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Don’t Ask: A Middle-Aged Man’s Creepy Roadmap to a Woman’s “Secret Garden.”

Escalation to the sex location
Escalation to the sex location

Sometimes I scour the internet for hours in search of material for this blog. Other times it just plops right in my lap. Today, it plopped, in the form of a new visitor to this blog by the name of J.S., a 52-year-old married farmer (he said) who brought with him some very old-fashioned ideas about love and romance and how men can best access the “secret gardens” of the pretty ladies of the world.

No, really, he did,proclaming himself an infallable guide to

the ‘secret language’( sub and non-verbal communication), the dating game, or how very attractive women go about choosing which men they let into their secret garden and which ones they don’t.

The primary lesson he tried to impart: that the “secret garden” is a little bit like Fight Club: The first rule of Secret Garden is that dudes can never ask to enter Secret Garden.

As he put it:

You never ask a feminine woman ‘what she wants’.

If you ask what she wants, you will kill the attraction immediately.

Her desire is to be led by a masculine man.

This is what bad boys do. They don’t really give a shyt about her. It’s all about them and the conquest. Women respond to this because sex is virtually all they think about and nice guys are always supplicating towards her hoping she’ll give them the go ahead to seduce and have sex with her. Wrong, wrong, wrong. You’d might as well let your child drive your car on your next vacation.

Oh, he later amended this a tiny bit. You can ask a woman if she wants to have sex if, like, you’re already married to her or something. But you can never ask to enter her Secret Garden unless you’ve already entered her Secret Garden.

The fact is, you don’t ask women to have sex unless you’ve known them for a good while, or are in a relationship. And you never ask them to ‘have sex’ before you’ve actually had sex with them the first time. Or the only thing you’ll be getting is a cold shoulder.

So if you can’t actually use human language to find out if you can enter her Secret Garden, how can you enter for the first time  it without, you know, being “falsely” accused of rape or something?

As they say in real estate, it’s all about escalation to the sex location, location, location.

Ok, that’s not exactly what they say in real estate. But here’s J.S., explaining the proper way to open her garden gates:

[W]hen interacting with a woman there should be only one thing on your mind… Is it cocky, funny? Is it humor. Is it talking about the weather? Nope. It’s about escalation to the sex location. If you don’t do this, you will be disrespected as a man, and find yourself lonely.

I’m sorry, I’m still stuck on “escalation to the sex location.”

escalation to the sex location

escalation to the sex location

escalation to the sex location

escalation to the sex location

Once you get her to the sex location, though, it’s important to remember not to ask her anything about her Secret Garden, or really anything at all. By agreeing to go to your sex location — probably just your apartment — she basically is agreeing to you groping all over her trying to get into her Secret Garden.

I mean, this is all covered in your basic Being A Human manual, but in case you missed it I’m just repeating it.

Anyway, once you’re both there, you need to keep escalating so that sex will “just happen” without anyone checking in with anyone else verbally or anything, because actually getting some sort of verbal go-ahead for anything sexual is totally against nature.

This is why women are so fond of the expression, it just happened.

Again, nope it doesn’t ‘just happen’. It happens early in relationships because she allows him to be alone with her, allows herself to become aroused, then doesn’t resist.

Then the relationship starts.

Let me just repeat the bit I put in bold there:

she allows him to be alone with her, allows herself to become aroused, then doesn’t resist.

That may be the creepiest, rapiest description of sex (and/or the start of a relationship) that I think I may have ever read.

Remember, dudes, according to J.S.’s Rules of Secret Garden you are supposed to keep escalating (in the sex location), but you are never, ever, ever to ask her if anything you are doing is ok with her.

But ladies, if you want things to stop, you need to answer the question he hasn’t actually asked with a clear verbal “no” or “stop” or, you know, you could fight him.

Because it is so important that men never ask a woman for consent that it’s better for women to be put in the position where they have to literally fight off their dates to make clear they don’t want to have sex, rather than simply have a very brief conversation that would make the issue of consent completely clear.

The evil genius of this “don’t ask, because if you ask she’ll say no because you asked” formulation — which is common amongst MRAs, PUAs, and assorted other rape apologists — is that it puts the responsibility for date rape not on (male) rapists but on their (female) victims by making the issue of consent entirely her responsibility and giving him an excuse to pretend he didn’t know she wasn’t consenting.

I didn’t know she wasn’t into it, the rapist can say, because it’s not like I could just ask.

But of course you could have. You should have. The responsibility for obtaining sexual consent belongs to whoever is “escalating” the sex. If there is any any doubt about anything at any point, ask. Using actual words.

