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Don’t Ask: A Middle-Aged Man’s Creepy Roadmap to a Woman’s “Secret Garden.”

Escalation to the sex location
Escalation to the sex location

Sometimes I scour the internet for hours in search of material for this blog. Other times it just plops right in my lap. Today, it plopped, in the form of a new visitor to this blog by the name of J.S., a 52-year-old married farmer (he said) who brought with him some very old-fashioned ideas about love and romance and how men can best access the “secret gardens” of the pretty ladies of the world.

No, really, he did,proclaming himself an infallable guide to

the ‘secret language’( sub and non-verbal communication), the dating game, or how very attractive women go about choosing which men they let into their secret garden and which ones they don’t.

The primary lesson he tried to impart: that the “secret garden” is a little bit like Fight Club: The first rule of Secret Garden is that dudes can never ask to enter Secret Garden.

As he put it:

You never ask a feminine woman ‘what she wants’.

If you ask what she wants, you will kill the attraction immediately.

Her desire is to be led by a masculine man.

This is what bad boys do. They don’t really give a shyt about her. It’s all about them and the conquest. Women respond to this because sex is virtually all they think about and nice guys are always supplicating towards her hoping she’ll give them the go ahead to seduce and have sex with her. Wrong, wrong, wrong. You’d might as well let your child drive your car on your next vacation.

Oh, he later amended this a tiny bit. You can ask a woman if she wants to have sex if, like, you’re already married to her or something. But you can never ask to enter her Secret Garden unless you’ve already entered her Secret Garden.

The fact is, you don’t ask women to have sex unless you’ve known them for a good while, or are in a relationship. And you never ask them to ‘have sex’ before you’ve actually had sex with them the first time. Or the only thing you’ll be getting is a cold shoulder.

So if you can’t actually use human language to find out if you can enter her Secret Garden, how can you enter for the first time  it without, you know, being “falsely” accused of rape or something?

As they say in real estate, it’s all about escalation to the sex location, location, location.

Ok, that’s not exactly what they say in real estate. But here’s J.S., explaining the proper way to open her garden gates:

[W]hen interacting with a woman there should be only one thing on your mind… Is it cocky, funny? Is it humor. Is it talking about the weather? Nope. It’s about escalation to the sex location. If you don’t do this, you will be disrespected as a man, and find yourself lonely.

I’m sorry, I’m still stuck on “escalation to the sex location.”

escalation to the sex location

escalation to the sex location

escalation to the sex location

escalation to the sex location

Once you get her to the sex location, though, it’s important to remember not to ask her anything about her Secret Garden, or really anything at all. By agreeing to go to your sex location — probably just your apartment — she basically is agreeing to you groping all over her trying to get into her Secret Garden.

I mean, this is all covered in your basic Being A Human manual, but in case you missed it I’m just repeating it.

Anyway, once you’re both there, you need to keep escalating so that sex will “just happen” without anyone checking in with anyone else verbally or anything, because actually getting some sort of verbal go-ahead for anything sexual is totally against nature.

This is why women are so fond of the expression, it just happened.

Again, nope it doesn’t ‘just happen’. It happens early in relationships because she allows him to be alone with her, allows herself to become aroused, then doesn’t resist.

Then the relationship starts.

Let me just repeat the bit I put in bold there:

she allows him to be alone with her, allows herself to become aroused, then doesn’t resist.

That may be the creepiest, rapiest description of sex (and/or the start of a relationship) that I think I may have ever read.

Remember, dudes, according to J.S.’s Rules of Secret Garden you are supposed to keep escalating (in the sex location), but you are never, ever, ever to ask her if anything you are doing is ok with her.

But ladies, if you want things to stop, you need to answer the question he hasn’t actually asked with a clear verbal “no” or “stop” or, you know, you could fight him.

Because it is so important that men never ask a woman for consent that it’s better for women to be put in the position where they have to literally fight off their dates to make clear they don’t want to have sex, rather than simply have a very brief conversation that would make the issue of consent completely clear.

The evil genius of this “don’t ask, because if you ask she’ll say no because you asked” formulation — which is common amongst MRAs, PUAs, and assorted other rape apologists — is that it puts the responsibility for date rape not on (male) rapists but on their (female) victims by making the issue of consent entirely her responsibility and giving him an excuse to pretend he didn’t know she wasn’t consenting.

