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Don’t Ask: A Middle-Aged Man’s Creepy Roadmap to a Woman’s “Secret Garden.”

Escalation to the sex location
Escalation to the sex location

Sometimes I scour the internet for hours in search of material for this blog. Other times it just plops right in my lap. Today, it plopped, in the form of a new visitor to this blog by the name of J.S., a 52-year-old married farmer (he said) who brought with him some very old-fashioned ideas about love and romance and how men can best access the “secret gardens” of the pretty ladies of the world.

No, really, he did,proclaming himself an infallable guide to

the ‘secret language’( sub and non-verbal communication), the dating game, or how very attractive women go about choosing which men they let into their secret garden and which ones they don’t.

The primary lesson he tried to impart: that the “secret garden” is a little bit like Fight Club: The first rule of Secret Garden is that dudes can never ask to enter Secret Garden.

As he put it:

You never ask a feminine woman ‘what she wants’.

If you ask what she wants, you will kill the attraction immediately.

Her desire is to be led by a masculine man.

This is what bad boys do. They don’t really give a shyt about her. It’s all about them and the conquest. Women respond to this because sex is virtually all they think about and nice guys are always supplicating towards her hoping she’ll give them the go ahead to seduce and have sex with her. Wrong, wrong, wrong. You’d might as well let your child drive your car on your next vacation.

Oh, he later amended this a tiny bit. You can ask a woman if she wants to have sex if, like, you’re already married to her or something. But you can never ask to enter her Secret Garden unless you’ve already entered her Secret Garden.

The fact is, you don’t ask women to have sex unless you’ve known them for a good while, or are in a relationship. And you never ask them to ‘have sex’ before you’ve actually had sex with them the first time. Or the only thing you’ll be getting is a cold shoulder.

So if you can’t actually use human language to find out if you can enter her Secret Garden, how can you enter for the first time  it without, you know, being “falsely” accused of rape or something?

As they say in real estate, it’s all about escalation to the sex location, location, location.

Ok, that’s not exactly what they say in real estate. But here’s J.S., explaining the proper way to open her garden gates:

[W]hen interacting with a woman there should be only one thing on your mind… Is it cocky, funny? Is it humor. Is it talking about the weather? Nope. It’s about escalation to the sex location. If you don’t do this, you will be disrespected as a man, and find yourself lonely.

I’m sorry, I’m still stuck on “escalation to the sex location.”

escalation to the sex location

escalation to the sex location

escalation to the sex location

escalation to the sex location

Once you get her to the sex location, though, it’s important to remember not to ask her anything about her Secret Garden, or really anything at all. By agreeing to go to your sex location — probably just your apartment — she basically is agreeing to you groping all over her trying to get into her Secret Garden.

I mean, this is all covered in your basic Being A Human manual, but in case you missed it I’m just repeating it.

Anyway, once you’re both there, you need to keep escalating so that sex will “just happen” without anyone checking in with anyone else verbally or anything, because actually getting some sort of verbal go-ahead for anything sexual is totally against nature.

This is why women are so fond of the expression, it just happened.

Again, nope it doesn’t ‘just happen’. It happens early in relationships because she allows him to be alone with her, allows herself to become aroused, then doesn’t resist.

Then the relationship starts.

Let me just repeat the bit I put in bold there:

she allows him to be alone with her, allows herself to become aroused, then doesn’t resist.

That may be the creepiest, rapiest description of sex (and/or the start of a relationship) that I think I may have ever read.

Remember, dudes, according to J.S.’s Rules of Secret Garden you are supposed to keep escalating (in the sex location), but you are never, ever, ever to ask her if anything you are doing is ok with her.

But ladies, if you want things to stop, you need to answer the question he hasn’t actually asked with a clear verbal “no” or “stop” or, you know, you could fight him.

Because it is so important that men never ask a woman for consent that it’s better for women to be put in the position where they have to literally fight off their dates to make clear they don’t want to have sex, rather than simply have a very brief conversation that would make the issue of consent completely clear.

The evil genius of this “don’t ask, because if you ask she’ll say no because you asked” formulation — which is common amongst MRAs, PUAs, and assorted other rape apologists — is that it puts the responsibility for date rape not on (male) rapists but on their (female) victims by making the issue of consent entirely her responsibility and giving him an excuse to pretend he didn’t know she wasn’t consenting.

I didn’t know she wasn’t into it, the rapist can say, because it’s not like I could just ask.

But of course you could have. You should have. The responsibility for obtaining sexual consent belongs to whoever is “escalating” the sex. If there is any any doubt about anything at any point, ask. Using actual words.

