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a voice for men a woman is always to blame antifeminism are these guys 12 years old? artistry attention seeking cupcake evil sexy ladies evil single moms evil women men who should not ever be with women ever misogyny MRA paul elam the poster revolution has begun

A Voice for Men fans have appropriated logos of real anti-violence organizations for new “Don’t Be That Girl” postering campaign

From @im_adam_barrett on Twitter
From @im_adam_barrett on Twitter

Here we go again. Like small children who have just discovered the power of the tantrum, the terrible people at A Voice for Men seem to have realized that the only reliable way for them to get the attention of the world is to act like complete assholes in public.  And so some fans of AVFM have decided to bring back the “Don’t Be That Girl” campaign — you know, the witless and misogynistic “parody” of the successful Canadian “Don’t Be That Guy” rape awareness campaign. Now they’re postering in Halifax.

But there’s one difference: this time they’ve put the logos of the real sponsors of the real “Don’t Be That Guy” rape awareness project on their phony posters. (You can see the whole list by downloading one of the pdfs of the real posters on this page.)

So far, two of the organizations listed on their phony posters – the Bryony House shelter for victims of domestic violence and the Halifax Police Department – have made very clear that their logos are being used without permission.

https://twitter.com/BryonyHouse/status/448148862193389568

It’s a pretty safe bet that the other organizations whose logos were appropriated feel similarly.

I’d like to encourage anyone who can afford it to follow up on a suggestion from Cloudiah in the comments and donate to Bryony House so that some good can come out of all this.

Now, I’m no expert on Canadian law, but it seems rather unlikely to me that it’s legal to simply stick some organization’s logo on something and pretend that they have endorsed it. Especially when that organization is the police.

Apparently some MRAs disagree with me on that:

https://twitter.com/AVoiceForMen/status/448225043026149376

“Your consent is not required” seems to be the operating assumption of a lot of those drawn to the Men’s Rights movement.

In later tweets, Elam claims that using the logos is legal because of “fair use,” which is not actually a term used in Canadian law, and promises that the “[p]osters will continue, cupcake.”

I guess we will see. Here are several more photos of the posters. There’s more discussion of this in the AgainstMensRights subreddit.

EDITED TO ADD: Elam has now responded to the critics, and promises to bankroll any legal challenges against the posterers. It’s pretty clear that he doesn’t understand why the logos are a problem.

EDIT/CORRECTION: It’s not completely clear that this postering campaign originated with AVFM. It’s pretty clear, though, that it’s supported by AVFM, and that those involved in it are supporters of AVFM. I’ve made a few changes to the headline and first graf to reflect this.

 

 

 

 

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moldybrehd
6 years ago

@Unimaginative I kinda meant that I had no actual statistics on why, but yeah, all the points you mentioned ran through my head, along with very decent sex education in our schools (most Canadian kids know exactly how babies are made).

tinyorc
6 years ago

If it were so. Using physical violence against children for punishment has long been generally accepted and still is legal in many places (only illegal in 34 countries).

On a slightly tangential note, I had a long fraught debate with a group of my liberal, international, educated friends on this subject the other night. I was totally gobsmacked to discover that out of our (mixed gender) group, it was only me and one other woman (who is a kindergarten teacher) who think that it absolutely 100% not acceptable to raise your hand to a child ever under any circumstances. Like EVER.

Everyone else, men and women, was arguing for varying degrees of “Oh a light smack is ok”, “Yeah, it’s fine as long as you don’t hit them in the face or anything”, “I mean, it has to hurt otherwise they don’t get the message but it shouldn’t leave a mark” and I was like HOLY HELL THIS IS DISGUSTING CAN YOU HEAR YOURSELVES ARUGING ABOUT HOW HARD YOU SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO HIT A CHILD. And even then they couldn’t agree amongst themselves, which is terrifying, because “how hard” is so bloody subjective that it would be impossible to legislate for this mythical perfect amount violence you can inflict on a child.

And then of course, the “But it works!” argument came up over and over again. Like yeah, of course it works. Just because terrorising a kid with violence makes them sit down and shut up when you say so doesn’t mean it’s RIGHT AND AAAAGGHHHH … *heavy breathing*

Bina
Bina
6 years ago

It’s a hell of a lot more common, auggz – and a lot of it comes from men, something MRAs never acknowledge.

This. Plus, when a baby is dumped it only happens once, and the baby is thereafter rescued and placed for adoption, usually with the best possible home. The momentary harm done by dumping is undone when the baby is rescued and adopted. Child abuse, on the other hand, tends to be an ongoing situation that leaves deep emotional scars. And good luck undoing that.

