason I thought your voice would be a bit different. =P
http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=2615
I am ALWAYS for taking apart “nice” guys and the friendzone. ALWAYS.
Dave, thanks for the link to the comic. It should be posted in college dorms everywhere.
Well, my younger sibling is asexual, and I’m pretty sure this is how zie imagines the friendzone. Especially the trampoline bit.
THAT COMIC! YES!
The friend-zone sounds like the best thing ever, now. Yay for trampolines!
Love Marcotte 🙂
Instead of calling so-called nice guys “losers” and potential rapists because women don’t want to date them and they feel frustrated about it, why not offer positive suggestions on how they can become men women do want to date?
It’s not feminism’s job to make you a better, more fuckable man. But I suppose they (you?) could start by actually listening to women (or our allies, in this case) when they talk, so you don’t end up doing obnoxious shit like ignoring the actual rapey language and entitlement problems inherent in the “friendzone” meme and pretend we’re just being meanies for no reason. Or at least listen to the goddamn podcast before you comment on it. Women (like most people) don’t like it when you argue against shit they never even said.
@racnad
Because I don’t care about teaching men to become better dates*. Not everything is about trying to get men laid ^u^
*I do care that they become better people but 1) I’m not interested in teaching men who are put off by me not holding their hands and 2) it shouldn’t be my job to fucking teach them.
Hey Racnad
D’you really think it’s up to women to tell men not to be predators?
D’you really think that if a dude is pestering me – a dude I have no interest in and never will – that I am required to tell him how to become attractive? Because he WON’T. It wouldn’t matter if he turned into a genuinely nice person, I’m not interested in him.
Piss off with your notions of men having to be given lessons in how to treat women as actual human beings.
Ditto to everyone, but especially emilygoddess. Feminism is overflowing with “how not to be a creep” advice if you were actually interested in learning what women as a group tend to be negatively affected by (as opposed to women as a hivemind all being attracted to).
But if you expect feminism to be about instructing you specifically on how to get laid, you are missing the point big time.
Racnad: why on Earth should feminists tell you how to get a date? It’s on you to become the the kind of person another would want to spend time with.
Racnad,
This isn’t an advice column, but I can tell you that the fact you told us what to do and had an entitled attitude is pretty off putting.
Emily, I actually did listen to the webcast and it was not so bad. What I was commenting on was the notion in general that any man who uses the term “friendzone” to express his difficulties with women feels entitled to have sex with whomever he wishes and somehow endorses rape. This is what I meant by calling them losers. More often they are just men who are seen as less desirable by women because of poor social skills, they are less good looking, or they aren’t the dreamy-eyed hunks that many women feel more attracted to. Yes there are some men who just want to get laid and don’t give a crap about women as people, but to stereotype all men who have dating difficulties in this way is just as bad as stereotyping women as gold-diggers or sluts.
I know this isn’t a dating advice blog, but why this hostility toward the idea of advising men or how to become the kind of men women want to date, have relationships with or have sex with? It would seem the result would be a win-win – fewer frustrated men and fewer creeps to harassing women.
@racnad
Ah, our most boring troll.
No, they’re seen as less desirable because they’re fucking misogynists. GOod god.
omigod. omigod. omigod. Is racnad real?
*singsong voice* I doon”t give a fuuuccck about whether men get daatteees ^u^
If you only want to not be a shithead to get dates, you are a terrible person :3
hrovitner,
Where is the useful advice on how to avoid being a creep? Like it or not, the definition of creepy behavior varies from woman to women and with each women it varies according to who the man is. The only certain way a man can avoid being perceived as creep is to avoid expressing any romantic interest in women unless she has made an unambiguous first move. But like it or not most women expect the man to make the first move, which means there is always the risk of being perceived as creepy, since men are not mind readers. You might say “pay attention to non-verbal signals.” This is good advice but these vary from woman to woman. Women who have outgoing personalities can send signals that are easily misinterpreted as romantic interest, while a very reserved woman might send no interest signals at all, causing man who might be interested in her to not make a move because he believes she’s not interested. Sure, there are certain behaviors what most women find creepy and those should be avoided, but any man who’d like to have girlfriend needs to take this risk from time to time that his expression of interest might not be welcome. And if he isn’t the type of man considered attractive by a large percentage of women, then he has a larger risk of being perceived as creepy as a man who is seen as attractive by a large percentage of women. This is the point missed by feminists when they complain about creeps and the concept of friendzone.
Marie, are you capable of intelligent conversion or only name-calling?
Because only “hunks” have relationships and sex. That was sarcasm, in case Racnad is too dense.
The problem with guys who complain about the friendzone is that they expect sex and/or romance in exchange for performing niceness and make misogynistic remarks about women for the perceived affront of not returning the attraction.
Nobody is making fun of all men who are seeking a relationship and haven’t been able to find it.
The post was about men who respond to rejection with misogyny. Not men who can’t get dates.
This site is about mocking misogyny. This site is not about relationship advice.
What the everloving fuck is this? You are implying that women are to blame for harassment because we don’t want to have sex with or date them. No. Just no. Men shouldn’t harass women because harassment is wrong. We aren’t responsible for alleviating men’s frustrations so they don’t abuse us. They are responsible for their own behavior.
You also shouldn’t assume that creepers and harassers are all incels. That isn’t necessarily true. Men who harass are doing it because they like to assert power over others. Not because they’re sexually frustrated.