Yes, potential partners are likely to be turned off by neediness. But the idea that getting consent is the same as supplicating is ridiculous. And the idea that it is inherently unerotic will come as a surprise to anyone who’s ever engaged in cybering or phone sex or dirty talk in bed.

Are there really women out there who are so turned off, so offended, by the idea of a man asking for consent that they would reject a man they were interested in just because he asked, possibly in a charmingly filthy way, for a “yes” before he put his hand up her skirt?

They must exist. Louis CK has a famous bit about a baffling and unconsummated encounter he had many years ago with a woman who had what you might call an extreme “don’t ask first” fetish. I can only hope she eventually managed to find her way to a local BDSM group so she could explore her submissive fantasies in a safe, sane, and consensual way, as they say.

It’s bizarre to have to point this out, but, dudes: If a woman is into you, and into sex, she’s going to want to have sex with you even if you ask her first. Indeed, if her attraction to you is so fragile, and her sexuality so dependent on fantasies of being “taken” that merely asking her to have sex is enough to kill the attraction, well, you’ve probably dodged a bullet, to be perfectly honest.

Making consent clear is good for both partners. Not only does it, you know, prevent rape, but it makes for better sex. The partner who “escalated” the sex knows that what they’re doing is ok with their partner, who, in turn, knows that they’re with someone who respects their boundaries.

When you talk about sex — before, during, and after — you can find out all sorts of things about what your partner likes and doesn’t. You can share your own personal kinks. This actually enables you to do a lot more sexually than people who don’t talk, even if the man in that relationship is the most alpha alpha who’s ever alphaed, because you don’t have to guess.

We have language for a reason. Use it. In bed.

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Bina
Bina
7 years ago

Applause, kudos and huzzahs to Fibi and JM!

Nope, I just made a post that was topic related to the guys here, on how to appeal to the fairer sex. You know, the ones that still have a hormone left.

Newsflash to JS, not that he’s likely to pay any attention to it here OR there:

Menopausal women still have a hormone left. It’s called estrone. Or, as Natalie Angier would put it, “estrone alone for the merry crone”. The fact that none of our hormones, estrone or otherwise, is interested in him or his made-up exploits maybe disconcerting to him, but that is Not Our Damn Fault.

Also, all his silly talk of Secret Gardens makes me think he’s been whacking off to Nancy Friday’s books…but sadly, hasn’t gotten far enough in to realize that a great many women’s fantasies remain just that, by choice, because reality doesn’t work that way.

LBT
LBT
7 years ago

RE: Buttercup

@LBT haha, “hanging bougainvillea”. If women have Secret Gardens, do men have Secret Mechanical Seeders? YOU’VE BEEN HOLDING OUT ON US.

MY GENITALS ARE DELICATE NIGHT-BLOOMING FLOWERS ONLY TO BE SHOWN TO MY HUSBAND. If you expose them to anyone else (including sunlight), they wither and die and THEN WON’T YOU BE SORRY.

RE: Nitram

I know that’s a lame compliment,

Dammit, Nitram, I just told Lili to stop using that! You too, whippersnapper!

kittehserf
7 years ago

I nominate Fibonachi for poet laureate of Manboobz.

I second this nomination!

Thirded, or n’thed, whichever comes first!

Nitram
Nitram
7 years ago

“Dammit, Nitram, I just told Lili to stop using that! You too, whippersnapper!”

I thought lame was like “wrong” or “off”. Like my horse has a lame foot. If it’s off limits here, I won’t use it, but I wanted to clarify I wasn’t coming from the derogatory “r*tard” side of things. I’ll be more careful.

kittehserf
7 years ago

What is it with these basement dwellers who think “Marine” automatically means “sexual god to all the wimminz”? Sorry, no, not the case. Just the opposite, in fact, if we’re talking stereotypes (and what else do trolls deal in?). If nothing else, buzz cut, ewwwwww nogrowyourhairforgodssake.

My secret lady garden is more of the informal wilderness variety, and the only person allowed in is a certain talented, attentive and sweet gardener. No slurry-bathing alleged farmers for me, kthnx.

I know that I thoroughly tested hubby out before I let him see my hanging bourgainvilla.

You’re just lucky I’d swallowed my tea, young feller-me-lad!

Damnit, JS, who is almost certiany MICHAEL, I made this whole new post about you and you only want to play with the old one.

What? You mean he’s not living DIRECTLY ON THE BEACH anymore? He’s moved to NC or somewhere, given up his lucrative law practice, got married and taken to farming?