Sorry I wasn’t clear earlier; I hadn’t finished my morning tea, and my brain wasn’t in full gear!

Buttercup Q. Skullpants

That said, I doubt the Halifax Police Department consulted Wikipedia at all when this came to light. I think they probably consulted an actual lawyer.

That’s what comes of living your entire life inside the computer. You start to believe Wikipedia trumps everything, a few minutes of Googling can turn you into an expert on any subject, and activism can be achieved through cowardly frat-boy pranks. They’re more interested in getting attaboys and high-fives from the other dudebros than actually changing society’s perceptions. As far as MRAs are concerned, other people don’t really exist.

deniseeliza
deniseeliza
6 years ago

I had a facebook friend (someone who I was friends with as a child) recently post an image saying something like “My parents spanked me as a child, as a consequence I suffer from a condition known as ‘respect for others'”.

I kind of wanted to be like “respect for others, except for my children, who I can hit whenever I want”.

I also thought it was extra disturbing considering that it was an open secret in the neighborhood that her older brother, who had a mental illness, was being regularly beaten by their father with a belt. But I guess he “turned out ok” so no harm no foul?

Bina
Bina
6 years ago

I don’t…get the last one. Are they telling women not to be prostitutes in spite of the fact that there’s a demand and they’ll make money?

Do they even have a *reason* to be anti-prostitution? Apparently the fact that it’s a job women do is enough to encourage women to stop? And isn’t trafficking–involuntary prostitution–a huge problem?

So, let me get this straight, “Women, stop being kidnapped and raped because that’s a woman’s job and you shouldn’t for inexplicable reasons!”

I think that what really gets them steamed is that these women (actually, girls, let’s be honest, because these guys often like ’em under-age) have the temerity to ask for money instead of just taking their shit for free. And because it hurts their widdle feelings that a lot of the girls out there actually are pimped and trafficked, meaning they’re not in this out of a “natural” desire to serve the menz. They’re in it because of poverty and duress, and these guys can’t stand being reminded that that is, in fact, a powerless place for a woman to be. They want to have the illusion that women enjoy unlimited power over men by way of what’s between their legs; Warren Farrell sez so, does he not? So the idea of a woman not only having that “power” but making money off it, even if she’s far from independent (let alone powerful) as a result, just makes them furious. Women are supposed to be ultra-dependent, ultra-submissive, always-available sex dispensers with no personal wants or needs.

Kim
Kim
6 years ago

The original posters were developed by Sexual Assault Voices of Edmonton (SAVE) and were sponsored by those groups. The posters are open source; but, the creators ask that their work be recognized and their logos be used in addition to any other entities that might wish to use the posters.

That being said, this next batch of posters is deplorable. It is telling that the theme linking all the posters is the vilification of women, an attempt to assert gender symmetry in crime, and a wilfully ignorant and decontextualized representation of women’s criminality.

Nova
Nova
6 years ago

@Dvärghundspossen: There are ways to decriminalize sex work while also protecting those who work in the industry and fighting sex trafficking as well. The strip club industry already has a good framework in a lot of states and cities that can be expanded.

kittehserf
6 years ago

Bina – I’d read it differently. I don’t think these guys give a flying fuck about being reminded women and girls are enslaved and trafficked. They might be angry at the reminder that women don’t have the power they pretend we do, but I think at the same time they’d be more than happy to know they were raping a sex worker. If anything, trafficked sex workers would probably appeal to them most of all, because they really are as powerless as MRAs want all women to be.

The poster seemed to me to be angry about a woman choosing sex work – though I’d be dubious about the idea that many working on the street are in a good situation; it’s one of the most dangerous ways to do it, iirc (hookergal, if you’re reading, could you correct/confim that?)

It’s always women’s choice that angers this lot. We can choose to say no, we can choose to say yes – and we’re likely to choose someone else.

kittehserf
6 years ago

Sigh … I so wish I could bring one of those kitties home. Not that we’re in a position to have a kitten anyway, but oh, I’m aching for another cat these days!

vaiyt
6 years ago

“My parents spanked me as a child, as a consequence I suffer from a condition known as ‘respect for others’”.

The only thing my father taught me in the few times he hit me, is that he could hurt me when he’s angry. Nothing more.

Buttercup Q. Skullpants

If I’ve learned nothing else today, it’s that you can’t spell “posterior” without “poster”.