I didn’t know she wasn’t into it, the rapist can say, because it’s not like I could just ask.

But of course you could have. You should have. The responsibility for obtaining sexual consent belongs to whoever is “escalating” the sex. If there is any any doubt about anything at any point, ask. Using actual words.

Yes, potential partners are likely to be turned off by neediness. But the idea that getting consent is the same as supplicating is ridiculous. And the idea that it is inherently unerotic will come as a surprise to anyone who’s ever engaged in cybering or phone sex or dirty talk in bed.

Are there really women out there who are so turned off, so offended, by the idea of a man asking for consent that they would reject a man they were interested in just because he asked, possibly in a charmingly filthy way, for a “yes” before he put his hand up her skirt?

They must exist. Louis CK has a famous bit about a baffling and unconsummated encounter he had many years ago with a woman who had what you might call an extreme “don’t ask first” fetish. I can only hope she eventually managed to find her way to a local BDSM group so she could explore her submissive fantasies in a safe, sane, and consensual way, as they say.

It’s bizarre to have to point this out, but, dudes: If a woman is into you, and into sex, she’s going to want to have sex with you even if you ask her first. Indeed, if her attraction to you is so fragile, and her sexuality so dependent on fantasies of being “taken” that merely asking her to have sex is enough to kill the attraction, well, you’ve probably dodged a bullet, to be perfectly honest.

Making consent clear is good for both partners. Not only does it, you know, prevent rape, but it makes for better sex. The partner who “escalated” the sex knows that what they’re doing is ok with their partner, who, in turn, knows that they’re with someone who respects their boundaries.

When you talk about sex — before, during, and after — you can find out all sorts of things about what your partner likes and doesn’t. You can share your own personal kinks. This actually enables you to do a lot more sexually than people who don’t talk, even if the man in that relationship is the most alpha alpha who’s ever alphaed, because you don’t have to guess.

We have language for a reason. Use it. In bed.

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hellkell
hellkell
6 years ago

J.S. calls it “secret garden” because he’s never been. May as well be Narnia.

fromafar2013
6 years ago

Ahhhh! I love it! 😀

magnesium
magnesium
6 years ago

The idea that sex needs to be a surprise to be sexy has always struck me as complete bullshit. I’ve always found built-up anticipation to be far sexier than spontaneity. But then, every PUA/TRP/MRA description of sex I’ve ever read has sounded boring to downright unpleasant for the (possibly imaginary) woman involved, so something tells me they don’t care that much whether women actually like having sex with them or not.

Fibinachi
6 years ago

I’ll just repost my contribution and leave it at that.

Once upon a morning bleary, while I wondered weak and weary
Over many a quaint and curious brand of coffee lore
While I nodded, gently roasting , suddenly there came a boasting
As if some one gently ghosting, ghosting at the threads from yore
“’God damn necroes,” I muttered, “Posting at the threads of yore –
Only this, and nothing more”

Ah, devouring a bagel, I checked the post from foregone April,
And each separate new comment wrought a mess upon the floor
Eagerly the poster resurrected , – vainly, pasts I thought protected –
and great truth interjected – interjected ‘bout his fascination quite a bore –
Now in this comment section evermore

And the silken sad uncertain rustling of each purple prose
Thrilled me – filled me with fantastic terrors, he was quite a bore;
So that now, to still the beating of my heart, I stood repeating
“’Tis some necro entreating, gently repeating, all the points that’s gone before-
Some necro-poster entreating, once again repeating, all the point’s gone before –
This it is, and nothing more’

Presently, my ire grew stronger, laughing then no longer,
“Sir”, I said, “Or troll, truly your understanding I implore;
But the fact is you are sapping, ever quite so deftly trapping
Just persistently rapping, rapping the points that come before,
That I scare was sure you meant it – have I said essentialism do abhor;-
You’re mistaken and nothing more.

Deep into that darkness peering, long I sat here wondering, fearing,
doubting, screaming, screaming things many mortals have said before;
“But a woman is no object, surely you can treat her as a subject,
And only press for sex when the whispered word is, “More!”
This I whispered, and an echo mumbled that the trick was to, “Ignore!”
Merely that and nothing more.