MY FAITH IN HUMANITY IS SHATTERED

He must be aiming for Troll of the Year. Granted, given the competition, he’s a shoo-in at this stage.

LBT
LBT
7 years ago

RE: Nitram

I thought lame was like “wrong” or “off”

Yeeessss, but there’s a reason WHY lameness/physical disability is associated with ‘wrong’ or ‘off.’ Just don’t do it again, okay?

kittehserf
7 years ago

LBT, loved the anniversary pic of you two linked in the other thread. It’s just gorgeous.

ignotussomnium
ignotussomnium
7 years ago

We had it wrong this whole time! He lives on a beech tree farm!

LBT
LBT
7 years ago

RE: Kittehs

Thanks! I really love it. It’s up on the family wall, next to the family portraits and little sketches of us over the years. It really reminds me of how happy I am with hubby and how grateful I am to have him in my life.

sparky
sparky
7 years ago

We had it wrong this whole time! He lives on a beech tree farm!

His “penthouse” must really be a treehouse.

wordsp1nner
wordsp1nner
7 years ago

I just want to comment on this part:

You’d might as well let your child drive your car on your next vacation.

Well, yes, if your child has a license/learner’s permit, you probably should let them drive any vacation where you have your own car and don’t have to worry about rental issues. First, it will give you a break. Second, if its a road trip, you can have them learn driving they wouldn’t normally do and learn the techniques and etiquette–i.e., when in four-lane roads in the country, it is polite to move to the left when people are merging if there is little traffic, whereas in the city you just maintain speed and try to leave them an opening.

My family often travels from Oregon to Wyoming, which is a two-day drive both ways. Yes, you switch drivers every few hours. When I still had my learner’s permit, they managed to have me driving over what seemed like every single spot of road construction between Oregon and Wyoming. I also learned to drive in high winds on one of those trips.

So, just like asking a woman if she wants to have sex, letting your child drive your car is an excellent idea under certain circumstances.

LBT
LBT
7 years ago

RE: wordsp1nner

Oh man, I remember assisting in the long drive from San Antonio, TX to Phoenix AZ as a teenager. It rained. It poured. Possibly it hailed. Very educational.

emilygoddess
7 years ago

Fibinachi is a god.

And PUAs can complain all they want that asking isn’t sexy, but they’re probably just doing it wrong. Guys, my partner can give you some tips, if you like. He’s probably a beta mangina or whatever, but he’s very, very good at sexy talk.

As for “secret garden,” yeah, it was the title of a groundbreaking study of women’s sexual fantasies, but it still sounds ridiculous, especially when said by guys like this.

kittehserf
7 years ago

I never read that one, though I know the title. I did read Women on Top.

We had it wrong this whole time! He lives on a beech tree farm!

Bring on the plant puns!

If there are any left, that is.

Bina
Bina
7 years ago

If you have to ask by referring to it as a “secret garden”, then no, asking isn’t sexy. It’s silly and inane. Much better just to waggle your eyebrows and say “Hey, you wanna?”

LBT
LBT
7 years ago

Psh, secret garden? I have a secret forest island LAIR! With laserguns and kangaroos and BOURGAINVILLA!

bbeaty
bbeaty
7 years ago

“Surely as a lady I already know the secret lady code to the secret lady garden.

(The garden is my vagina.)”

… wait … THAT’s what he’s talking about?

Brooked
Brooked
7 years ago

JS is not 52 year old farmer? How not shocking. I can’t not believe it.

bbeaty
bbeaty
7 years ago

Also, if a guy is a basement dweller (no shame in it, dudes, I’ve lived in one or two) does that mean he’d deescalate to the fornication location?

Robert
Robert
7 years ago

Regarding sex god ex-Marines, I had a FWB/FB a couple of decades ago. He was a marvelous bottom, with a wicked sense of humor. Probably not the image J.S. was hoping to elicit in his audience, but few of his hopes panned out.

LBT
LBT
7 years ago

RE: bbeaty

Nah, nah, basements aren’t ritzy enough. Guy would totally have to destair to the masturbation location.

opium4themasses
opium4themasses
7 years ago

Does this mean vaginas are like fight club?

Wait, sex would be fight club … and now I am skeeved.

Buttercup Q. Skullpants
Buttercup Q. Skullpants
7 years ago

MY GENITALS ARE DELICATE NIGHT-BLOOMING FLOWERS ONLY TO BE SHOWN TO MY HUSBAND. If you expose them to anyone else (including sunlight), they wither and die and THEN WON’T YOU BE SORRY.