Auntie Alias
Auntie Alias
6 years ago
Viscaria
Viscaria
6 years ago

“Halifax is breaking Canadian and international law by discriminating according to gender with its hateful one-sided poster campaign and then threaten (sic) legal actions to silence dissenters,” a posting on the Men’s Rights Halifax website said Wednesday.

L-O-fucking-L.

Auntie Alias
Auntie Alias
6 years ago

@Viscaria, I know, right? Goofballs.

contrapangloss
6 years ago

Tinyorc, I have a few friends who are totally in your camp. I’m not entirely sure where I am, so it’s probably just as well that I’m not considering finding someone to create a legion of tiny people.

My parents only ever spanked me three times. I remember exactly why, and when, for all three. In each case, it was because I was doing something that could have legitimately gotten me killed under the wrong circumstances AND they weren’t able to catch my attention by just saying my name in the ‘no nonsense parent voice’.

I think under those circumstances, what they did was perfectly acceptable. One swat, pretty light, but a hell of a startle, followed immediately by them getting down at my level, and telling me EXACTLY why what I was doing was bad.

If I had been spanked more than just those three times, I’d bet it would have been way less effective. Also, if they had legitimately hurt, and not just been startling, I don’t think it would have worked as well. At least, the whole “We only did this because we love you and don’t want you to be hurt” start to each “Why ____ was a bad move” lecture would have seemed a bit… dissonant.

Bina
Bina
6 years ago

“My parents spanked me as a child, as a consequence I suffer from a condition known as ‘respect for others’”.

Yeah, well, my parents spanked me, too. And I respect others. But the latter is not a consequence of the former. In fact, it’s a strange coincidence that I still respect my folks in spite of their having spanked me, because it showed me exactly how prone to flying off the handle/lacking in better ideas adults could be. And how they could somehow excuse their own lack of patience…as “discipline”.

Long story short: That Facebook meme is trite and stupid, and it’s time to replace it with something better.

Bina
Bina
6 years ago

“Halifax is breaking Canadian and international law by discriminating according to gender with its hateful one-sided poster campaign and then threaten (sic) legal actions to silence dissenters,” a posting on the Men’s Rights Halifax website said Wednesday.

Yeah, well…that’s just YOUR opinion, dude. And it don’t mean shit, considering that your side is advocating for a lot MORE one-sidedness, genderwise.

kittehserf
6 years ago

That spanking/respect thing is a meme? Not a very good one, then. I took it to mean “I learned how disrespectful spanking is, and respect my children enough not to do it to them.” If that’s the opposite of what it means, well …

Viscaria
Viscaria
6 years ago

Goofballs indeed. What a perfect description XD

Viscaria
Viscaria
6 years ago

There’s an X D emoticon!?! I am excited about these things all over again!

emilygoddess
6 years ago

I keep thinking what a gleeful moment it must have been for Paul, getting to tell a woman that her consent was not required. I’d even venture to suggest he may have gotten off on it.

So what I’m getting at, finally, is that it really doesn’t seem to be the case that women “offer” as soon as there’s demand. Why not attack the “demanders” instead?

Especially given that so many sex workers are either trafficked, being exploited, or have turned to it as a last resort. Whereas it’s hard to imagine a circumstance in which the person paying for sex isn’t participating voluntarity. Even when they’re hiring a sex worker who’s doing it freely and loves the job, the transaction wouldn’t happen without a patron, so…

Bina
Bina
6 years ago

MRAs are lousy at economics. Don’t they know that demand drives everything? And that without demand, the supply would just dry up? Sheesh.

Bina
Bina
6 years ago

That spanking/respect thing is a meme? Not a very good one, then. I took it to mean “I learned how disrespectful spanking is, and respect my children enough not to do it to them.” If that’s the opposite of what it means, well …

Yup, it’s a meme. I saw it on my own timeline, and oh, how sorely tempted I was to…DISCIPLINE the offending reposter.

katz
6 years ago

OK, Doad wants to call the tabby Skiffle and the gray one Glitch, but we are still undecided about the black one.

Melissia (@MelissiaKuromoi)

“Your consent is not required”

Well then, thank you for confirming the righteousness of my purchase of a revolver for self defense. Also, don’t ever fucking touch me.

brittanyjacqueline
6 years ago

Reblogged this on brittanyjacqueline and commented:
Here we go again, MRA’s make me rage so hard sometimes!

cloudiah
6 years ago

How about Speck, Iota, or Mote for the wee little black kitty? I’m glad Skiffle made the grade. XD

Falconer
6 years ago

@footnotegirl: Welcome to the comments!