Back into the chamber turning, all my mind within me burning,
Soon again I heard a boasting, somewhat louder than before
“Surely,” said He, “Surely it is somewhat in my bearing,
Let you see then, what the trick is, and on this subject be a bore –
Let my mouth be not still a moment, and my audience I bore;-
‘Tis quite simple, you must their attentions but ignore!”

Then this old and world-wise farmer began beguiling my sad fancy into smiling,
‘By the grave and stern decorum of the countenance that I wore,
Though they got on their knee and flashed, though’ said he, ‘ they sure flirt
Ghastly grim I lost my job, it hurt, and I will wander from their door –
Tell you what the lordly deed is to get the nighttime Dionysussian score’
Qouth the poster, such a bore

Much I marveled at this ungainly fool to hear discourse so plainly,
Though its statements little thought – little empathy bore;
For he cannot help agreeing that no living human being
Ever yet was blessed with getting laid without a going through a chore
Man or female in their couplings always follow a guidelines one or four,
Foremost of which will be ‘Ignore!.’

But the poster, sitting lonely on some placid farm, wrote only,
Of a system, as if his soul in that one system he did outpour.
Nothing further then he uttered – nor a neuron was fluttered –
Till I scarecely more than shuddered ‘Other people have had friends before!
On their beds and in their hearts, they have had their friends before!’
Then the necro wrote: “… Ignored!”

Startled at the standard broken by a reply so aptly token,
‘Doubtless,’ said I ‘what it utters is its only stock and store,
caught from some unhappy master whom unmerciful disaster
Followed fast and followed faster till his songs one burden bore –
Till the dirges of his hope that melancholy burden bore
Of “Ignore-ignore-ignore!”

(That one required very little remixing.
Huh)

But the necro still beguiling all my bleary soul into smiling,
Straight I wheeled a seat in front of pc and section and read more;
Then, upon the hardbacked chair wincing, I betook myself to convincing
Farmer unto fancy, thinking that I might his decency implore –
Alas, a grim, ungainly, ghastly gaunt and stunted thing was all he had, the bore
Meant his croaking of “Ignore!”

‘Manboobz!” Wrote He, “thing of females! – Manboobz still, if man or mangina! –
Whether you have been into the garden, or whether temper tossed thee outside the bedroom door
Desolate yet all undaunted, on this desert of dates I’ve expounded –
On this heart horror haunted – tell me truly, I implore –
Is there, – do you get it, Lead! – tell me – tell me, I implore
Do you understand you must ignore?!

“Manboobz” wrote he, “Thing of females – Manboobz still, if man or mangina!
By the solipsistic mind that bends before you – by that empathy I tore –
Tell you how to speak the secret language, subcommunicate your desire
It shall clasp a saintly maiden, she’ll fuck you!’ so he swore
‘Screw a feminine and female maiden, if you do but Ignore!”
Qouth the poster, such a bore.

‘I’m a charming southern man, a marine a gent!’ He shrieked, upstarting –
‘I’m quite the catch and likable, and offered Dionysian activities galore!
You’re all old coots, and your resistance token, the truths that I have spoken!
Leave no refutations not ignored! There is no way I am a bore!
Take it straight from me, I get into lots of gardens, I find it not a chore!
I have learned the greatest lesson; I ignore!

And this necro, never quitting, still is sitting, still is shitting
on the pallid pretense of understanding in the section, still a bore
And his statements have all the seeming of a demon that is dreaming,
And the gaslight flows from him, streaming, shows his aloud arrogance (the bore)
And my soul is gently fleeing, fleeing form that immense ineptitude of common sense galore

For all he is, is a but a bore.

EVER MORE

—-

*takes up space*

contrapangloss
6 years ago

Well, that was interesting. Thanks, David! Necrotroll was disturbing and tedious…

Fibonachi’s poem in the thread is still awesome, though.

marinaliteyears
marinaliteyears
6 years ago

Wow, I feel so very “privileged” to have been around seeing this unfold before it became an article!

Props though, for focusing the blog post on the creepy logic of that guy. he went through a lot of it, even without getting into the goofy angle changing bs, and trying to frame himself as the ‘sympathetic’ type.