Oh, LBT, you only think your night-blooming flowers need darkness and privacy. Farmer John here says what they really want is Agent Orange and Roundup, and he’s the expert.

Huh, I just got a popup that said “Google Maps would like to use your current sex location”. Should I allow?

kittehserf
7 years ago

If you have to ask by referring to it as a “secret garden”, then no, asking isn’t sexy. It’s silly and inane. Much better just to waggle your eyebrows and say “Hey, you wanna?”

It’d work if the conversation was already silly and giggly and probably headed for sexytimes anyway … though it is possible the giggling would take over instead. But then, with a real lover, not someone who thinks the alternatives are ask and be rejected/commit rape, that wouldn’t be a bad thing either. Having fun and laughing together is pretty damn sexy in my book.

Psh, secret garden? I have a secret forest island LAIR! With laserguns and kangaroos and BOURGAINVILLA!

It’s bougainvillea, man! 😀

It’s all very well having laserguns and kangaroos, but are there drop-bears? It doesn’t get really dangerous unless there are drop-bears.

kittehserf
7 years ago

Farmer John here says what they really want is Agent Orange and Roundup, and he’s the expert.

If the only choice was between them and him, with no opt-out … yeah, I’d take them.

vaiyt
7 years ago

Why do so many men think that women are inscrutable alien beings???

kittehserf
7 years ago

Because it makes it easier for them to think of us as lesser, and creatures they don’t have to bother treating as equals?

vaiyt
7 years ago

Not to mention all the people who came here to lecture women on how to decode the super secret inscrutability of women. And I’m just a relative newbie to this site.

freemage
freemage
7 years ago

They don’t really give a shyt about her. It’s all about them and the conquest. Women respond to this because sex is virtually all they think about and nice guys are always supplicating towards her hoping she’ll give them the go ahead to seduce and have sex with her.

Okay, now, this is impressive. It’s actually not only asinine and rapey, but it’s asinine by the standards of PUA-dom. This is not an easy task, and I’m genuinely impressed that this guy is this incredibly horribly bad at brain.

I assume that in JS’s world, after women give the cold shoulder to men after being asked (while craving sex) if they want sex, they go out to restaurants, because they’re hungry, only to throat-punch the waiter when he asks if they’d like something to eat. Then, later, when they get home and are exhausted from lack of food, when a family member asks if they want some sleep, they immediately shake said family member like a mariachi and jab a needle into their arm to stay awake.

At least the normal PUA scenario makes a kind of internal sense, so long as you have no experience with actual women, and assume that the whole ‘sexual gatekeeper’ scenario is a real thing. This twitterbrain doesn’t even have that to fall back on–he simultaneously believes that women think about sex all the time, are just dying for it–but refuse to have sex with anyone with the temerity to ask.

JS! Those aren’t women! You’re surrounded by lifelike androids who’ve had the polarity of their logic-circuits reversed! RUN WHILE YOU STILL CAN!!

kittehserf
7 years ago

Vaiyt – mansplaining is one of the great human rights, according to this lot! 😀

freemage – “bad at brain,” I am so stealing that. Though it does make him sound a bit Winnie the Pooh-ish, which is way too kind to him and way to harsh to the Bear of Very Little Brain.

Even if sex was virtually all women think about, JS has stuffed up (again) in talking as if any ol’ man would do, as long as he doesn’t actually talk. If I’m thinking about sex it’s with a specific person, not just sex with some random. I know I don’t speak for every woman, obviously, but shit, JS doesn’t speak for any of us.

Once again, of course, the dweeb talks as if “asking” or even “talking about” sex means a man is pleading and begging and supplicating, presumably while cross-eyed with pain from his priapic condition. Um, nope. It can be as simple as “Whatcha fancy, breakfast or making love?”

(Okay, that was me asking Le Spouse, and he wanted to fill his belly, but still, the question could have been asked the other way around. I guess he still rates as a Real Man since he was thinking about bacon, yes?)

House Mouse Queen
7 years ago

Every time someone mentions green things I’m going to be thinking ‘slit ass birch ho’

Botany is RUINED for me!!!

vaiyt
7 years ago

And every time I play Plants vs. Zombies now I’m going to imagine the zombies as being PUAs.

Instead of brains you have vaginas, and the zombies are all “Grarr! Friendzone!”

sugarvonmurderertits
7 years ago

You people are hilarious. But who is Michael?