Yes, potential partners are likely to be turned off by neediness. But the idea that getting consent is the same as supplicating is ridiculous. And the idea that it is inherently unerotic will come as a surprise to anyone who’s ever engaged in cybering or phone sex or dirty talk in bed.

Are there really women out there who are so turned off, so offended, by the idea of a man asking for consent that they would reject a man they were interested in just because he asked, possibly in a charmingly filthy way, for a “yes” before he put his hand up her skirt?

They must exist. Louis CK has a famous bit about a baffling and unconsummated encounter he had many years ago with a woman who had what you might call an extreme “don’t ask first” fetish. I can only hope she eventually managed to find her way to a local BDSM group so she could explore her submissive fantasies in a safe, sane, and consensual way, as they say.

It’s bizarre to have to point this out, but, dudes: If a woman is into you, and into sex, she’s going to want to have sex with you even if you ask her first. Indeed, if her attraction to you is so fragile, and her sexuality so dependent on fantasies of being “taken” that merely asking her to have sex is enough to kill the attraction, well, you’ve probably dodged a bullet, to be perfectly honest.

Making consent clear is good for both partners. Not only does it, you know, prevent rape, but it makes for better sex. The partner who “escalated” the sex knows that what they’re doing is ok with their partner, who, in turn, knows that they’re with someone who respects their boundaries.

When you talk about sex — before, during, and after — you can find out all sorts of things about what your partner likes and doesn’t. You can share your own personal kinks. This actually enables you to do a lot more sexually than people who don’t talk, even if the man in that relationship is the most alpha alpha who’s ever alphaed, because you don’t have to guess.

We have language for a reason. Use it. In bed.

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Bina
Bina
7 years ago

We have opinions, so clearly we’re all unfeminine and past our “sexual prime”.

Good gravy. If that’s true, then I was past my “sexual prime” before I was even sexually mature!

Bina
Bina
7 years ago

Having fun and laughing together is pretty damn sexy in my book.

Amen to that. I’ve laughed before, during and after sex. I can recommend it.

Also recommend using one’s words…and refraining from corny metaphors for ladybits unless you’re specifically going for comic effect.

mildlymagnificent
7 years ago

seranvali. I damn near stood up and cheered at the television when I saw that on the news tonight. Good on him.

Nitram
Nitram
7 years ago

I said this before but it bears repeating: asking for consent turns THEM off, not women.

freemage
freemage
7 years ago

So I was scanning the necrothread (damn, it was long, even before being necro’ed) and I caught one of Mikey/J.S.’s posts boasting that ‘thousands’ of men had joined the MRM.

Given that that’s drawn from the global English-speaking internet population, that’s kinda like boasting about having five whole square inches of property. In a swamp.

fromafar2013
7 years ago

@ freemage “Given that that’s drawn from the global English-speaking internet population, that’s kinda like boasting about having five whole square inches of property. In a swamp.”

http://s.quickmeme.com/img/12/12fc8f7415061141fc2a79464b7847602475430c05385d5e731e1994b12881c0.jpg

augochlorella
7 years ago

I am constantly impressed by the ability for these guys to make sex sound so unappealing.

Oh, and if anyone’s interested in some flowers for their secret garden, I have some suggestions:

Hydnora africana

I would recommend Nepenthes attenboroughii if you want a secret garden that can eat rats.

And of course, Amorphophallus titanum. (Yes, that is Latin for “giant misshapen penis.”)

augochlorella
7 years ago

Nepenthes attenboroughii is also good if you want your dangly bits named after David Attenborough.

Assuming you haven’t named them that already, of course.

jennydevildoll
7 years ago

I’m more a fan of Francis Hodgson Burnett’s “Secret Garden” than Nancy Friday’s “Secret Garden”. This guy’s “Secret Garden”? I think it’s the Monsanto version.

kittehserf
7 years ago

Seranvali – that’s the BEST thing I’ve read in ages! Everything he said is so true, and this is the worst and most frightening government. I loathe Abbott even more than Howard, and that’s saying something. I love every word of that speech, especially the thought that this government’s just going to be a greasy smear soon.

Speaking of David Attenborough, did anyone see his Natural History Museum Alive program? Marvellous animation and whimsical as well as informative – I loved it.

opium4themasses
opium4themasses
7 years ago

Off topic link: http://playboysfw.kinja.com/meet-belle-knox-the-duke-porn-star-as-you-might-have-1535822551

Duke student is a porn actress and got outed by a fellow student. She gives an interview in defense of sex work(ers). There are some ignorant comments but I love how much support she is being giving.