Shiraz
Shiraz
6 years ago

**applause**

oraclenine
6 years ago

I nominate Fibonachi for poet laureate of Manboobz.

leatapp
leatapp
6 years ago

Thanks, David. How creepy is it that dudes spout that rapey garbage? JS was sure that any woman who was ever alone in a room with him was hoping he’d jump her bones. That’s just scary.

I find myself thinking that he missed his opportunity to write, “Escalation to the fornication location”.

Well done, Fibinachi.

gillyrosebee
gillyrosebee
6 years ago

Tedious necro troll was tedious, but worth every excruciating second for inspiring Fibinachi’s exquisite work up there!

weirwoodtreehugger
6 years ago

js isn’t even here to revel in his newfound fame!

Shiraz
Shiraz
6 years ago

It’s the headline, I’m sure he wanted to be called Sex Machine, not creepy middle-aged dude.

weirwoodtreehugger
6 years ago

Or “former marine.”

gillyrosebee
gillyrosebee
6 years ago

He’s still over in the old thread laying down his “troofax”, namely

So she’s free to string Mr. long term provider along while I attend to her more immediate ‘needs’.

And with this example of “alpha fucks/beta bucks” I have bingo! What do I win?

cloudiah
6 years ago

I nominate Fibonachi for poet laureate of Manboobz.

I second this nomination!

katz
6 years ago

I’m cracking up that middle-aged married farmers are now the “alphas.”

sparky
sparky
6 years ago

Y’know, non-verbal communication really isn’t a “secret language.” Many people pick up on non-verbal cues pretty easily. You can google “guide to non-verbal communication” and get all kinds of results.

Usually, if you can find something through Google, it’s not really all that secret.

cloudiah
6 years ago

Aren’t middle-aged married farmers more like “alfalfas?”

(It had to be said.)

gillyrosebee
gillyrosebee
6 years ago

Well, katz, you know how we women love to have our secret gardens tended to! Who better, who more perfectly suited to such a task, than a farmer?

JM
JM
6 years ago

“I find myself thinking that he missed his opportunity to write, “Escalation to the fornication location”. ”

Or even better, “Escalation to the fornication location, by embarkation at the station, to your accommodation, where you aim for exploitation of your situation by ceasing the dispensation of all communication, and beginning a capitalisation of her trepidation.”

Raps by PUA/MRAs! What an abomination!

Sam-I-Was?
Sam-I-Was?
6 years ago

@Fibinachi

Standing up and giving you a slow golf clap. That was truly a thing of beauty.

Fibinachi
6 years ago

I vote for JM as poet laureate of Manboobz.

cloudiah
6 years ago

“Escalation to the fornication location, by embarkation at the station, to your accommodation, where you aim for exploitation of your situation by ceasing the dispensation of all communication, and beginning a capitalisation of her trepidation.”

We’ve actually had rap battles here before.

More than once, in fact.

Fibinachi
6 years ago

Those are beautiful.

Thank you, cloudiah. Your blog is delightful, and holds many gems.

… so hey, thank you, everyone on Manboobz, for being full of win.

katz
6 years ago

Aren’t middle-aged married farmers more like “alfalfas?”

Well, katz, you know how we women love to have our secret gardens tended to! Who better, who more perfectly suited to such a task, than a farmer?

AHAHA STOP IT YOU GUYS ARE KILLING ME

scarlettpipstrelle
6 years ago

Fibinachi for the win!

cloudiah
6 years ago

Speaking of creepy middle-aged men, #mrapickuplines is trending on twitter. Someone with more followers than I have should suggest some from JS.

Shaenon
6 years ago

I’ll never get why creepers always want to share their amazing seduction tips with groups of what they assume are women (and ugly, man-hating feminist women, at that). What are we supposed to get out of these pearls of wisdom? Surely as a lady I already know the secret lady code to the secret lady garden.

(The garden is my vagina.)

thebewilderness
thebewilderness
6 years ago

Criminy! The more he writes the more repulsive he waxes.

ignotussomnium
ignotussomnium
6 years ago

Whaaat the fuck is with guys who think that if a woman is alone with you she is implicitly consenting to sex? That’s not how anything works! Obviously they’ve never had female friends, but have they never had to work with women? Been on the bus with one? Most people just do not think that way.

Joseph Callahan (@Flashlastic)

Escalation to the Sex Location is, clearly, the ultimate ’80s hair band name. What a missed opportunity J.S. that he did not think of it sooner.

