Many Men’s Rights Redditors see themselves as fighting a noble fight against genuinely evil, misandrist radical feminists on the internet. One of their most powerful weapons: the deadly downvote.
Reading through one old thread on Men’s Rights last night, I noticed how some Men’s Rights Redditors had deftly deployed their downvotes to fight off the evil feminist misandry lurking in this comment:
Outrageous! A statement that could have been ripped straight from Valerie Solanas’ SCUM Manifesto!
Kudos to the brave Redditors who saw this vile misandry for what it was.
Elsewhere in the same thread, I happily noticed, Men’s Rights Redditors were helpfully upvoting the reasonable and uplifting sentiments of decent fellows, like the Men’s Rights Redditor who goes by the name theboners, who offered a sensibly critical take on the always controversial question of whether or not it was a good idea for men to give in to “pussy privilege” and let ladies have the vote:
Oh you irresponsible women! Why do we let you do anything?
I mean, aside from letting GirlWritesWhat make YouTube videos; that’s ok.
–
It might be time for that blinking
gif to remind possibly literal-minded readers that I do not actually agree with theboners or think SweetieKat is a reincarnation of Valerie Solanas.
Asixpack: What was your MOS? What Staff assignments did you fill? Were you ever a Battle Captain; if so, what shop (and section).
Because what you are spouting is a lot of ignorant claptrap, dressed in language meant to make it look, “rational” and “based in science”, but actually reflecting nothing more than a commonplace of folly.
Nope. The Selective Service (and the drafts it was built to support) were because men weren’t willing to fight wars. It has been used to force men who otherwise didn’t want to serve into the military (with one exceptionl; and that a war of choice; which the US didn’t need to enter, but which had, by the time we joined, so much emotional resonance that the, very limited, need was exceeded by those volunteering).
I believe the titanic would have played out differently in the 21st century.
Do go on.
Pussy privilage IS real. It all depends on who wants to use it. Feminist women may not use it but i know a few who used it to get promotions and other favours from their boss in exchange for.. Uhh.. Sexual favours. He was a total pervert. It does exist though but not on the level that MRAs would like to believe.
Umn… this isn’t what you think it is. If the dude was willing to promote people for sex, it’s not “privilege”. It’s only privilege if it’s a class benefit all get some structural benefit from. Moreover you need to show how it’s the act of being female (not the act of either having a guy make a quid quo pro pass, or a woman able to blackmail someone after he chooses to have an otherwise inappropriate relationship with them) is what got them the promotion: with no other action on their part.
Because that’s how privilege works.
What you describe is either workplace harassment, or blackmail. Both of which are legally actionable (one of which is also criminal).
The comprehension, you lacks it.
@sixpack: No, we shouldn’t lower necessary standards to get perfect equity in gender representation, but the fact that women are straight-up banned from combat roles regardless of their individual qualifications is the definition of bigotry.
@steampunked
I had the same reaction too. One of these things is not like the others.
I like how he thinks women Just Don’t Understand the responsibilities of the grown-up manly man world, so they childishly vote for silly candidates and alpha government (using their ovaries to mark the ballots). Apparently women are taken in by political parties with logically consistent platforms and positive ideas about governance, and are therefore too emotionally immature to vote.
It’s complete nonsense, of course. If the average three-year-old could vote? They’d vote Libertarian.
Aispack, I’ll take one, and only one, shot at taking your seriously.
If you are hearing only silence when asking “What about the menz” it has more to do with how you listen and whom you choose to listen to than what is being said.
First of all, let’s be clear: not every movement or organization is a failure if it does not address everyone’s needs. I am not a veteran, but I am furious over how badly this county is currently treating those who have served in the military. I am not a member of a religious minority in this country, but I am sickened by the way some of my fellow Christians attempt to push Christianity into laws and schools and other public spheres. Men who come to a feminist blog and complain because feminists are not fixing the world for men remind me of some of my childless friends who complain about Mother’s Day or single friends who complain about Valentine’s Day. Not everything is about you, and whether of not something is about you is not the sole factor determining if it’s good or not.
Having said that, check out the right navigation on this very site. Resources for men who have been abused. Who has been fighting to get women in combat so men don’t have to bare the brunt of that alone? Feminists. Who has been leading the charge to make prisons, workplaces and the streets safer for men and women alike? Feminists. Who has been pushing for parental leave and flextime for parents? Yep, same answer.
Feminism is a movement and philosophy, a way of looking at and interpreting the world as well as a way of changing it. Feminists (both male and female) are people who subscribe to some version of feminist. It seems some people (and to be blunt, I hear this in your post) seem to think “Feminist = a woman who has a better job than me, or ended up in family court during a bitter divorce, or used sex to get ahead (a thing both men and women can do, by the way), or somehow made me mad.”