The particular argument I was having was about a study that declared, breathlessly that female daycare workers were dangerous because *gasp* 38% of all sexual abuse of children in daycares was done by women!

What was this person’s point? Who did they think was doing the other 62% of sexual abuse of children in daycares? What was their solution? Or were they just trying to gotcha?

Falconer
6 years ago

Let me join in the brain bleach.

I can’t hope to compete with Katz’s kittens, though.

Arctic Ape
Arctic Ape
6 years ago

Falconer: They were supposedly going after this stereotype that men are *much* more likely than women to abuse children. Well, no shit.

Falconer
6 years ago

@Arctic Ape: Roughly 3:2 isn’t *much* more likely?

kittehserf
6 years ago

OT – Falconer, you were so right about Moose County and the dangers of having even a nodding acquaintance with Qwilleran. The place really is giving Midsomer a run for its money.

I had to laugh at a “Moose county isn’t used to murders” comment in one of the books. Hello, multiple murders every few months since Qwill moved in, they should be used to it by now!

cloudiah
6 years ago

The BABIES are getting so big! And cute! (Well, they’ve always been cute.)

Arctic Ape
Arctic Ape
6 years ago

It is when you consider that almost all daycare workers are women. This was explained upthread.

LBT
LBT
6 years ago

RE: spanking

I am immensely glad that I have never really been put in a situation where I’ve felt at all tempted to raise my hand to a kid. The kids in this system were all ten and up, so you know, different level. And no matter what, I just don’t feel good about smacking someone that much smaller and weaker than me who has absolutely no recourse if I decide to take advantage of that power.

RE: wordsp1nner

Abuse, on the other hand, can be conducted by one caretaker acting alone.

I know that the convo moved on ages ago, but this is a personal thing with me, so… it’s a LITTLE more complicated than that.

In the case of a single parent family, sure, a single abuser is a thing. But often, if there’re two parents and an abusive situation, there’s this thing called the Drama Triangle. Basically, each corner is a person playing a role, and the three roles are Victim, Perpetrator, and Bystander. (Or Rescuer, depending on the tradition.) These roles are very fluid and interchangeable — a victim can finally get sick of it and become a perpetrator, the perp and bystander might switch roles off and on for double the fucked-up points, etc.

What I mean is, while it’s not impossible that one parent is abusive and hides it from the other… I personally am of the belief that there’s a degree of looking the other way. There’s a bajillion reasons — fear of retribution, not wanting to rock the boat, self-guessing, not believing it constitutes ‘real abuse’ — but I haven’t really run into many folks where one parent was abusive and the other didn’t know SOMETHING.

My situation was unusual in that I was in a family of Bystanders, with the Perps always being outside of the nuclear family. And my parents were at least somewhat aware of what’s going on — my mom said she suspected I was getting raped, but didn’t want to do anything for fear of “making it worse” — that or they were spectacularly non-observant. (Such as the time I came inside for dinner bloody and crying and they just didn’t appear to notice I existed.)

What I mean to say is, I suspect there’s usually an element of willful blindness.

Falconer
6 years ago

It is when you consider that almost all daycare workers are women. This was explained upthread.

We seem to have got to cross-purposes here. I wasn’t trying to argue with you, sorry.

Arctic Ape
Arctic Ape
6 years ago

Sorry on my part too; I started to explain this thing, but then was too lazy to type at length, so it came off as short and condescending.

Nitram
Nitram
6 years ago

Lbt:
“RE: spanking

I am immensely glad that I have never really been put in a situation where I’ve felt at all tempted to raise my hand to a kid. The kids in this system were all ten and up, so you know, different level. And no matter what, I just don’t feel good about smacking someone that much smaller and weaker than me who has absolutely no recourse if I decide to take advantage of that power.”

I just look at it this way: I wouldn’t hit an adult I was having a problem with, so hitting a child is just downright assinine. Not to mention, I certainly don’t want to teach my children it’s ok to solve problems using violence. So by modeling violence against them, my “no hitting” rule would be rendered hypocritical and illogical. 🙂

LBT
LBT
6 years ago

RE: Nitram

True facts. I guess I just have this irrational belief that one day, if I have kids, I’ll someday be FORCED into this situation where the kid won’t learn something of drastic importance any other way. But now that I think of it, that’s a pretty irrational thing to think; I haven’t met anyone who can learn a lesson just ONE way.