AIT
AIT
7 years ago

Damn you, Manboobz! And by that, I mean, damn my slow reading skills! I can hardly keep up with the pace here. I started an hour or two ago and still am not caught up on the necrothread. So really more damn the troll. So many different voices in his writing, and they all ring to the tune of disgusting.

If I did not have to hear words spoken out as I read them, I would try to keep up with this. As it is, I will simply drive by and say I am so lurking these threads, and it is an entertaining show. Mostly by the actual Manboobzers. Those are voices I love hearing.

Please, keep being awesome, all of you.

ignotussomnium
ignotussomnium
7 years ago

Somewhat OT, but on twitter the top trending hashtag right now is apparently liestoldbyfemales. Not ladies, women, or even girls. Females. Are we talking someone’s female parrot who told them their hair looked great like that no really? Female chimps who use sign language to lie about who took the last apple?

katz
7 years ago

But some of the tweets are really funny.

kittehserf
7 years ago

sugarvonmurdertits – ahahaha, you’ve a treat in store. Michael, aka JS’s earlier incarnation, necroed a thread here, and contributed to Manboobz lore with his rantings about SPINSTERS and being a lawyer who lives DIRECTLY ON THE BEACH in LA (this being before he transformed into a farmer in one or other of the Carolinas).

Be warned though, he rants on for pages and pages.

BTW, have you had a welcome package yet?

kittehserf
7 years ago

ignotussomnium – no, it’s kitties who say their bowl’s empty and they’re staaaaarving. (No Mads, of course I’m not looking at you. Perish the thought.)

Angela Jones-Parker
7 years ago

It’s so bad but when the post goes to

escalation to the sex location

escalation to the sex location

escalation to the sex location

escalation to the sex location

I channeled OMD’s “Locomotion”.

I guess that’s the next step after walking down the sidewalks, running down the boardwalks, etc.

kittehserf
7 years ago

Now I’m hearing bits from Summer in the City by the Lovin’ Spoonful.

All around, people looking half dead
Walking on the sidewalk, hotter than a match head

Cool cat, looking for a kitty
Gonna look in every corner of the city
Till I’m wheezing like a bus stop
Running up the stairs, gonna meet you on the rooftop

NonServiam
NonServiam
7 years ago

Ahhh, what a creepy creepster!

sugarvonmurderertits
7 years ago

kittehserf: thanks for the link and the welcome package! I see I have some reading in store. Best go get another cup of coffee.

titianblue
titianblue
7 years ago

And J.s., Bruce Springstein’s “Secret Garden”. Not about vaginas. Seriously. Stop trying to spoil that song for me.

Jack Graham
7 years ago

As Terry Eagleton said “the major component of any sexual relationship is talk… or am I missing something?”

kittehserf
7 years ago

titianblue – but his Red Headed Woman was! He took great pleasure in embarrassing a minister-type from his youthful days by saying repeatedly what the song was about. Cunnilingus! Cunnilingus!

Naughty Mr Springsteen. 😀

sugarvonmurdertits – just be careful not to look at the screen while you have a mouthful of coffee. That thread’s likely to have you splurting it all over your monitor.

Buttercup Q. Skullpants
Buttercup Q. Skullpants
7 years ago

Not to mention all the people who came here to lecture women on how to decode the super secret inscrutability of women. And I’m just a relative newbie to this site.

Farmer JS was really here to lecture the men on Woman Handling tips. The women don’t count (except cupisnique). We have opinions, so clearly we’re all unfeminine and past our “sexual prime”.

Every time a woman has a thought, a leaf in her Secret Garden turns yellow and drifts slowly to the ground. Fact.

Now I’m hearing bits from Summer in the City by the Lovin’ Spoonful.

You’re lucky, kittehserf. I have Robert Hazard’s “Escalator of Life” stuck in my head.

sugarvonmurderertits
7 years ago

Damnit, JS, who is almost certiany MICHAEL, I made this whole new post about you and you only want to play with the old one.

It’s clear now why JS/Michael took his HB8, 23 year old girlfriend to Charlotte, NC.

It was to look at his farm.

titianblue
titianblue
7 years ago

I am impressed that David managed to find an image of a phallic escalator, though. 😉

Seranvali
Seranvali
7 years ago

This comment is seriously off topic but please bear with me because I thought the Australians here might want to see this if they haven’t done so already. I’ve been really down since the election and this helped a great deal. Why hadn’t I heard of this man?

http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/western-australia/ram-your-heartless-racist-exploitation-of-peoples-fears-wa-greens-senator-tells-pm-tony-abbott/story-fnhocxo3-1226846044049