Just two dudes, talkin’ ’bout rape on the Men’s Rights subreddit

Hi and welcome, Sagamanus!

Off-topic is usually on topic here. Especially when kitties are involved. It’s really only trolls who do unwelcome off-topic stuff. 🙂

I see, but to me that still doesn’t feel quite right. It kinda is in conflict with the notion that we *should* be able to expect men to control themselves enough not to go out and rape people. It circumvents victim blaming only by giving the perpetrator a different motive, and not by establishing that victims aren’t at fault.

But I suppose it’s you who has to put up with people arguing such BS, so it’s you who has to find the best arguments…

I see what you’re getting at here, and at the end of the day I think it depends what kind of discussion you are having. If someone is saying “women should be responsible for not getting raped,” then yes, the right tack is to put the onus on the rapists and a simple “men shouldn’t rape women, period” is fine. But if someone is saying “castrate the rapists,” then you have to get into why that doesn’t make sense (besides the human rights abuse part, of course).

Those attitudes go all the way to the top. That’s how Strauss-Kahn got away with raping and molesting women for so long… you know, the French guy who nearly got to lead the IMF but then stumbled an alleged attempted rape – which he probably did not commit, IIRC, but he committed enough of those back home in France over the years, apparently. And he always got away with it, because he was a famous politician, somebody with power, but also because his party, the Socialists, would always cover for him. I mean, you can’t just discuss this stuff in public, it would damage the party, right! That’s apparently what the mother (a loyal party member) of one victim advised her daughter, to not cause harm to come to the party…

So, yeah. All the way to the top.

@Katz: I agree, that seems like a reasonable distinction.

This is my first time commenting on this site as I have just discovered it. While I visit a few sites that can be termed feminist, they are sometimes frustrating because they aren’t willing to really challenge the MRA’s or the ‘Gamers’ too much for fear of giving them traffic. And yeah I can understand that. Those POS at places like ROK(Return of the Kings) think they’re the center of the world and take any mention of themselves as a sign that they are ascending into the public realm, and feminism’s destruction is just around the corner. This site can walk a different line as I peruse the archives I can see that Futrelle does call them out on their BS. So I’m here to stay.

PS – I hope it was ok to post this here as it is off topic. Anyway bookmarked. And for the record I’m a guy who has been called every name in the book in other places by them. I love to laugh at that.

Howdy! Hope you like SCENTED FUCKING CANDLES, we burn a lot of them here. In total misandry, natch.

@Octo

I see, but to me that still doesn’t feel quite right. It kinda is in conflict with the notion that we *should* be able to expect men to control themselves enough not to go out and rape people. It circumvents victim blaming only by giving the perpetrator a different motive, and not by establishing that victims aren’t at fault.

But we can make both arguments: we can say that rape isn’t really about sex but rather about power and say that regardless of that fact, men shouldn’t rape anyway.

In any case, the point by itself does counter victim-blaming because one reason we point out the power aspect of rape is to highlight the fact that rapists aren’t just innocent fools who don’t mean any harm. When rapists are recognized as those who want to dehumanize, humiliate, and violate other human beings, they lose power in society because they are at the same time recognized as people who are morally corrupt. It’s not just about assigning a different motive to the male rapist. It’s about holding them accountable and resisting narratives that portray rapists as slaves to their libido. Victim-blaming is still possible when another motive is assigned to rapists, but it is far more likely to happen when society compares a man raping a woman to, say, a hungry man stealing food out of desperation (neither the man nor the hungry person can help himself).

It’s important to talk about the etiology of rape i.e. whether it’s about sex or power because it is through that discourse that we are able to more accurately critique and resist rape culture. When we reduce the cause of rape to sexual motivations only, we enable rapists who hide behind a discourse of sexuality that constructs sex as synonymous with power.

@titianblue, No in this case he is not offered vouchers for a hotel, though she does offer to refer him to a men’s shelter (not a men’s DV shelter). She’s actually very sympathetic, acknowledges that men are also victims of abuse and that there should be more resources for them, and he kind of goes off on her a few times. In the call, Perrins swings back and forth between rage-garble and acknowledging that she is in fact being very nice. He doesn’t seem very stable. He also makes up a bunch of “facts” about DV.

LBT, that is a fantastic analogy. I want to steal it, if that’s okay with you.

@samantha: It’s cool that you play D&D with your grandkids. I’m hoping my wee ones will be interested, but of course it’ll be a while.

Out of curiosity, what version do you play? I have a soft spot for Basic, myself.

HI, Falconer. Mostly a mishmash of 1st and 2nd editions. Muy fun! My current characters (we have two games going, one with son and grandsons, the other with just son) are a 15th level Ranger and about the same level Elf Cleric. Ranger runs with all – son is a Halfling, elder grandson is an Elf fighter and younger is a Dwarf fighter. And our housemate, a very old and dear friend, is the DM.

And you?

I love Sundays. 🙂

But we can make both arguments: we can say that rape isn’t really about sex but rather about power and say that regardless of that fact, men shouldn’t rape anyway.

In any case, the point by itself does counter victim-blaming because one reason we point out the power aspect of rape is to highlight the fact that rapists aren’t just innocent fools who don’t mean any harm. When rapists are recognized as those who want to dehumanize, humiliate, and violate other human beings, they lose power in society because they are at the same time recognized as people who are morally corrupt. It’s not just about assigning a different motive to the male rapist. It’s about holding them accountable and resisting narratives that portray rapists as slaves to their libido. Victim-blaming is still possible when another motive is assigned to rapists, but it is far more likely to happen when society compares a man raping a woman to, say, a hungry man stealing food out of desperation (neither the man nor the hungry person can help himself).

It’s important to talk about the etiology of rape i.e. whether it’s about sex or power because it is through that discourse that we are able to more accurately critique and resist rape culture. When we reduce the cause of rape to sexual motivations only, we enable rapists who hide behind a discourse of sexuality that constructs sex as synonymous with power.

HUGE applause, standing ovation for this, Ally. You said what I was trying to, and much, much more eloquently.

99% of women love starbucks… hmmmmm. It seems to me like I’m always meeting men who love starbucks and women who can’t stand it for a variety of reasons (yes, that is anecdotal, I know, but my experience is worth something to me at least). I think their coffee tastes burned, and generally would prefer gas station coffee over it (but hey – I grew up with geologists and traveling and camping in with few services outside of the local gas station is a big part of that profession!) If they want to get me a real treat, they can watch me go to one of our tasty local coffee shops and get myself a cup of tea (BY MYSELF, hehehe!)

99% of women love starbucks… hmmmmm. It seems to me like I’m always meeting men who love starbucks and women who can’t stand it for a variety of reasons (yes, that is anecdotal, I know, but my experience is worth something to me at least). I think their coffee tastes burned, and generally would prefer gas station coffee over it (but hey – I grew up with geologists and traveling and camping in with few services outside of the local gas station is a big part of that profession!) If they want to get me a real treat, they can watch me go to one of our tasty local coffee shops and get myself a cup of tea (BY MYSELF, hehehe!)

*traveling and camping in areas with

TW for blatant rape apology and victim blaming

“No one actually believes women deserve it” squeal the MRAs…except when they do.

http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/590282/brazilians-say-women-in-revealing-clothes-deserve-rape-poll