Shaenon
6 years ago

Oh, man, reading the original thread… yes, kind sir, please give me the dating advice I need to snag an old, married, anti-feminist farmer in the boonies who’s still bitter about not getting laid in high school 40 years ago. That sounds dreamy.

I totally believe you are still as ripped as you were when you were in the Marines (which, if it happened, happened back while I was busy being a fetus) and your North Carolina accent is exotic as hell. Are you on Tinder?

hellkell
hellkell
6 years ago

Us horny wimmens is swarming him. I bet his kink is being mocked, it almost has to be at this point.

cloudiah
6 years ago

I love that he hasn’t yet figured out that this post exists, even though we’ve been telling him.

I thought farmers were more internet savvy these days.

gillyrosebee
gillyrosebee
6 years ago

Well, now I understand it all. Of course he thinks he’s the biggest stud in the stable: he interprets all attention as good attention. Pointing and laughing at him is all just evidence that we’re crazy with lust.

Nope, I just made a post that was topic related to the guys here, on how to appeal to the fairer sex. You know, the ones that still have a hormone left.

And suddenly all you horny women started swarming me, sight unseen.

Fibinachi, pecunium, David, all the maleboobzers, are you paying attention? Hie yourselves on over there! Farmer JS is pulling the straight dope (right out of his ass) solely for your benefit here! Git to the escalating, guys! Our secret gardens aren’t tending themselves!!!

Parenthetically, this is why I love feeding trolls until they explode: invariably all the nasty, gross stuff (unexamined privilege, petulant, delusional entitlement, troglodyte social mores) in there just spills out for all to see.

Fibinachi
6 years ago

Jeez, gillyrosebee, I wrote him poetry already. Now I have to hie myself over there and plow the soil now ladden with fertile assfaxx?

Only if I don’t have to scrounge for chocolate, too! The poor man would just explode from the attention we all piled on him!

Odd chap, that.

(And also, thanks to contrapangloss fromafar2013 Shiraz oraclenine leatapp gillyrosebee cloudiah Sam-I-Was? scarlettpipstrelle for the kind words. )

——–

Side-note: What is with the general troll routine of “To Get Women, Do XX”, “Ah, But I Do XX, So I Get Women, You Are All Wrong”, “Actually I Am Very Likable And Lovely, And Also A Marine, I Do XX”, “You Are All Cats And Not Femine”, “No, You Are Stupid!”, “Seriously, I Am A Marine, And Do XX To Get Women”, “Ha Ha, You Are All Just Horny Women Who Want Me, Because I Am Doing XX!”

It’s like a weird circle, where they’ve already decided the outcome of any conversation with anything they percieve to be female, disregard the content of the conversation, and just reboot and rethread at some point. Mikey did the same, Obsidian, others my scattered brain have long since assigned to oblivion.

It’s oddly like talking to someone who is sure they’ve found Enlightenment.

sparky
sparky
6 years ago

I’ll never get why creepers always want to share their amazing seduction tips with groups of what they assume are women (and ugly, man-hating feminist women, at that). What are we supposed to get out of these pearls of wisdom? Surely as a lady I already know the secret lady code to the secret lady garden.

I can only assume its to frighten us ball-busting feminists out of our evil misandrist ways and into proper passive femininity. They’ve figured out the secret code, after all! It’s only a matter of time before feminism is totally destroyed!

LBT
LBT
6 years ago

how very attractive women go about choosing which men they let into their secret garden and which ones they don’t.

Men do it too! I know that I thoroughly tested hubby out before I let him see my hanging bourgainvilla. I mean, there’s sex, and there’s marriage, but then there’s gardening. Gotta have standards, don’tcha know.

Also Fibinachi, you are always a joy. JM, you’re definitely getting into the same ballpark of awesomery.

weirwoodtreehugger
6 years ago

I prefer to think of my secret garden as more of a Myrish Swamp. Seriously, if a guy got that reference he really would have increased chances of being allowed in.

Lili Fugit
Lili Fugit
6 years ago

This might be misandrist of me, but neither “marine” nor “farmer” are turn-ons for my secret lady garden, so he’d strike out with or without speech to aid him. I also don’t like mimes or guessing games or being surprised or having assumptions made about me either, and I’m not crazy about anyone who thinks all women are exactly the same.