So, “what about the menz” you ask this feminist? I’ll tell you what about the menz. I imagine it sucks to be man sometimes. And I am sorry for that. Not because it’s the fault of the feminists, but because it sucks when life sucks. What am I doing about it? Fighting against the system that says men must always be strong and take the physical risks and be cannon fodder and not have healthy emotional lives. And that system called is the patriarchy. So, even though my movement doesn’t sound like it’s for you, I am still fighting for you.
You’re welcome.
Oh joy, Swole Bro Sixpack has decided to unload another semi-literate, incoherent, stoopid-as-fuck rant here. Complete with typical MRA two-dot ellipses.
Walking stereotype much, knuckle-dragger?
RE: Fibinachi
I don’t think Warren Farrell actually reads up on anything, he just kind of makes grand statements.
Fetch my fainting couch!
just a looming spectre of rape to scare people.
Gee, I can’t imagine what that’s like. Having rape used as a threat for good behavior. OH WAIT IS THIS THAT THING CALLED RAPE CULTURE THEM FEMINISTS TALK ABOUT?
it just fucking boggles my mind why this guy is taken the least bit seriously
Confirmation bias. And yes, I know, it hurts. *patspats*
RE: BritterSweet
And that’s only assuming feminism does absolutely nothing for men and boys.
Yeah, I’m living proof that that’s not true. Feminism was what got me to deal with my rape and find a much happier relationship with my now-husband. I’m a much healthier, happier man because of feminism!
@LBT, I assume from your use of the term “uplift” you’ve heard of David Brin’s Uplift series. I read 3 or 4 and was both fascinated and irritated.
And if you have heard of of David Brin, have you heard of a podcast called “The Partially Examined Life?” They have at least 3 episodes talk to Brin about his new book “Exsistance” and how humanity needs to “encompass more than the biological humans that we currently are.”
I have not listened to it yet. I am saving it for one of my 4-hour drives later this week.
Thank you bbeaty! 😀 (and to everyone else who has done/is doing that sort of thing)
Bwahaha. Aren’t you cute? My Germanic ancestresses, who fought real wars alongside their men, would have laughed their heads off at you…right before lopping yours off with their swords.
And since when does your national security depend so much on war, war and more war, rather than social equality and overall well-being? Seems to me the one with the war fantasies is you.
You really need to seek help for that.
Whoa, it’s women’s war fantasies we’re supposed to worry about now? Not that we’re incapable of violent fantasies as a gender, but um, pretty sure it’s not our war fantasies that are the ones generally being played out in meatspace, bro.
As for me, I’ll keep my war fantasies to the field at Pennsic. (Actually I’m really sad that I’ll probably never get to Pennsic again… it did make for a hell of a bachelorette party, though! Maybe Estrella someday? Who knows.)
It’s just funny, because I’m reading a biography of Ida B. Wells, an African American journalist — and woman — who was the first to bring widespread attention in protest against lynching.
What was that you were saying Asixpack?
I’m calling the bad gender history BULL-FUCKING-SHIT. ALL THE BULL-FUCKING-SHIT.
Women did sacrifice things to get suffrage. They willingly sacrificed their freedom in getting arrested for voting, their health during hunger strikes, their money in term of bail and suing to the courts, time in marching and organizing for suffrage, etc.
The following is US specific:
In addition, NO. THE DRAFT IS NOT A REQUIREMENT FOR YOU TO VOTE. THE UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION DOES NOT REQUIRE PEOPLE TO BE DRAFTED.
And NO. It’s not feminists’ fault that women are excluded from Selective Service (WHICH IS NOT THE DRAFT, WHAT THE FUCK). Blame the Supreme Court for ruling in the 1980s that said that it was constitutional to exclude women, even though NOW sued them for access.
RE: cloudiah
It’s just funny, because I’m reading a biography of Ida B. Wells, an African American journalist — and woman — who was the first to bring widespread attention in protest against lynching.
Yup. And then you’ve got poor Sylvia Rivera, who worked with Marsha Brown to start the queer liberation movement, focusing on trans women and drag queens. (Like Ida B. Wells, they got kicked out of the clubhouse for that.)
@Asixpack
Only feminists with a one-dimensional analysis of gender claim that dismantling the patriarchy will automatically fix everything for men. Men’s issues are not a result of gender oppression, but rather a more complex product of an intersection of patriarchal splash damage (i.e. the consequences associated with male privilege), capitalism, and white supremacy.