Felisha
Felisha
6 years ago

I remember Paul Elam saying ‘fuck you’ to people who opposed the Occidental spamming. He’s gone militant about these issues and is ready to tough it out with the police…from a safe distance via twitter on his rich American congo. Yah?

I may be wrong here, but I don’t see him personally leading the charge like a confederate general of a calvary division, backed by a horde of faithful anti-fems. I see him saying “You do it. You get arrested. I’ll send you a greeting card with a ‘Thank you, dumbass’ on it.”

Though I think I would pay good money just to see Elam arrested, personally.

Thanks for posting this, David. Good stuff 🙂

kittehserf
6 years ago

Though I think I would pay good money just to see Elam arrested, personally.

You are not alone!

Nitram
Nitram
6 years ago

Lbt

Exactly. Spanking kids is just an adult having a tantrum. I have swatted my son and it only served to aggravate the situation. I always felt terrible after and then it struck me as completely absurd to tell a child “no hit” and then hit him. It’s almost embarrassing.

CyberSix
CyberSix
6 years ago

Hello. long time reader, first time poster. Sorry if this is a bit off a tangent but I just wanted to share. Because of my profession I’ve taken a few business courses in school that taught me about copyright laws (Canadian copyright laws) and such. I have a basic knowledge of contracts and rights and all that tasty stuff. One important thing I was taught was about Moral rights (rights of the artists integrity, etc.).

For example: if my work ends up on the cover of some neo-Nazi magazine, not only are my copyrights being violated (violating my copyright over my work), but my moral rights are as well (violating my rights, e.g. using my work on something I would never support and that would be misrepresenting me).

If I’m not mistaken the use of the logos on these posters would not only be copyright infringement, but a huge violation of moral rights (possibly the organization’s rights or the creator of the logo). The use of these logos misrepresents the organizations (defamation). I also believe that most of the organizations by now have already announced they do not support these posters and that their logos have been used without consent.

So yeah…I see some commenters over at AVFM trying to claim ‘fair use’ or ‘parody which is ridiculous. I highly doubt claiming parody or fair use will cover this copyright infringement. Let’s pretend hypothetically though that they could cover themselves on the copyright violations of the logos by claiming parody or fair use. You still have a huge violation on your hands though. No amount of claiming ‘parody’ or ‘fair use’ will cover you when you violate moral rights.

CyberSix
CyberSix
6 years ago

Oh yeah about moral rights! I thought I’d mention some delicious tidbits of information.
According to the Copyright Act (R.S.C., 1985, c. C-42),
which can be found here
http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-42/page-1.html

In reference to moral rights ( specifically “Infringement generally”) the Copyright Act states:

“28.1 Any act or omission that is contrary to any of the moral rights of the author of a work or of the performer of a performer’s performance is, in the absence of the author’s or performer’s consent, an infringement of those rights”

Also in reference to moral rights (specifically “Nature of right of integrity’) the act states:

“28.2 (1) The author’s or performer’s right to the integrity of a work or performer’s performance is infringed only if the work or the performance is, to the prejudice of its author’s or performer’s honour or reputation,
(a) distorted, mutilated or otherwise modified; or
(b) used in association with a product, service, cause or institution”

Food for thought 😉

Kingfillins
Kingfillins
6 years ago

Why is is misogynistic to suggest that a woman should not abuse or use violence? Why is it not Misandry to suggest the same of men? Do you not see a bizarre double standard here? You are promoting equality? Yet you attack what you should be promoting yourself… why is such a suggestion “childish”…Women need to stop abusing children and men… and visa versa … why attack the suggestion?

cloudiah
6 years ago

Um, no one is suggesting that women shouldn’t use violence. Where did you get that?

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

Reading is fundamental, necro trolls!

katz
6 years ago

Why is it not Misandry to suggest the same of men?

Because that isn’t a real word.

marinerachel
marinerachel
6 years ago

What the blue fuck was that?

Women shouldn’t use violence? Firstly, where’sat from? Where did you read that? Here?

Secondly, whether to use violence isn’t a yes or no question. It’s a circumstantial question. There are times violence is justified. Hopefully one never encounters a situation where it is but if one does, of course using it is reasonable.

The suggestion “Women need to stop abusing children and men” is one worthy of scorn because it presumes the generality that women abuse children and men, that this is a general truth. Some do. Some abuse other women too! The assumption it’s a woman problem though, that it’s something women in general engage in, is problematic. Women engaging in violent abuse of men and children is not that prevalent. It’s certainly not the inherent behaviour you’re portraying it as.

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