Oh, yeah, and I have a weird, feminist hangup about married dudes. Just gonna throw that out there.

That said, of all the lame shit he shat, that bit about how women say “it just happened” was just about the dumbest excuse for suggesting that rape is WAY cooler than communication that I have ever read, and I’ve read a lot of lame fucking shit like this. Seriously, Damn.

SpleenyBaggage
SpleenyBaggage
6 years ago

I live in a third-floor apartment, and I’ve long wished for a garden. Turns out I’ve had one all along, which great news! Can I just go ahead and start planting in my secret garden, or should I bring in some quality topsoil first to give it a head-start? I’ll also need to check with my local council on whether I can keep chickens in my secret garden. So much to do…

LBT
LBT
6 years ago

RE: Lili

Aw, don’t use ‘lame,’ Lili. Don’t be like that.

Also, it’s true! For me, sex just happens all the time! I’m just walking along, minding my business, and then suddenly me and hubby trip and fall out of our clothes, into bed, on top of each other, and then I don’t know, orgasms just HAPPEN! I swear, it’s like magic!

Buttercup Q. Skullpants
Buttercup Q. Skullpants
6 years ago

@LBT haha, “hanging bougainvillea”. If women have Secret Gardens, do men have Secret Mechanical Seeders? YOU’VE BEEN HOLDING OUT ON US.

I love how our troll pretends he’s the most listeningly listeny listener who ever listened, with a degree in Listenology from Listening University:

Have you ever heard of the word ‘No’?

How about ‘Stop’?

All young ladies should know these words. I do.

….before proceeding to lecture us all nonstop about what women want and completely ignoring/overriding/discounting everyone else’s perspective.

I’m sure he’s similarly respectful and heeding when he’s escalating his numerous dates up to the hayloft at Quantico.

Nitram
Nitram
6 years ago

Oh, David. I really liked this post! You word things so well. I know that’s a lame compliment, but you’re just so good at articulating what is wrong and why. These “game” fucknuts are so exhasperatingly predictable and boring. This is no mysterious formula secret they’re peddling. It’s the same bullshit for centuries and it’s grounded firmly in the FEAR of a woman’s enthusiastic consent. Verbalizing what you want frankly seems to be more of a turn off to PUA* types than women. Projection anyone?

I have never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, been turned off by a guy “checking in” during “escalation” – quite the opposite. I have, however, had more obligatory sex with dates where I felt I “owed” him sex because I “started” the making out, or chose the secluded venue, or even if he had done most of the driving or paid for everything, than I would like to admit. I was never pressured into sex directly but I was definitely saturated in the culture of women oweing sex to men for *reasons*. And in case there are douchenozzles who want to accuse me of victimizing myself, I take full responsibility for the decisions I made – but with most things, there’s more to it than simply me making my personal decision. Many influences are and were at play and it’s hard to shake the programming.

For instance, hubby and I got in a fight in the early stages of our relationship because he felt uncomfortable having sex with me while I was drunk. I had never encountered that kind of respect before and I saw it as a rejection and had a hard time believing him – like it was an excuse for not wanting me or something. It was and still is the first relationship I’ve ever been in where sex has absolutely nothing to do with obligation or pressure to “give it up”. I’ll tell you what, the vibe I get from someone who wants to fuck me, and my feelings on the matter aren’t important, will turn me OFF like you wouldn’t believe and make me want to get away.

Sorry about the wall o’ text.

*autocorrect wanted to chage PUA into “puss”. Quite fitting!

Nitram
Nitram
6 years ago

CLOUDIAH!!!

“Aren’t middle-aged married farmers more like “alfalfas?”

(It had to be said.)”

You are rad. I love you.

cloudiah
6 years ago

Which is particularly weird, because he seems oddly fixated on young things.

cloudiah
6 years ago

And I <3 you too Nitram.

Molly
Molly
6 years ago

Man, maybe it’s a queer thing, but I’d say 100% of my first-time sexual encounters start with, at the very least, “hey, you wanna make out?” with like a “wow, wanna move this to the bed?” in the middle somewhere. At minimum! But my straight friends do seem to think talking about it = bad and wrong. After reading lots of Cosmockings at the Pervocracy, I’m inclined to blame Cosmo-style straight culture. I hope everyone can escape that shit in my lifetime.

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