For instance, MRAs tend to point at the disproportionately high rate of workplace deaths among men and call it a product of “male disposability”. Yet this talking-point ignores the fact that the over-representation of male deaths here is a direct result of women being underrepresented within many dangerous jobs. It also ignores the fact that the high death rate is a consequence of anti-worker policies that make workplaces overall more dangerous. Finally, race is yet another component in this problem that is often ignored by MRAs; men of color are especially vulnerable to unsafe working conditions as they lack the safety net that white people have by virtue of benefiting from white supremacy. If an American Indian man develops a severe physical disability as a result of being injured on the job, he will have far less support than his white coworkers – in fact, he won’t get any support in many places here in the US.
So yes, if we only care about abolishing patriarchy, we won’t be able to fully address the problems of men. But more and more feminists are developing more sophisticated analyses of gender so that they can understand women’s oppression in greater detail – and, in doing so, lay the foundations for a truly effective analysis of men’s issues. Feminists don’t even focus on men and yet they do far more than MRAs can ever hope of doing.
Same song second verse: nonexistant QUOTAS exist, and FAIRNESS means we’ll all get KILLED, and MEN have more physical strength (sure yeah okay factually only about 10% more muscle mass on average which is when you look around at the rest of the animal world sorta nothing but we hoomans have to make a big fucking deal about it in order to uphold the myth of male superiority), and blah blah blah how creative I’ve never heard ANY of THAT shit before like since birth.
You’re boring, dude. That’s probably the reason for most of the deafening silence you experience when you start whining about Teh Menz.
That was directed at the genius asixpack, btw. Six pack of what?
BULL-FUCKING-SHIT. Was Rosa Parks only fighting for women’s rights, or was she fighting for the rights for all African Americans? Was Harriet Tubman simply fighting for women’s rights, or was she fighting to free all the slaves she could from a slaveholding South? Was ida B. Wells only fighting for women’s rights, or was she also trying to stop lynching? Was Susan B. Anthony working solely for women’s rights, or was she also an abolitionist, a labor activist, and a temperance worker?
There is no such thing as “pussy privilege”. It’s true that some women are capable of exchanging sexual favors for promotions, but you’re ignoring the common nature of such exchanges: exploitation.
For many women – especially trans women of color – such exchanges are the only or primary means of gaining greater financial stability. Chauvinist employers and other male superiors are institutionally empowered to manipulate women into performing sexual acts for the sake of promotions. That’s sexual abuse, not female privilege. It’s not a privilege to be a woman who is sexually harassed and/or abused in her workplace in an act of extreme worker exploitation while everyone pretends it never happened or that she’s just a liar, “bitch”, etc. trying to get revenge on her male superiors/coworkers.
And even if all of the above is false, we have an entire culture that demonizes women for sexually manipulating men, even when such sexual manipulation is merely imagined. It’s a constant fear that hovers above men, yet the fear is rooted in nothing more than anxiety about the possibility of not actively participating in women’s subordination. On the other side, women are burdened with both the fear and the reality of workplace sexual abuse. MRAs are wrong not because they overestimate the prevalence of women using the “pussy pass”, but because they believe it’s an institutionalized problem.
I’ll add that I personally know some trans lesbians of color who used to be sex workers. The abuse they suffered at the hands of men (cis and trans) is immeasurable, and it is even more so when one considers at the same time the common circumstances of these women. Whatever the “pussy pass” is, trans women certainly can’t ever even dream of accessing such a thing. Is the “pussy pass” an aspect of female privilege, or is it a consequence of patriarchal norms that are designed to destroy our existence? I think that question is worth thinking about.
O RLY?
This (white, cis-het) woman who fights for LGBT rights and racial equality calls bullshit on that.
Bina – It’s a horrible historical claim too. It’s just bull-headed wrong.
Yup. It’s all of it bullshit sammitches, toppum to bottomus.
Because when men are in positions of power and they demand sexual favors from women under their control, it’s the women who have the privilege there.
@Fibinachi
I read your blog post on romance novels, and it was excellent.
I just read a romance novel myself and I wanted to talk about it because it was so godawful.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/18870159-bad-for-you
It’s bizarrely full of MRA tropes. Like calling women “females”, treating a hot virgin as the holy grail despite her having no discernible personality, and treating most of the women mentioned in the book as interchangeable vaginas. With a bonus of “violent jealousy and controlling behaviour” as an expression of love.
It was written by woman though – it’s bizzare.
The idea that the best possible sexual partner is one who has no sexual experience really confused me when I was a kid. Even before I had any sexual experience of my own the idea that someone who was in the same position would be the ultimate lover seemed unlikely.