My biggest issue is her libertarianism, but she’s 19 and can outgrow that.

Binjabreel
Binjabreel
7 years ago

Okay, I haven’t read the whole thread yet, but by the jokes I’m assuming you guys have never heard of this then:
Farmersonly.com

You’re all very, very welcome.

Fibinachi
7 years ago

@opium4themasses

Ah, that story. The article on xojane is also worth a read if you have a few minutes to spare.

It’s a wonderful example of a cultural oddity though – a guy watches porn, finds someone he thinks he knows, finds out it is someone he knows, asks her if she does porn, is told that she does, guy then shares news with campus bros, who are all surprised and take various vows to out her completely and or sleep with her (there’s no difference between a porn actress and a hooker, apparently) and the end result is…

… the actress getting mocked.

Wait, what? Go back a step. What about the guy who was watching all that porn? It must have been enjoyable porn then, if he was watching it! When’d we slip into “You’re a bad person, actress to whom I have pleasured myself several times!” instead of oh, I don’t know, “Hey, I liked you in that Rough Things Done Roughly, what’s our sociology homework for tomorrow?”

I mean, I’m no great socializer or even all that nice, but if I met someone I had entertained several detailed fantasies about my response would be “rherh.. Erh. So youh… Ah… haveaniceday“, not “You’re a slutty slut slut slutty slut, also, I’m going to go watch your videos again”.

Hell, what about the people conflating two kinds of sex industry job? Shouldn’t they be mocked for their inadequate grasp of business? At least a few of those college students must be doing business majors! Their stakeholder analysis and or market segment research must be terrible if they make such an elementary mistake!

But no. No. Instead, you get people on internet comment sites raging at someone who is doing a job to get out of college without debt… because the job she is doing is somehow the wrong kind. Or it exposes her to too many penises. Or… something.

Hey, I’m no fan of pornography as such (I’ll take problematic uses of sex for two hundred) but at least the arguments you can leverage against it tends not to be “So this person choose to do this on her own time rather than take out a loan, and is apparently working under pretty decent conditions, and that’s terrible!

vaiyt
7 years ago

Hypocritical false moralism. The same people who consume sex work and porn condemn the women who take part in it. I’m very familiar with it, my culture is fucking drowning on this bullshit.

leatapp
leatapp
7 years ago

Fininachi and Vaiyt,

I know a woman who lost her job because it was discovered that she had been in a porno flick back in the pre-internet days. She was found out by, you guessed it, guys watching porn who then outed her and called on her to lose her job for being so immoral. 0.o It’s bullshit. She was a veteran. She had gone from being homeless to getting an education and fulfilling her dreams of becoming a teacher. I don’t know what became of her. She had to leave town once she was outed. Fucking hypocrisy.

I like to watch Supernatural. One of the characters is depicted as being a fan of porno and skin mags. I was so relieved when they showed him meeting one of his favorite performers and instead of being a hypocrite, he compliments her on her talent and tells her he has great respect for her work. The whole thing is played for a laugh, but that’s the way it should be. Fans of erotica should be fans of the people who make the erotica too.

leatapp
leatapp
7 years ago

Opium4themasses,
Jeez! That hate in that comment section coming from men is repulsive. The idea that she’s pretty, smart, ambitious and having a banging sex life and professional life just infuriates them. I wonder how many of them are simply jealous?

sparky
sparky
7 years ago

leatapp:

I wonder how many of them are simply jealous?

I believe the answer to that is “all of them.”
I couldn’t take that comment section for too long. Just the sheer seething ragey hate of it, yeesh!

LBT
LBT
7 years ago

RE: Buttercup Q. Skullpants

Oh, LBT, you only think your night-blooming flowers need darkness and privacy. Farmer John here says what they really want is Agent Orange and Roundup, and he’s the expert.

HSSSSSS! *gets down on all fours, crab-walks up wall, across ceiling, and out of room, never to be seen again*

RE: Kittehs

It’s bougainvillea, man

No, I’m a man, see, that automatically means my spelling is superior! Only WOMEN have bouganvillea!

are there drop-bears?

🙁 Too expensive, and they shipped terrible.

freemage
freemage
7 years ago

Kittehs: Chicago trip ideas for you in the Open Thread.

leftwingfox
7 years ago

are there drop-bears?
🙁 Too expensive, and they shipped terrible.

Despite the name, they don’t like being dropped by postal workers.

leftwingfox
7 years ago

Hypocritical false moralism. The same people who consume sex work and porn condemn the women who take part in it. I’m very familiar with it, my culture is fucking drowning on this bullshit.

It’s doubly hypocritical if they actually want sex workers to be earning an “honest living” rather than doing sex work. “You shouldn’t be doing porn, but we’ll fire you from legitimate work for having done it.”

Rage…

LBT
LBT
7 years ago

RE: leftwingfox

I’ve never understood the bullshit around “honest living” and “real job.” It’s like, if you’re getting paid to do it, that’s making a living. That’s a job. As long as you aren’t hurting anyone (and porn stars don’t seem to be in that category) I fail to see why it’s anyone’s business.

Also, the only reason you’d KNOW if someone was doing porn was if they told you, in which case, wow, how douchey, or if you WATCHED it. Markets exist for their consumers, so don’t pretend you’re squeaky clean, bro.

kittehserf
7 years ago

are there drop-bears? 🙁 Too expensive, and they shipped terrible.

Despite the name, they don’t like being dropped by postal workers.

Just read this aloud at work and my colleague said “A subtle but important distinction!”

😀

freemage – yay, thank you!

leftwingfox
7 years ago

Speaking as a dude who draws cartoons for a living, I agree with you, and I’m sorry if I came across as reinforcing that.

I’m just pissed at the conservative double-standard. “Work, not welfare. Get a Job, but that job! Get a loan! Can’t pay it back? Why did you get a loan then?”

LBT
LBT
7 years ago

RE: leftwingfox

No, no, it’s okay, I got that you weren’t fond of that trope. I just find it amusing how self-righteous people can get about some jobs. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t, really.

katz
7 years ago

I’ve never understood the bullshit around “honest living” and “real job.” It’s like, if you’re getting paid to do it, that’s making a living. That’s a job.

I’ve never understood “real life” or “the real world,” when used in contexts like “wait until you get out into the real world!” And where am I now, exactly?

LBT
LBT
7 years ago

RE: katz

And where am I now, exactly?

NARNIA. Yeah, there were a fair few people who seemed to be pretty deeply invested in my failure. “Oh, you THINK you’ll live outside the closet, but just wait till you get a touch of reality!” “Oh, you think you’re so oppressed, you little privileged child, just wait until REALITY hits you!” There’s a reason I wrote the Face Reality! strip.

I don’t know WHY those pains in the ass seem to care so deeply about how I run my life, but I wish they’d STFU. (And stop thinking I think I’m so oppressed, when all I want to do is sleep in a nice warm bed under a window and not fear starving to death.)

kittehserf
7 years ago

Narnia?

Where are the talking horses and cats, then? I feel robbed.

FromAfar
7 years ago

Seriously, what are the assholes trying to accomplish with those comments? Shaming her into not wanting to do porn anymore means she won’t make any new porn.

No. New. Porn.

Talk about shooting yourself in the dick.

Fibinachi
7 years ago

I’ve never understood “real life” or “the real world,” when used in contexts like “wait until you get out into the real world!” And where am I now, exactly?

In a location where their criticism can be held against actual evidence to you being happy or successful or experiencing joy, as opposed to some vaguely defined larger place that’s somehow more real and full of people who think the exact same way the speaker does, each and all ready to shoot down your ideas because they’re too whatever to match the “reality” of the situation.

It’s the “Everyone thinks that way!” of the bitter person.

Robert
Robert
7 years ago

To desire porn and deride the people who create it simultaneously is doublethink, plain and simple. And that’s not a good thing. Omnivores don’t mock people for working in slaughterhouses (that I know of), which is the first best comparison that comes to mind. Apparently, these badminded men feel that watching porn is a morally neutral act, but creating it is worthy of condemnation.

My brain hurts just trying to imagine it.

LBT
LBT
7 years ago

I have absolutely no trouble understanding it. Madonna/whore complex. Part of my Raping Year was pretty much constantly having to embody both, switching at the correct time so as not to upset the balance of things. He wanted a pliable virgin that he could corrupt and have complete sexual control over… but he also wanted me to be sexually masterful and willing to talk about all the dirty things we’d do together. Only not TOO much, because otherwise I’d lose the jailbait innocence he so adored.

Cognitive dissonance, you’re one hell of a drug.

Nitram
Nitram
7 years ago

Btw, my hubby’s an ex-Marine. He’s also a feminist and travels around the world training armies in men’s violence prevention to battle the sexual assault crisis in militaries spanning the globe. It’s a program to get men involved in the prevention and ditch the passive language (“men’s violence against women” vs just “violence against women”, “man raped woman” rather than “woman was raped” In an effort to empower men in prevention. Anyway, marines can rock and be sex gods! I could do without the “high and tight” haircut though.

Falconer
7 years ago

@LBT: There are very few people I want to punch in the face, but that asshole is quickly shaping up to go on the list.

I won’t do it and you probably don’t want it done, but just. Argh. I hope his dick falls off.

hookergal
hookergal
7 years ago

I kinda wonder if the “play” JS gets is from sex workers. I’m in my 20s and the easiest clients to get are those middle aged. And the whole “I’m a middle aged nice blah blah blah” occurs multiple times daily on my phone. It’s BS. I know it. But guess what? I’m super sweet & I’m super keen! Why? Cos I’m super attracted to the cash you pay to see & touch me. The end. Thanks for playing JS. I’ll see you next booking. Bring the $$$

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
7 years ago

I can’t imagine why any attractive young woman would have sex with him if he wasn’t paying for it. It’s certainly wouldn’t be because of his charming personality or scintillating conversational skills.

kittehserf
7 years ago

I can’t imagine why anyone, no specifics needed, would have sex with him if he wasn’t paying for it. He’s got nothing going for him.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
7 years ago

To be fair, having him drone on at you might be an effective sleep aid, so maybe people with insomnia?

kittehserf
7 years ago

Too risky having him around when you’d fallen asleep.

Gah.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
7 years ago

Scratching post for the cat? I know that in theory all people have some inherent value, but I’m kind of struggling to find any in this case.

kittehserf
7 years ago

I wouldn’t want my kitties getting that muck under their claws.

I guess he’ll make reasonable fertiliser eventually.

Ewww, now there’s an argument against Soylent Green: there’s an awful lot of trolls, misogynists, and general douchecanoes I wouldn’t like to ingest.

hookergal
hookergal
7 years ago

I’m sure he’d baulk at my suggestion he pays. The PUAs/MRAs don’t want to admit they can’t get laid any other way. I am so cut throat in my personal life. Because I know I have to be polite to get clients. But for more of this BS I would suggest a view of escort reviews. It’s freaking mills & boon type sexual scenes that I know didn’t occur. But far out are their penises mighty in their recounts! Lol.

Skanky Tits
7 years ago

All this talk of “escalating” and trying to move the target to an isolated location is straight out of a women’s self defense manual :/

Angela Wilson Jahnel
7 years ago

“Women respond to this because sex is virtually all they think about…” This guy seriously knows nothing about women. From what I’ve heard, it is usually men who think about sex 24/7. Women’s brains are too busy running 100 miles an hour, and multitasking 10 things at once to really think much about sex. If the woman is married and has kids, then most likely, sex is the furthest thing from her mind. Don’t get me wrong, I love having sex with my husband, but I don’t really think about sex much until he gets my attention. My brain is just too busy adding items to my grocery list, wondering if I should take the car into the shop, trying to remember what time I need to take my son to the pediatrician, adding laundry to my “to do” list, wondering if I have time to mow the lawn before it gets dark outside, etc, etc, etc…

vaiyt
7 years ago

Shaming her into not wanting to do porn anymore means she won’t make any new porn.

Please. There will be always new women to take part in porn. What they want is to make sure they’re properly threatened and miserable while doing it. Women can have sex, they’re just not allowed to LIKE it.

leatapp
leatapp
7 years ago

Angela,
I’m married with kids. Maybe it’s an individual thing rather than a gender based one. You know what I’m often thinking about while I’m going about my domestic stuff like waiting at the pediatrician’s office, running errands, doing yard work, etc? Clue: not groceries.

leatapp
leatapp
7 years ago

vaiyt,
“Women can have sex, they’re just not allowed to LIKE it.”
You hit that nail firmly on the head.

Falconer
7 years ago

@Angela: Thanks, you make me sound like a slacker, sitting around all day thinking about going at it while Beloved does all the work.

Getting groceries and washing dishes and stuff like that leaves plenty of time to think about sex.

Actually, I think I spend more time hoping we both have enough energy at the end of the day to even consider getting our mutual freak on than actually thinking about The Marital Act.

leatapp
leatapp
7 years ago

Falconer,

“Actually, I think I spend more time hoping we both have enough energy at the end of the day to even consider getting our mutual freak on than actually thinking about The Marital Act.”

For you: http://bensbargains.net/thecheckout/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/beeker-chewbacca.jpg

Kootiepatra
Kootiepatra
7 years ago

Even if you buy the whole “women want to be led” line, you know what makes leading/following a whole lot easier? *Communication*.